PC gamestage and progression, punative to crafters for no reason

Ok. So if TFP suddenly made all zombies friendly, and will never attack a player, would you then be happy with the final result? If the answer is "yes" then I follow your logic (though disagree with it). If your answer is "no" then you're also not suited for early access games as well. And then none of us are are likely suited for an early access type of game along that reasoning just because we might disagree with the final result.
Many people that I talk to come from the view that:

1) I knew I could build, I enjoyed it, and taking it away makes the final game much less interesting for me.

2) If I had seen this game in the final stage without the building aspect, without knowing it was possible before, I would find it less interesting.

People can have one or the other or both views, and they're equally valid. Why wouldn't they be? The final result isn't inherently good just because it's the final result. It can be good or bad, better or worse both in itself and compared to previous versions.
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Your example of making zombies friendly isn't great because that is part of the game which is essential the the "zombie survival" element. A better example might be if they took out the underground altogether. If they did that, ok. It wouldn't be what I would prefer, but I totally would respect it as a design choice. It isn't essential to the game even though it has been in there forever.

My only point about the final product vs. EA is that this matters for when you are making comparisons. Because of it being "alpha," some things are placeholders which wouldn't need to be there if the game wasn't open for public testing. Again, the problems that we have are not necessarily ones that somebody who buys the final product would have. They'll never know the joys (or pains) of having to find a forge book. They'll just know, "I have to get to level 20 before I can get a forge," and there's no reason that it should be a problem for them.

 
Your example of making zombies friendly isn't great because that is part of the game which is essential the the "zombie survival" element. A better example might be if they took out the underground altogether. If they did that, ok. It wouldn't be what I would prefer, but I totally would respect it as a design choice. It isn't essential to the game even though it has been in there forever.
My only point about the final product vs. EA is that this matters for when you are making comparisons. Because of it being "alpha," some things are placeholders which wouldn't need to be there if the game wasn't open for public testing. Again, the problems that we have are not necessarily ones that somebody who buys the final product would have. They'll never know the joys (or pains) of having to find a forge book. They'll just know, "I have to get to level 20 before I can get a forge," and there's no reason that it should be a problem for them.
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Please stop using the 'its an alpha' defense as its actually counter to what you are trying to achive, This an alpha, and early build of the game where core systems are added and iterated on, there is 0 reason for it to take 20 hours for us who are taking a sneak peak the game and submitting bug reports. We are supposed to be restarting often due to updates and patches.

In any development methodology iv ever seen there is a beta phase for stress testing and balancing and these sort of decisions 'how long should it take to get a forge' belong there, remaking that decision over and over is why we have been in alpha for 5 years.

The focus should be on getting the game done and adding cool as ♥♥♥♥ features, why cant i tie 2 chainsaws to a log and attach it to the front if my motorcycle yet?

 
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Please stop using the 'its an alpha' defense as its actually counter to what you are trying to achive, This an alpha, and early build of the game where core systems are added and iterated on, there is 0 reason for it to take 20 hours for us who are taking a sneak peak the game and submitting bug reports. We are supposed to be restarting often due to updates and patches.
In any development methodology iv ever seen there is a beta phase for stress testing and balancing and these sort of decisions 'how long should it take to get a forge' belong there, remaking that decision over and over is why we have been in alpha for 5 years.
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So your only problem with the current level gates is because it's alpha? If they had zero level gates from now until beta, then decided that it needed to be locked behind level 20, you wouldn't have a problem with that?

 
So your only problem with the current level gates is because it's alpha? If they had zero level gates from now until beta, then decided that it needed to be locked behind level 20, you wouldn't have a problem with that?
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All previous progression (skill/level/perk/gate) systems in previous alphas has had flaws. And the recipe for that for TFP seams to be to replace it now and then. I guess they have their reasons but i have never heard why they didn't balance/fix it instead of scraping it and replacing it with a new one.

I will admit that I haven't read all post from devs. But usually you will snap that up through quotes or referring from forum users.

 
So your only problem with the current level gates is because it's alpha? If they had zero level gates from now until beta, then decided that it needed to be locked behind level 20, you wouldn't have a problem with that?
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NO!

My issue is that things there were previously an option are no longer an option as part of the new system, if this system is so 'mod friendly' TFP clearly realize people will want to change it how they wish as more options, more games, more replay value = better product.

If thats the case then where are the options to do so?

"Buuu you can edit XML"

So lets says say i want to remove crafting timers from the game, when i bourght the game it was an option in the main menu, now it requires changing every single crafting recipe in the game.

