PC gamestage and progression, punative to crafters for no reason

[Spudbar]

Lets make a test:
Can I build from day 1? Yes

Can I build everything from day 1? No

Can I craft from day 1? Yes

Can I craft everything from day 1? No

Can I shoot from day 1? Yes

Can I shoot with the best weapons (including mods and perks) from day 1? No

Can I scavenge from day 1? Yes

Can I scavenge ultrafast and the best stuff from day 1? No and no(t likely)

This game has a progression and every playstyle has to work up from bottom. So if this is a punishment, everyone is punished. And this will surely not change.

Just give yourself 100k exp points from the creative menue.

You know this would all still be true if all you could craft was wooden frames and you couldn't upgrade them, right?

Looking at only the extremes and nothing inbetween makes for a pointless argument. It's such a broad angle that it means nothing. This entire list is literally:

Do I have access to an extremely basic game functionality at day 1?: Yes

Do I have access to absolutely all the most powerful end-game content at day 1: No

What are you trying to prove with that? How about we actually look at what the game is actually like in reality.

You can build reinforced concrete on day 1.

You can't build certain basic wood tiles (which are, for the most part, purely cosmetic and don't serve a specific purpose) on day 1. Instead you have to be level 30, bank several points into Intelligence, and unlock the table saw to craft these things.

You can craft absolute basic necessities on day 1, as well as (for some reason) end-game stuff like rebar and concrete mix.

You can't even slather some aloe cream onto a piece of cloth until you're level 30, nor make iron tools until level 20. Iron tools, which, people really only want so they don't have to spend their entire A17 playtime hitting rocks and trees with a flimsy stone hatchet. Which for some reason, other people seem to view as a crime.

Why is that, by the way? Is that really your idea of fun? Forcing people to grind it out with stone tools, or grind out zombies to get to iron? It's tedious and boring either way. All it has done is make the game linear and stale. That's really what you think the standard experience should be like?

 

[TheMouldyCheese]

Sorry but this post adds nothing to the discussion and is a personal attack on that guy for no reason... this is exactly the kind of ♥♥♥♥ that guy is upset about...

So you just made a pointless post to say my post adds nothing to the discussion.

I am in fact trying to stick up for the poor guy who you and this angry fella jumped on. Stop trying to shift the focus. You all need to chill and discuss like adults.

I'd like to remind you that you and him both personally attacked the pic poster in question. So youve gotr no leg to stand on buddy.

 

[WolfyBlah]

You may not have said specifically those details, but you told him his base looked like ♥♥♥♥ and questioned how he could play with those lower tier materials. The toxicity on this forum is unreal. Some guy posts a pic of his base and 3 damn people all throw ♥♥♥♥ at him.

To be fair his base does look like ♥♥♥♥, its a brick cube... and i didnt question how he could play with those materials, i questioned his assumption that everyone wants to play with those materials.

 

[SnowDog1942]

Your argument makes no sense at all, if you enjoy killing zombies but dont want them to incrementaly get more difficult that is a completely sepreate issue to whats being discussed here and yoy should probably make your own thread.

Maybe if you want to craft and make the horde nights harder and sleepers harder quicker you should make a new thread - because if you want to increase your gamestage quicker by crafting.. THAT is what you are asking for - my good friend.

I hope to see you whining about difficult horde nights when your crafting exp gets buffed as they have already stated will be happening a dozen times.

 

[Amotaraso]

You may not have said specifically those details, but you told him his base looked like ♥♥♥♥ and questioned how he could play with those lower tier materials. The toxicity on this forum is unreal. Some guy posts a pic of his base and 3 damn people all throw ♥♥♥♥ at him.

The guy calls everyone a cry baby for playing the game the way it encourage you to play it.

Yeah I'm not popping a blood vessel over it, but I ain't taking the crap either

Trying to shape a good game in the better direction. Don't need the offensive manner to be a part of it.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Maybe if you want to craft and make the horde nights harder and sleepers harder quicker you should make a new thread - because if you want to increase your gamestage quicker by crafting.. THAT is what you are asking for - my good friend.
I hope to see you whining about difficult horde nights when your crafting exp gets buffed as they have already stated a dozen times.

