PC gamestage and progression, punative to crafters for no reason

[fazi]

I don't think it's intentionally this way to punish a certain playstyle. It's just simply not balanced very well AT ALL in this current state. The end-game is even worse as far as enjoyment for me - you are just sooo OP now when you start maxing out perks - it's not even funny. You're gonna have to really crank the difficulty or possibly even mod the zombie hand damage cause you can just stand there and let a zombie beat on you long enough to microwave a burrito before you even die with your armor and perks maxed.
Your situation is somewhat easy to combat - you could just go loot around for some cars and you'll find Iron tools relatively quickly. The loot is another unbalanced part of the game right now and you'll find virtually all the tools you need. Then just go out into the forest and within a few mins of running around you'll find a forge house. You can make forged iron to repair the tools and there you go..

Everyone can really play as it wants, just not from day one.And that is normal.You want a big base, fine , by day 100 for sure you can have one.On A16, by day 100, you had like nothing left to do,Now, for example, i am using iron arows, cause i dont have steel yet.On a16 i used to jump directly from stone to steel.

Today, while looting a random horde apeared, and found me inside the POI i was upstairs.On A16, once you cleared the POI, you were safe. Now, when entering a POI, i have to think if i can do it or is to much for my lvl, on A16 i used to loot the skyscrapers with stone arrows and wooden club.Now, when i loot a can of food, i am happy, on A16 i just used to scrap them cause i had tons of food at home.

The game, its just much better now, yes it needs some balancing, yes some gates needs to be reduced or uped, but the game is much better.Just don't expect everything from day one as it used to be.

 

[fazi]

To further my point a bit more:Gamestage and XP are systems that dont make sense.

The smartest way to play a survival game is to AVOID danger (in this case, zombies) and yet if they provide xp which you need to be able to progress... its a catch 22 situation where you are damned if you do and damned if you dont.

if you wanna play this game and totally avoid zombies, disable zombie spawn.This is not pure survival, is crafting, survival, building , killing zombies! Zombies are a core part of this game.Don't tell me you want to power level by mining....You can still lvl by crafting/building/mining/harvesting, but that does not have tobe the main way to lvl !

 

[HerrKingsley]

@fazi They could also hav given us real endgame content instead of chores. I bet that would have made you happy too.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Everyone can really play as it wants, just not from day one.And that is normal.You want a big base, fine , by day 100 for sure you can have one.On A16, by day 100, you had like nothing left to do,Now, for example, i am using iron arows, cause i dont have steel yet.On a16 i used to jump directly from stone to steel.Today, while looting a random horde apeared, and found me inside the POI i was upstairs.On A16, once you cleared the POI, you were safe. Now, when entering a POI, i have to think if i can do it or is to much for my lvl, on A16 i used to loot the skyscrapers with stone arrows and wooden club.Now, when i loot a can of food, i am happy, on A16 i just used to scrap them cause i had tons of food at home.

The game, its just much better now, yes it needs some balancing, yes some gates needs to be reduced or uped, but the game is much better.Just don't expect everything from day one as it used to be.

Please check yor logic and assumptions, seems like a lot of people (including the developers) rarely play beyond the point they 'have everything' because they are bored/the game is over? My games do not end when i reach what you would consider endgame, that is when my game STARTS because im done with the level gates and assosiated crap. The 'early game' is the worst part of playing 7days for me (at least since the implementation of skills, item quality, ect)

Id say the game in this alpha is a hell of a lot worse than previous in terms of the ammount of fun i personaly draw from the game, stretching out the 'you suck' part of the game just means its all the longer until the fun part of the game actualy begins.

Im not into cheap deaths and scares caused by bad mechanics and systems (3D sound hasnt worked correctly on and off between alphas and even when the 3d elements did work some sounds just do not play when they are supposed to.)

 

[WolfyBlah]

if you wanna play this game and totally avoid zombies, disable zombie spawn.This is not pure survival, is crafting, survival, building , killing zombies! Zombies are a core part of this game.Don't tell me you want to power level by mining....You can still lvl by crafting/building/mining/harvesting, but that does not have tobe the main way to lvl !

You missed the point completely.

yes zombies are a core part of the game so telling me to disable them or play creative is NOT helpful in the slightest, i was merely pointing out that avoidance of zombies should be a valid gameplay option and i would argue is actualy more fun than just running around mindlessly killing.

If you re read what i have written you will see that im not asking for harvesting to be the main way to level in the slightest, im asking for a wide variety of gameplay styles to be acceptable, someone wants to spend all thier time playing whack a zombie? Thats fine by me, someone else wants to mine all day and night? Also fine

There is room for mutliple playstyles without hurting others (the exact point of this thread)

 

[Jedo]

Clearly that is NOT your playstyle since you didnt craft your own tools, you looted them.