Okay and i want to change zombies that spawn and thier behaviour, used to be able to set them to never run with a simple option, now... have to remove every feral zombie, footballers, ect.

And this time i want to try the game where zombies ran indoors during the day time because of the light level, im not even sure how to go about trying to do this via the XMLs.

This time i want all zombies to always run, this i can change in the menu easily.

At this point i have to modify and edit probably half the game to do simple ♥♥♥♥ that used to be optional.

How easy would it be for me to go back to having the forge gated behind the forge ahead book?

How easy would it be for me to re-add molds to forging?

And yes id be fine with TFP turning around and saying at release 'we settled on it taking this long to make a forge' because after release people can mod the game anyway they wish.

 
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NO!My issue is that things there were previously an option are no longer an option as part of the new system...
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Dude, you are all over the map. I ask a question, the first word of your post is "no," but then you end up saying "yes." WTF? Also, what does any of that have to do what we have been talking about?

 
For clarity im not saying that i want the forge gated by the forge ahead book, or forging molds back, or anything of the sort, im asking for options.

Ita kind of insulting to be honest, Perk system so we can make 'Choices' affecting how our game plays out, can choose to deal 10% more damage omg thats amazing./S

my choices on how much damage zombies deal, thier hit points, thier behaviour, how much damage the player deals. Used to be made in the game menu

How hard would some of these options be to add (back) into the menu?

- Zombie spawning (what can/cant), damage, hitpoints, behaviour (running, do cops explode? Do zombies jump? Dig? Punch the player or grab them (iv always hated that these zombies want to punch us to death, wouldnt it be cool if there was an option for them to punch us OR grab and bite us?)

-RPG system: off, default, mod1, mod2 (this could ne expanded to 'rulesets')

-Harvest system: on/off

-Biome options, conditions, biome dithering (why hasnt this been re-added, biomes used to blend slowly together and the last few alphas took a step back to jagged lines between them

-crafting & loot timers

as you add a new feature add a way to turn it on/off and assosiated options to it. We have seemingly less and less options as each new alpha adds new features...

 
Thanks for illustrating my point by continuing to talk about a new topic and not answering my questions.

 
Dude, you are all over the map. I ask a question, the first word of your post is "no," but then you end up saying "yes." WTF? Also, what does any of that have to do what we have been talking about?
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Is my *only* problem that they are doing this in alpha? No

Is that part of my issue? Yes

The rest? They are focusing developement time on balancing a leveling/RPG system that ls just going to modded anyway. instead of cool featutes that add more options (and more things for mods to create alternative and re imagined content for)

improve electricity and allow us to make more moving pieces (an odd numbered draw bridge would be amazing, trains and a subway system under a city would make a sick addition to the game.,elevators

(cool for POIs, quests, cool for builders)

 
Is my *only* problem that they are doing this in alpha? NoIs that part of my issue? Yes

The rest? They are focusing developement time on balancing a leveling/RPG system that ls just going to modded anyway. instead of cool featutes that add more options (and more things for mods to create alternative and re imagined content for)

improve electricity and allow us to make more moving pieces (an odd numbered draw bridge would be amazing, trains and a subway system under a city would make a sick addition to the game.,elevators

(cool for POIs, quests, cool for builders)
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So why do we have a whole thread which, ostensibly, is about one alpha's (supposed) punishment of crafters? (And who says that they aren't working on those other things?)

 
So why do we have a whole thread which, ostensibly, is about one alpha's (supposed) punishment of crafters? (And who says that they aren't working on those other things?)
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Because this alpha is punishing for cafters.

It just also happens to havehighlighted other issues.

 
"Buuu you can edit XML"So lets says say i want to remove crafting timers from the game, when i bourght the game it was an option in the main menu, now it requires changing every single crafting recipe in the game.

Okay and i want to change zombies that spawn and thier behaviour, used to be able to set them to never run with a simple option, now... have to remove every feral zombie, footballers, ect.
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WolfyBlah,

I'll be first in line cheering if more and more of the games mechanics - even core mechanics like zombie behaviour - are moved into the XML's (by the way, some of what you're talking about can be done in the XML's already) - but unfortunately, some things will always be beyond that scope.

Hopefully, as the game approaches Gold TFP will spend some time deliberately moving into the XML's what they reasonably can, but I don't know whether there is any specific plan for doing this.

 
Because this alpha is punishing for cafters.
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And yes id be fine with TFP turning around and saying at release 'we settled on it taking this long to make a forge' because after release people can mod the game anyway they wish.
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Except you said that you would be fine with the same "punishments" at Gold because people can mod it. People can mod it now (but you had a serious problem with that). Do you have any credibility right now in your criticisms?

