PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Laran Mithras]

Just loot a Savage Country, take all the dye out of the clothes and scrap each dye into 15 paint. Unless you just need tons of paint.

Usually what I do. Savage Country gives ~650 paint. I use 5K+.

Murky water changes are going to push paint into fantasy realm if no changes to recipe. But... I'll adapt. Just takes the paint-fun out of the game.

 

[Roland]

Usually what I do. Savage Country gives ~650 paint. I use 5K+.

Murky water changes are going to push paint into fantasy realm if no changes to recipe. But... I'll adapt. Just takes the paint-fun out of the game.

Murky water is an uncommon find compared to A20 but I wouldn't call it rare. Early game you will be drinking everything you find but once you get dew collectors going your supply of murky water will start stacking up and you'll be able to use it for paint. I would say it delays painting out of the early game rather than taking it out of the whole game.

 

[mstdv inc]

Murky water is an uncommon find compared to A20 but I wouldn't call it rare. Early game you will be drinking everything you find but once you get dew collectors going your supply of murky water will start stacking up and you'll be able to use it for paint. I would say it delays painting out of the early game rather than taking it out of the whole game.

I think if you add whiskey to the game, the character will not be so upset by the lack of clean water at the beginning of survival 

 

[maxousara]

Who is angry? Seriously who? No anger in my post at all, don't know where you got that idea. 

And I gave a reply nothing else.

Tell me my simple question is stupid and useless is not an happy comment. I close the subject. Its 2 weeks about that turn the page

 

[Roland]

Tell me my simple question is stupid and useless is not an happy comment. I close the subject. Its 2 weeks about that turn the page

Hey man, switch out your mean translator for a kind translator. Nobody ever said your comment was stupid and useless.

 

[Jost Amman]

I would absolutely Love to see something water related @faatal can you show it to us

Here it is:  :bathbaby:   :rain:   :fish2:   :washing:

 

[Jost Amman]

@madmole I found someone you should hire immediately (this comment is from the A20.6 release announcement on Steam)  ound:

I think the problem people has is that TFP themselves are extremely disorganized, which is why it has taken them so long to finish the game.

Throughout the years we have seen features implemented, then taken out later on.  The one thats most prominent was the option to find better quality gun parts (up to 600) and install them onto the respective gun.  You could literally play hundreds of hours and still find parts to upgrade your favorite gun....removed in place of a 1-6 quality system with no more gun parts...why?  That was hours and hours of development time wasted and hours and hours of fun and progression sucked out of the game....looting is virtually unrewarding now because you never have that "I think this is a better part than I already have!", especially since I have found quality 6 weapons pretty often on the very first day.

There were some features they tried that I'm glad WAS removed, such as trees killing you when they fell (I died plenty of times because a tree started falling my way and barely touched my hitbox, obviously wasn't play-tested by the devs before release), but still, they had a massive influx of negativity towards that feature and it still took them MONTHS to remove it, even though its as simple as disabling collisions between trees and players and push a small update.

And yeah, you would have a valid argument if you said that they need to test things to see if the public likes it, but that argument is moot since they never even had a road-map to go on, seems they were just winging it every step of the way, and that causes production delays and wasted time and money.  Having a plan is literally the very first step of making a game...even if that plan changes here and there, you have a set goal.  These people don't have a goal, they use "early access" as their excuse for poor organization, bugs, messy coding and poor optimization, because they know that as long as its in early access they're always going to have those people that defends them no matter how much they suck.

Also, I'm not sure where you found that TFP has over 50 employees, I checked around 10-15 business sites and they all list them currently as having "< 25 employees". 

Also, last thing...

I'm a Unity programmer, and I could make a game, exactly like 7DtD with all of its "complicated systems"(which isn't complicated at all), within a few months.  By myself.

It's not hard to make a game if you know what you're doing.  This is what the road map would have been good for, we could have been roughly at the point where we are now in 2014 if they had a road map and followed it.