Have you ever killed a zombie? If you have, you must be a fighter instead of a builder/crafter.

See how flawed your logic is? (I'm guessing you won't.)

 

[WolfyBlah]

Have you ever killed a zombie? If you have, you must be a fighter instead of a builder/crafter.
See how flawed your logic is? (I'm guessing you won't.)

My logic is not flawed in the slightest, you did not craft your tools (as it stands now its basicly impossible to do so) you had to loot extensively to get those items (unless you found them all in 1 container in whichbcase congrats on being lucky).

So in your 'builder/crafter' play style what did you actualy build/craft?

This is getting off topic regardless, the point im making is that those who want to craft tools have a completely diffrent experiance to those who find them, lets change up the example to a steel fireaxe, one player loots one on day one, another crafts one on day 60+?

Its completely lobsided, the player who wants to craft his steel axe has to play for hours and hours on end with the game spawning ever tougher zombies meanwhile the lucky looter person is on base game difficulty?

Crafting is supposed to be a fundamental part of the game but right now it is so heavily level locked (and by extension punished) that its just not an option.

How would people feel if items you cannot craft are removed from the loot pool? Eg you cant find steel tools as loot until you can make steel tools. Not a great solution IMO but at least its *somthing*.

 

[Jedo]

I always begin by finding a POI which I can fortify early on (been doing this for a few alphas), and I loot the surrounding area so that I have food. In that looting, I might find useful stuff that I don't have to craft on my own. That's usually my first week, and I mine/craft at night in the fortified POI. As I get materials, I build a big base nearby. No sense hanging out in the open before it's usable, hence the POI.

And your logic will continue to be flawed if you think in binaries and absolutes. Just saying.

 

[WolfyBlah]

I always begin by finding a POI which I can fortify early on (been doing this for a few alphas), and I loot the surrounding area so that I have food. In that looting, I might find useful stuff that I don't have to craft on my own. That's usually my first week, and I mine/craft at night in the fortified POI. As I get materials, I build a big base nearby. No sense hanging out in the open before it's usable, hence the POI.
And your logic will continue to be flawed if you think in binaries and absolutes. Just saying.

So you always begin by fortifying a POI, i do not consider that to be a 'builder/crafter'. To me that means someone who builds there own structure straight away, who crafts items to help them survive.

Infact what you have described makes me this of a looter playstyle more than anything

In previous alphas it was possible to craft your own tools to a better quality than you can realistically find as loot currently you cannot craft them at all due to arbitrary level locks

 

[Doctor3D]

Your solution is not very helpful, i could also just open the creative menu and give myself the tools, or edit the XMLs or any number of other 'solutions' but thats not the point of this exercise, the point is for the developers to hopefully see that thier current implementation of the perk system is forcing one playstyle over another.

That is much different than what I suggested. But, sure you could do that as well..Why not. When playing Alpha games, you're often gonna have to get a bit creative in getting the game to play like you want. That's just the nature of it. Nothing is ever balanced very well. That's just how it is.

The fact that this game is as fun as it is even when it's in a constant flux of change and updates is testament to something. Most early access games I play are just things I've bought to support them - but only desire to play them maybe a few hours after each update to see the progress.

I somewhat agree with your point though - but just don't think it was intentional. But, you're 100% right in that the game is currently more geared to just a shut-em-up and the building and crafting is definitely a slower progression. You can still do all that, it's just that it takes much longer to get anywhere. But even the 'shoot-em-up' is imbalanced in itself - as you get so overpowered that by the time you're truly base-building - you can already survive a lot of horde night just running around blasting them.

We survived a relatively high gamestage horde just running around in the Navezgane hospital - going from room to room shooting sleepers and the blood moon hordes coming in. There was three of us on different floors most of the time just rampaging through there like it was nothing. No sense for a base. The game is just not balanced, yet. Just have to have patience.

 

[WolfyBlah]

People seem to be under the impression that people want everything from day1 when that isnt the case at all, people (in this case me) want steel tools ASAP because of the ♥♥♥♥tarded harvest system where you get ludicrous ammounts more from resource harvesting based on tool type/perks

For me who likes to build... i wont do it with gimped tools because it is TEDIOUS, building in this game is slow to begin with, adding unmanageable stamina together with weak tools and having no acess to recipes does not make for fun experiance.

 

[Katitof]

People seem to be under the impression that people want everything from day1 when that isnt the case at all, people (in this case me) want steel tools ASAP because of the ♥♥♥♥tarded harvest system where you get ludicrous ammounts more from resource harvesting based on tool type/perks
For me who likes to build... i wont do it with gimped tools because it is TEDIOUS, building in this game is slow to begin with, adding unmanageable stamina together with weak tools and having no acess to recipes does not make for fun experiance.