Again i will repest myself, i wont be playing a17, and not once have i asked for gamestsge to advance quicker for crafters, thats what YOU want.

If iv asked for anything its for less recipes to be locked behind the perk system and a high level grind.

 

[SnowDog1942]

Again i will repest myself, i wont be playing a17, and not once have i asked for gamestsge to advance quicker for crafters, thats what YOU want.If iv asked for anything its for less recipes to be locked behind the perk system and a high level grind.

But the gamestage WILL advance quicker for crafters if you get more experience.. that's the change they are making to help you level and unlock stuff quicker.

I guess it doesn't matter since you won't be playing so... yea.. you win

 

[TheMouldyCheese]

The guy calls everyone a cry baby for playing the game the way it encourage you to play it.Yeah I'm not popping a blood vessel over it, but I ain't taking the crap either

Trying to shape a good game in the better direction. Don't need the offensive manner to be a part of it.

Then don't take it personally, ignore it. Play your game how you want to play it.

He did make a very valid point, despite calling people crybabies, which I dont actually remember from his post anyway, but still.

 

[WolfyBlah]

So you just made a pointless post to say my post adds nothing to the discussion.
I am in fact trying to stick up for the poor guy who you and this angry fella jumped on. Stop trying to shift the focus. You all need to chill and discuss like adults.

I'd like to remind you that you and him both personally attacked the pic poster in question. So youve gotr no leg to stand on buddy.

I highly doubt an adult would have an issue with me saying his brick cube doesnt meet my aesthetic standards for building, like i pointed out i dont see any real 'building' there, its litteraly a small cube with no thourght paid to aesthetics, i never said his base was ♥♥♥♥, im sure its super effective and zombies faint, i said i thourght it looked ♥♥♥♥.

However you calling people names in another thread and then following them here to continue trying to be a knob to them is hardly in the same vien.

 

[Spudbar]

You may not have said specifically those details, but you told him his base looked like ♥♥♥♥ and questioned how he could play with those lower tier materials. The toxicity on this forum is unreal. Some guy posts a pic of his base and 3 damn people all throw ♥♥♥♥ at him.

He also called everyone crybabies because he expects them to do nothing but hits trees and rocks for 21 hours like he did. They're responding with insults because they were just insulted.

Nothing about hitting trees or rocks has changed since A16, other than it takes a much longer time to do so. Expecting anyone to spend that many hours doing something so tedious is insane. Especially when there are tons of brand new POIs out there that people want to explore.

If that's how he/she wants to play then good for them. But from a game design perspective, if that's the way you're expected to play - hitting inanimate objects for 10+ hours just to have a decent setup - that's absolutely asinine. That's like asking people to watch paint dry and calling them crybabies if they don't enjoy it.

They're telling people, literally, don't fight zombies. Don't clear POIs. Don't do the part of the game that is engaging. Don't explore any of the new content. Then blames them for doing so, insults them, and then shows off his weirdly specific, ultra boring meta strategy as if that should be the norm.

Are you really going to come in here and tell people to respond nicely after that? Like this guy did nothing wrong?

 

[TheMouldyCheese]

I highly doubt an adult would have an issue with me saying his brick cube doesnt meet my aesthetic standards for building, like i pointed out i dont see any real 'building' there, its litteraly a small cube with no thourght paid to aesthetics, i never said his base was ♥♥♥♥, im sure its super effective and zombies faint, i said i thourght it looked ♥♥♥♥.
However you calling people names in another thread and then following them here to continue trying to be a knob to them is hardly in the same vien.

Like i said, if it works, it works. Its to protect him against a blood moon horde. It doesn't need to be aesthetically pleasing. He can put work into his actual home base and make that aesthetically pleasing. His horde base just needs to be functional and keep him alive.

Saying something is ♥♥♥♥ and something looks like ♥♥♥♥ is very similar my friend.

As for me calling him names in another thread and following him here....honestly no idea what you're on about. I think you may have me confused with someone?

 

[TheMouldyCheese]

Just stop and think for a second, you have it the wrong way around and so does 99% of the player base which is why they are changing XP in the next build because builders like me are taking advantage of this loophole.
The game punishes people who like combat and rewards builders.