I won't reply to this guy, since that's not the place to start such long-winded discussions... but he made me think: how can anyone make such foolish statements?  :frusty:

 

[RipClaw]

I won't reply to this guy, since that's not the place to start such long-winded discussions... but he made me think: how can anyone make such foolish statements?  :frusty:

This is known as the Dunning Kruger effect. Someone knows a little bit about Unity programming and game development, for example, and thinks he knows everything there is to know.

 

[Uncle Al]

This is known as the Dunning Kruger effect. Someone knows a little bit about Unity programming and game development, for example, and thinks he knows everything there is to know.

Specifically the spike on the DK Competence vs. Confidence graph known as 'Mount Stupid'

 

[JCrook1028]

Lmao. I guess if that "Miracle Programmer" had simply fired up the game and read the credits they list 54 employees there...

"

Also, I'm not sure where you found that TFP has over 50 employees, I checked around 10-15 business sites and they all list them currently as having "< 25 employees". 

Also, last thing..."

 

[Roland]

I won't demand a game from him within a few months but how about a mod? If he has all these better ideas for how the game should be and knows unity, then building off the 7 Days to Die platform to create a mod should be a piece of cake. I'd be happy to play his mod. Maybe he's working on his own road map before he starts....

 

[Kalex]

Will more lore be revealed in the later updates? I've figured a bit but I'm not sure about it and would love to learn more especially about the duke or Noah.

I'll put my theory here:

Spoiler

My theory was that the zombie apocalypse happened since a nuclear explosion happened. How I know this? Because I saw it on a newspaper in the game. At the edge of the map there is a nuclear fallout zone which is full of radiation which kills you. Also there is a wasteland which I assume the radiation died out since it is a wasteland but safe. It is home to massive hordes of zombies and has the largest amount of zombies in a biome in the game. There are also radiated zombies, police zombies, mutated zombies, demolishers and more. Since a lot of zombies are found there that means that the cause of the zombies is unusual radiation which turned humans into zombies. But now the radiation has died out and it is safe to go there. The nuclear fallout zone which has a lot of radiation that can kill you quick (reminder: Is at the edge of the map) is the parts where the radiation has spread and is impossible to go there. Also I did some research and apparently the game is set after a 3rd world war The area which you are in which I think is Arizona is one of the only places that is not affected by the radiation and is safe. In the note the mayor of white river settlement says that you barely made it here and when you came here you were almost dead so you possibly escaped from the radiation zone into a safe area but you almost died on the way and the mayor guy saved you.

 The Duke or Noah is apparently a unplanned boss fight. Apparently he controls an army of mutated soldiers. Noah also says that you have to pay him and that the gear he took from you was not enough. If he can control zombies maybe he is the one sending zombies to you on horde night since you aren't paying him? In Trader Jen's dialogue mentions that she/he has to pay protection payment to the duke. Is this because he controls the zombies and commands them not to attack the traders if the trader pays him. Also he is the mayor of white river settlement. The currency which is duke casino token has his face on it and has the word duke. Could he have something to do with the zombie outbreak?

My theory

Well, close in some spots. Noah is the head of the White River settlements and Duke is the local bandit warlord who used to own/run a casino. This has already been established. There was some sort of outbreak and nukes were used but whether they were used in war with other humans or were used to try to stop the zed spread, I don't think has been established officially.

We won't be getting the story until close to or at gold release (by design from what I understand).

 

[JaxTeller718]

 

[Roland]

So now you can not do mining only because oyu only get better by looting?

Technically you get better at mining by spending points on your mining perks which you can earn by mining plus doing other stuff.

You get better at crafting mining tools by reading magazines and trade journals so that your knowledge of how to put together things increases.

You don't have to do a single bit of looting in order to actually mine. In order to learn how to craft better and better tools you have to either have a craftsman teach you (sorry they are all zombified now) or you can read up and learn.

Now you can trivialize that by saying its all by looting but I'm not sure how you imagine obtaining magazines with the knowledge you need to learn if you don't go looking for them or have someone bring them to you.