 
WolfyBlah,
I'll be first in line cheering if more and more of the games mechanics - even core mechanics like zombie behaviour - are moved into the XML's (by the way, some of what you're talking about can be done in the XML's already) - but unfortunately, some things will always be beyond that scope.

Hopefully, as the game approaches Gold TFP will spend some time deliberately moving into the XML's what they reasonably can, but I don't know whether there is any specific plan for doing this.
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Regardless Oz, some off the things that once where and option no longer are, even through tweaking the XML, hense my statment in the OP about feeling sort of like the victim of a bait and switch.

Having more and more options in XML is great by the way but they NEED a graphical represtation in game, its unfair to expect all people who bu the game to learn xml in order to change settings.

TFP have recoded a bunch of ♥♥♥♥ between A16 and now to make things tweakable via XML... what a missed opportunity, the steam workshop exsists and ignoreing the benifit it would bring is short sighted at best.

 
Except you said that you would be fine with the same "punishments" at Gold because people can mod it. People can mod it now (but you had a serious problem with that). Do you have any credibility right now in your criticisms?
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We are currently in alpha, beta is the peroid of stress testing and balancing before relase of a full, finished product. Honestly i have not understood TFPs decision on this one, 'yeah we are saying its a fullrelase but not adding some of the kickstar goals until afterwards'

 
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Regardless Oz, some off the things that once where and option no longer are, even through tweaking the XML, hense my statment in the OP about feeling sort of like the victim of a bait and switch.
Having more and more options in XML is great by the way but they NEED a graphical represtation in game, its unfair to expect all people who bu the game to learn xml in order to change settings.

TFP have recoded a bunch of ♥♥♥♥ between A16 and now to make things tweakable via XML... what a missed opportunity, the steam workshop exsists and ignoreing the benifit it would bring is short sighted at best.
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How much the Pimps decide to put into a in-game config menu is up to them of course, but it will always only be a subset of what can be changed in the XML's. I do agree, major options should be in there (though, there will be always differing opinions on what counts as "major"), but for people wanting to really tweak their game settings, the XML's is always going to be the place to go (and indeed, some DLL editing if you want to get really down into the nitty gritty of it all).

Hopefully, some time before Gold, they'll rework and expand the in-game settings menu though.

 
...its unfair to expect all people who bu the game to learn xml in order to change settings.
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I don't suspect that they do expect that. I suspect that they expect people to like the game as it is (when it goes Gold, that is). I mean, there are some aspects that I don't like right now, but I don't care to change the xml files. I figure I will wait until the game is complete and see where things are.

...what a missed opportunity, the steam workshop exsists and ignoreing the benifit it would bring is short sighted at best.
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Who says they are ignoring it?

 
How much the Pimps decide to put into a in-game config menu is up to them of course, but it will always only be a subset of what can be changed in the XML's. I do agree, major options should be in there (though, there will be always differing opinions on what counts as "major"), but for people wanting to really tweak their game settings, the XML's is always going to be the place to go (and indeed, some DLL editing if you want to get really down into the nitty gritty of it all).
Hopefully, some time before Gold, they'll rework and expand the in-game settings menu though.
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I see most of the popular concerns come down to people wanting to play the game as a building sandbox/rpg, so a sandbox mode might be prudent. A mode/set of default options controls the experience in a better way for someone who is not willing to delve into 100 misc options. Besides, you will have realized by now that some people can only bother opening the executable. I'm willing to bet an arm and a leg that this applies to most people in general.

 
I see most of the popular concerns come down to people wanting to play the game as a building sandbox/rpg, so a sandbox mode might be prudent. A mode/set of default options controls the experience in a better way for someone who is not willing to delve into 100 misc options. Besides, you will have realized by now that some people can only bother opening the executable. I'm willing to bet an arm and a leg that this applies to most people in general.
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Games are meant to be fun though, to some people editing text files is 'work'. Its unfair to expect people to edit (sometimes massive) ammounts of XML just so they can play with an option that used to exsist.

 
Games are meant to be fun though, to some people editing text files is 'work'. Its unfair to expect people to edit (sometimes massive) ammounts of XML just so they can play with an option that used to exsist.
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Unfair or not, it's a fact. Most people won't bother. We can't judge by what we would/can do ourselves. Modding and XML flexibility is a huge plus and have kept the game alive in a great degree, it's just not something that most people (especially in SP) will use.

 
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