And.... why do you need early crafting ability of them again?

Traders are a thing and that stuff isn't uncommon when it comes to loot.

You are as limited as you limit your options yourself in A17, I know, its mind blowing, but tools from traders work just as fine.

 

[WolfyBlah]

That is much different than what I suggested. But, sure you could do that as well..Why not. When playing Alpha games, you're often gonna have to get a bit creative in getting the game to play like you want. That's just the nature of it. Nothing is ever balanced very well. That's just how it is.
The fact that this game is as fun as it is even when it's in a constant flux of change and updates is testament to something. Most early access games I play are just things I've bought to support them - but only desire to play them maybe a few hours after each update to see the progress.

I somewhat agree with your point though - but just don't think it was intentional. But, you're 100% right in that the game is currently more geared to just a shut-em-up and the building and crafting is definitely a slower progression. You can still do all that, it's just that it takes much longer to get anywhere. But even the 'shoot-em-up' is imbalanced in itself - as you get so overpowered that by the time you're truly base-building - you can already survive a lot of horde night just running around blasting them.

We survived a relatively high gamestage horde just running around in the Navezgane hospital - going from room to room shooting sleepers and the blood moon hordes coming in. There was three of us on different floors most of the time just rampaging through there like it was nothing. No sense for a base. The game is just not balanced, yet. Just have to have patience.

Im truely glad you are enjoying the game as it developes, its my own personal thing that the fun of the game has dimished with each alpha (mostly because of systems designed to draw out the early game as long as possible with no actual new content added)

Unfortunately this went beyond a balance issue a long time ago for me as core gameplay systems have changed dramticly turning this into a game i just dont want to play, i get that the developers are massive fallout fans but that dosent mean everybody who plays 7days is, personally find the fallout games completely horrible to try and play... so i dont

 

[WolfyBlah]

And.... why do you need early crafting ability of them again?Traders are a thing and that stuff isn't uncommon when it comes to loot.

You are as limited as you limit your options yourself in A17, I know, its mind blowing, but tools from traders work just as fine.

Because this is a crafting game... i want to be able to craft things in a crafting game, i know, its mind blowing.

Traders (and how much they have been hamfisted into the game) are not a valid replacement for the abilty to craft a tool. Looting is not a valid replacement for the abilty to craft a tool.

This entire thread has been about how the crafting elements of the game have been taken hostage to be replaced with 'just get lucky with loot or get lucky with traders' I dont want to rely on luck... i want to be able to craft the tools i need to enjoy the game without an asinine grind attached.

You know you are right, tools looted or bourght from the trader work just fine... so why cant i craft them? Theres no reason for the abilty to craft them to be so heavily punished while trading or looting them isnt.

Rember when 7d2d was the 'survival horde crafting game'

Where are we now? 'The trading looting survival and maybe some crafting in 50hours game'? :/

 

[Jedo]

So you always begin by fortifying a POI, i do not consider that to be a 'builder/crafter'. To me that means someone who builds there own structure straight away, who crafts items to help them survive.
Infact what you have described makes me this of a looter playstyle more than anything

In previous alphas it was possible to craft your own tools to a better quality than you can realistically find as loot currently you cannot craft them at all due to arbitrary level locks

Your way of seeing things makes no sense. Just because I loot in the first week (because, you know, you don't start with anything) doesn't make me a "looter." Again, if you kill any zombies ever, you must be a fighter.

If you are going to have only the narrowest definitions of things, you could call me a "pragmatic builder." I know that I can't build great stuff right out of the gate, so I supplement just a bit. I usually have a working base up before the second horde night. Once I can craft my own things, I do that (which usually is steel tools unless I got super lucky).

People seem to be under the impression that people want everything from day1 when that isnt the case at all, people (in this case me) want steel tools ASAP because of the ♥♥♥♥tarded harvest system where you get ludicrous ammounts more from resource harvesting based on tool type/perks
For me who likes to build... i wont do it with gimped tools because it is TEDIOUS, building in this game is slow to begin with, adding unmanageable stamina together with weak tools and having no acess to recipes does not make for fun experiance.

This is hilarious. "I don't want everything day1...just the most advanced tools which will allow me to get everything else." Riiiiight.

I mean, I want steel tools because they make life easier, but being a survival game, I know that I will have to work for them. Since I don't start with them, I will have to do some tedious mining and building. That's part of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Because this is a crafting game... i want to be able to craft things in a crafting game, i know, its mind blowing.

No, it's a survival game with crafting elements. Minecraft is a crafting game. I suggest you go play that.

 

[SnowDog1942]

This is hilarious. "I don't want everything day1...just the most advanced tools which will allow me to get everything else." Riiiiight.