You get a low amount of XP for not killing anything which means you can keep your gamescore very low and build at your leisure knowing that the bloodmoon horde will pose very little danger. Iron tools & weapons which are easily looted outside of POI's can be repaired without a perk. Finding a forge (traders or gas station) means you can craft iron spikes, iron bars, truss frames and all other types of iron, again without needing perks.

Conversely the player who likes combat and clearing POI's is "rewarded" with higher XP. That player has a high gamescore, very high level, but he/she has been so busy power levelling they haven't build much to help with the base defence.....and then they come on these forums and cry that it is "impossible" to defend your base or they post their cheese AI exploiting base designs thinking they are awesome because their power levelling has "rewarded" them with a very strong BM horde.

This is my base after 21 day BM (singleplayer, default settings), I am level 11. I didn't even use my guns, just wiped them with my compound bow. Like I said though, they are buffing non combat XP because people just cried like a bunch of sheep without thinking that builders had it good in A17, REAL good. GG.

View attachment 25953

So in his post, he makes a very valid point about progression, sure he says people come to the forums and 'cry' but thats a few words in an otherwise solid input to this thread and I didn't even realise he'd said that, probably because I'm not 'crying' about how hard its all become. Sure, its tougher than it was, but I've learned the best way to deal with the difficulty is by picking my fights a bit better and slowing down the power leveling.

It's taken a bit of adapting and a few restarts, but I've kinda got used to it now.

I absolutely agree that more XP needs to be given for other activities as killing Z's is the quickest way to level right now and understandably, thats what people are doing.

I'm not sure if hes been acting worse anywhere else on the forum as I've not seen his name before.

Theres also a huge difference in him saying that, and several people all jumping on him saying his base looks like ♥♥♥♥, and insulting him for his slow progression.

 

[Jedo]

After 5 minutes i think i got it.. are you trying to say that if you only build using low tier materials and by using crap tools then you have the advantage of the game not actually progressing? Thats just exploting the ♥♥♥♥ty gamestage calculation... and not a solution or fun, building somthing pretty with a wide range of blocks is fun.

I will say it again: I think you just want to play Minecraft. Creative mode might be the place for you.

Your argument makes no sense at all, if you enjoy killing zombies but dont want them to incrementaly get more difficult that is a completely sepreate issue to whats being discussed here and yoy should probably make your own thread.

Oh, God, not another thread about this stuff...

 

[WolfyBlah]

So in his post, he makes a very valid point about progression, sure he says people come to the forums and 'cry' but thats a few words in an otherwise solid input to this thread and I didn't even realise he'd said that, probably because I'm not 'crying' about how hard its all become. Sure, its tougher than it was, but I've learned the best way to deal with the difficulty is by picking my fights a bit better and slowing down the power leveling. It's taken a bit of adapting and a few restarts, but I've kinda got used to it now.

I absolutely agree that more XP needs to be given for other activities as killing Z's is the quickest way to level right now and understandably, thats what people are doing.

I'm not sure if hes been acting worse anywhere else on the forum as I've not seen his name before.

Theres also a huge difference in him saying that, and several people all jumping on him saying his base looks like ♥♥♥♥, and insulting him for his slow progression.

Iv already stated my opinon on the XP gain and its irrelevant to this issue, wether zombies give 1 or a mil exp and digging gives 1 or a mil exp dosent matter, whatever the grind is (digging 100 blocks or killing 100 zombies) its ♥♥♥♥ for those that want to craft thier own tools instesd of find them when in the previous alpha there was no grind associated with making iron tools (beyond the resource cost of forge/axe, which are fine gates on thier own)

You will notice i havent once said anything about the difficulty of this alpha so dont tell me im whinging about it when its a topic i havent spoken on.

I didnt view my saying his progression was slow as an insult and if he takes it that way... sorry? It is slow compared to what i would expect someone on day 22 to be at.

To be frank people seem to be confusing building a brick that can survive horde night as the only building in the game when for me (and i would assume others) building is as much about making somthing pretty as it is about making somthing functional.