LOL nice... that is what he was saying to... that's great.

I mean.. I get where he is coming from. I'm a fighter and the only thing I ask for on Day 1 is the best possible guns and all mods for them. I know the rest of it will take some time.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Your way of seeing things makes no sense. Just because I loot in the first week (because, you know, you don't start with anything) doesn't make me a "looter." Again, if you kill any zombies ever, you must be a fighter.
If you are going to have only the narrowest definitions of things, you could call me a "pragmatic builder." I know that I can't build great stuff right out of the gate, so I supplement just a bit. I usually have a working base up before the second horde night. Once I can craft my own things, I do that (which usually is steel tools unless I got super lucky).

This is hilarious. "I don't want everything day1...just the most advanced tools which will allow me to get everything else." Riiiiight.

I mean, I want steel tools because they make life easier, but being a survival game, I know that I will have to work for them. Since I don't start with them, I will have to do some tedious mining and building. That's part of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

No, it's a survival game with crafting elements. Minecraft is a crafting game. I suggest you go play that.

The only none tedious tools in the game (comming from someone who played before steel tier items where even a thing (they are probably actualy less powerful than the old iron tools where)) is not 'everything in the game' its 3 or so items that make the game less tedious and grindy

 

[fazi]

Please check yor logic and assumptions, seems like a lot of people (including the developers) rarely play beyond the point they 'have everything' because they are bored/the game is over? My games do not end when i reach what you would consider endgame, that is when my game STARTS because im done with the level gates and assosiated crap. The 'early game' is the worst part of playing 7days for me (at least since the implementation of skills, item quality, ect)
Id say the game in this alpha is a hell of a lot worse than previous in terms of the ammount of fun i personaly draw from the game, stretching out the 'you suck' part of the game just means its all the longer until the fun part of the game actualy begins.

Im not into cheap deaths and scares caused by bad mechanics and systems (3D sound hasnt worked correctly on and off between alphas and even when the 3d elements did work some sounds just do not play when they are supposed to.)

We all play beyond :having everything:

I use to build very large bases, roads etc, and that is still possible, later in game.

Entering a POI, that is to high for your current level, your current weapons and dying is something normal.Let's say, you only like the crafting/building part of this game, that is still possible, it just takes longer.Even making invincible bases is still possible, underground bases are still possible, nothing have been taken away from the game, it just take longer to reach it.

Mae be you like to stay in your base crafting and ignoring the zombies hitting your walls, but i like to get out and defend the wall.I like to be in a mine and listen for zombies. Wanna play the same A16 story with invincible bases , it is still possible

 

[WolfyBlah]

The new modding system is a topic for another thread that id rather not get into tonight, for now i will say this about it:

Its a system that has potential however in its current half finished sloppy state adds nothing to my gameplay

Iv only seen one 'mod' to fill one slot on any given tool, the 'ergonmic grip'.

And again these items are heavily locked off from being able to craft them, infact if i understand correctly you need to loot a schematic (single use) to craft them.... so now i have to loot a ♥♥♥♥ ton before my tools dont suck as well as leveling up a million times to be able to craft the tools in the first place...

Now if mods could be a learned perk (why the hell not, everything else is) and we could specialize (the whole idea behind perks, no?) So i could craft them at a reasonable level...

 

[WolfyBlah]

We all play beyond :having everything: I use to build very large bases, roads etc, and that is still possible, later in game.

Entering a POI, that is to high for your current level, your current weapons and dying is something normal.Let's say, you only like the crafting/building part of this game, that is still possible, it just takes longer.Even making invincible bases is still possible, underground bases are still possible, nothing have been taken away from the game, it just take longer to reach it.

Mae be you like to stay in your base crafting and ignoring the zombies hitting your walls, but i like to get out and defend the wall.I like to be in a mine and listen for zombies. Wanna play the same A16 story with invincible bases , it is still possible

Sure its still possible to build later in the game... at a quater of the speed we could on early alphas...

That aside bases in a16 where never invicible (beyond abusing ai flaws ect) i had many times where hordes broke through defenses and this is a core aspect of the game for me... i dont build bases the AI cant overcome

The reason people felt bases were invicble in a16 was the crappy gamestage system and the hordes being overall lackluster.

gamestage decides what spawns and this has caused nothing but lame 7th day hordes since it was implemented.

And no, we dont *all* play beyond the point we have everything, many players dont and several times staff have stated in posts on these forums that they themseleves usualy dont.

As far as this obession with levels being super important to wether you can enter a POI or not... thats never been the case in previous alphas and a strict RPG like system like that kills any joy in looting for me

... if we have never seen xyz poi before and theres no floating text above it saying 'level 100'... how the hell are we supposed to know what us too high level or not?