 

[TheMouldyCheese]

Iv already stated my opinon on the XP gain and its irrelevant to this issue, wether zombies give 1 or a mil exp and digging gives 1 or a mil exp dosent matter, whatever the grind is (digging 100 blocks or killing 100 zombies) its ♥♥♥♥ for those that want to craft thier own tools instesd of find them when in the previous alpha there was no grind associated with making iron tools (beyond the resource cost of forge/axe, which are fine gates on thier own)
You will notice i havent once said anything about the difficulty of this alpha so dont tell me im whinging about it when its a topic i havent spoken on.

I didnt view my saying his progression was slow as an insult and if he takes it that way... sorry? It is slow compared to what i would expect someone on day 22 to be at.

To be frank people seem to be confusing building a brick that can survive horde night as the only building in the game when for me (and i would assume others) building is as much about making somthing pretty as it is about making somthing functional.

Actually the XP gain is somewhat relevant as that relates to your gamestage.

Much Zombie killing = quick XP gain = faster gamestage progression

Less zombie killing = lower xp gain = slower gamestage progression

In addition, I did agree wholeheartedly that there needs to be more XP gain in other areas. Or it needs to be balanced at least.

I don't see anywhere in my post where I personally accused you (or anyone in fact) of whinging about difficulty. I even added a few things that helped me overcome the the initial difficulty curve I encountered.

Yes, his building/leveling progression may be slower than some (yourself included) but why does that matter to you?

Building something pretty is nice, sure, but for a building specifically for a zombie horde night, it seems a bit pointless as its quite likely it will be damaged, putting all your hard work to waste. I would personally stick with functionality over aesthetics for a horde building as to me, it seems like the most sensible option.

If you have a great functional and pretty build, please share with the community, we're all still in the stages of working out what works best so any suggestions would be most welcome.

 

[WolfyBlah]

I will say it again: I think you just want to play Minecraft. Creative mode might be the place for you.


Oh, God, not another thread about this stuff...

Please stop telling me to go play another game (especially a strictly inferior game with a much younger target audiance) i find it kind of insulting and it dosent really add much to the thread, i have been able to build pretty structures in 7days throughout the alphas.

Another thread about a completely diffrent topic, his

'I want to fight zombies and not have gamestage increase' VS 'getting punished with higher gamestage for playing as the game intends to unlock basic tools sucks'

He wants gamestage to not increase through zombie killing, i want tools to be craft able without the need to grind player levels.

 

[mr.devolver]

This is offtopic but you clearly hurt yourself and your credibility everytime you feel the urge to add something along the lines of "I won't play anymore if this is still a thing". I see it so often, you're the one that gets my reaction, sorry for that. But seriously start considering what those kind of sentences trigger to whoever reads you. Hint : it's nothing close to "oh my god no, we'll revert everything so you stay !".
Regarding the zombie killing experience, it's a WIP, they will reduce the exp you gain from zombies and increase the exp you gain from doing other stuff.

I'm also a bit disappointed about the new content, specifically end game content (was eagerly awaiting bandits), but stretching early game is something good in a survival game. You're just not used to it, and maybe it got a bit "overdone". But there's not a single game out there that brands itself as a "survival game" where you run around with iron tools and build huge castles day 1, for a reason.

There's nothing wrong about saying "I won't play this game anymore" if it's supported by actual reasons why he decided to stop playing. It's called player's feedback. Also it's a WIP and while they talked about the need of better balancing, they never actually mentioned how exactly are they going to balance it, which is one of the reasons why players should provide their feedback to say exactly: This is good, this is bad and this is not acceptable at all.

Every developer must ask this question sooner or later: Am I doing this just for myself or for all those other people out there? Because we all may like different things and better balancing also means to find compromise for everyone. It would be impossible to achieve that without player's feedback. Sure there are many developers who just develop and release their game without consulting their decisions with their fans and instead they consult with the publisher, but The Fun Pimps are the ones who decided to get the players involved in the first place to get the funds for development. Keep in mind that we are the investors and they are here to convince us that our investment was a good one. Sorry, but if you don't like that your investor tells you what to do to improve, because you think you know the best, I say good luck trying to find a new investor for your project. And if someone says that the game is already funded anyway, well the future projects are not and people will remember what kind of experience they had the last time.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Actually the XP gain is somewhat relevant as that relates to your gamestage. Much Zombie killing = quick XP gain = faster gamestage progression

Less zombie killing = lower xp gain = slower gamestage progression

I dont see anywhere in my post where I personally accused you of whinging about difficulty.

Yes, his building/levelling progression may be slower than some (yourself included) but why does that matter to you?

Building something pretty is nice, sure, but for a building specifically for a zombie horde night, it seems a bit pointless as its quite likely it will be damaged, putting all your hard work to waste. I would personally stick with functionality over aesthetics for a horde building as to me, it seems like the most sensible option.

The reason i dont view the exp gain as relevant to this discussion is because no matter how slow of fast we get past that hurdle the game is still going to get more difficult after we unlock this basic crafting recipe whilever its gated behind a lot of leveling, it shouldnt be gated in this manner at all.

Im not talking about how fast the game stage progresses currently (Devs acknowlaged this is an issue)

There have been a few gems of good suggestions in this thread, a player asking for gates to be dynamic and based on player skill instead of his characters skill is excellent IMO.

For me getting the none gimped version of the tools should not mean an increase in zombie difficulty, what do the two have to do with each other? Nothing... however if you play XYZ way and loot/trade the tools there isnt any increase in difficulty, if you craft them (need to level) there is.

The harvest system completely blows too, leveling up perks (and difficulty) so you dont get gimped ammount of resources for the same ammount of effort is not fun in the slightest

It matters not a jot to me how fast or slow his progression is, what does matter to me is that EVEYONES progression in slower in this alpha. (Again)

Thats a difference in playstyle/opinon, my horde bases tend to be my living space as well, logic being that building and defending two structures is more work than one, i like the challenge of the horde potentially costing me more than a bare bones horde base too but either way both options have thier merits and it really dosent matter.

I have no builds to share, im not playing a17 and like i stated earlier will continue plsying a modifyed version of 16.4, this alpha is clearly not aimed at me so why should i suffer through these new mechanics snd ssystems, i just hope theres a way to port the new AI over as thsts the ony thing in the alpha so far with any real merit.

 

[Amotaraso]

To be frank people seem to be confusing building a brick that can survive horde night as the only building in the game when for me (and i would assume others) building is as much about making somthing pretty as it is about making somthing functional.

I'm very much on this boat

I like all the aspects. I like killing zombies, I like looting, I enjoy gathering/mining, and I LOVE crafting/building.

I think that's sort of why this state of the Alpha is confusing to a lot of people, myself included, which is also why I made my topic for about the whole subject. It was to make a change. And a fair reason, as I had no idea what the plan was. The RWG mixer is a massive issue to me, and I thought it was sort of final. Then Roland said: "No it's definitely not - it's WIP". Alright great! Now I know.

I think right now, balancing the XP gain, and readjusting the level gates (to an extend remove some completely) would do a lot. And I'm quite sure that's what they will do soon. It would be a good start at least.

 

[WolfyBlah]

I'm very much on this boat
I like all the aspects. I like killing zombies, I like looting, I enjoy gathering/mining, and I LOVE crafting/building.

I think that's sort of why this state of the Alpha is confusing to a lot of people, myself included, which is also why I made my topic for about the whole subject. It was to make a change. And a fair reason, as I had no idea what the plan was. The RWG mixer is a massive issue to me, and I thought it was sort of final. Then Roland said: "No it's definitely not - it's WIP". Alright great! Now I know.

I think right now, balancing the XP gain, and readjusting the level gates (to an extend remove some completely) would do a lot. And I'm quite sure that's what they will do soon. It would be a good start at least.

Yeah i also enjoy fighting zombies and looting... but i want to want to do those things, not have then be the only way to progress (now with the addition of mods into the mix looting is needed to make yor tools not take an unmanageable ammount ofstamina per swing too, hope these get rebalanced to be available to craft as well instead of being loot locked (RNG sucks when you have to serch every loot container in the game before you can mine effectivly)