I didnt see that those skills were crafting only. that was my b. I thought it was now ALL skills.
But doesnt totally invalidate my point, only lessens it.
But since you don't unlock ANY recipes without looting... means stoneaxe FTW

Okay, I see you realized how it works. But you are missing the point of what the learning is. You are not learning by looting. You are learning by reading. You like LBD because you learn (thematically) by trial and error. You start out doing a shoddy job but as you keep doing that somehow bit by bit you get better and better. The funny thing is that nobody learns like that for specialized work. You go and search for a video or you find an instructional manual and you read up on it to learn the specialized skills you might never stumble upon if you just kept bumbling along doing amateurish work over and over and over again.

So when I want to fix something on my car and I search for a video on YouTube and watch that and then replicated it myself having learned what to do. Is that "Learn by Searching" No. I did have to search to find the video but watching and listening and internalizing the instructional information of the video is how I learned. You can do the same by reading manuals, trade journals, etc.

So people who want to be dismissive of this change can just call it "learn by looting" but what it actually is, is learning by reading the instructional information of experts in the various fields to gain their knowledge for yourself. The problem is that the apocalypse happened and they are all dead and there is no YouTube to watch. All you can do is gather what you can find from magazines and teach yourself how to become more and more a master craftsman. 

So then, given that we are going to learn by reading and not by doing, where would you like those magazines with all the knowledge in them to be placed? Scattered all over the world to be scavenged or all just sitting in front of you when you spawn? What seems to make the most sense in a post apocalyptic world? 

 

[Roland]

I'm not that kind of player. I like exploration and looting and doing quests.
But there are other people that don't. And they aren't single digits.

How about we all just post about our own feelings and experiences and not on behalf of others. They can post on their own behalf. I think just speaking for yourself is always the best policy. What I'm hearing from you is that you personally see that scavenging and exploring is a big part of a zombie survival genre game. I agree with you.

7D2D is far from a 100% sandbox by now and it was (according to kickstarter) never planned to be.

It still is a 100% sandbox if you enable the creative menu and optionally godmode. Do that and all of the complaints of people who don't want the constraints of rules and game limits will go away.

 

[Roland]

This game should really be 'Do as you please,' at least until a proper questline and endgame comes about. The idea that you are free to do as you please but..

*cough* can't avoid bloodmoons for one night by hiding (intrinsically balanced by the player giving up fun, exp, and potential loot)..

*cough* can't advance fully without looting (if things go the way they look.)

The forced direction (along with this; book collection, which I see as a means of a cheap way of extendng play time - and no, I'm not interested in rehashing...) has; in my eyes, ruined the old charm of the game. 

Thanks for this feedback. You are describing the difference between a sandbox and a game. Sandboxes are completely do as you please with no limits. Games introduce rules, limits, and challenges. This game started out much more like a sandbox because a lot of the rules and limits were not yet introduced. But you should understand that it was always planned to be a game first and foremost. You can still make it a sandbox by enabling the creative menu and godmode. These two settings will allow you to do whatever you want to do without limit or constraint. For example, with the creative menu enabled you never would have to loot at all or use a trader and still be able to advance.

On topic, single player vs multiplayer - what's the deal with the books? When you have multiplayer people can specialise, but for those of us who (sometimes) choose to play alone (or have no choice) - then what's the gig? Having to collect an absurd number of books will become (I imagine) unbearably tedious when you don't have the multiplayer split work and specific roles (miner, farmer, builder, defender, doctor etc.) 

Any word on this?

Good question. I've been playing A21 completely solo and I read every book I find. I am progressing along all the different ladders at a different rate without much control over what I can progress in other than perking into those skills that will give a slight boost to the types of magazines and parts I'll be able to find. It has significantly increased the "make do with what you have" aspect of the game. I've completely maxed out my skills at times--say for example machine guns-- and I still can only craft a green pipe machine gun and there is nothing I can do to break into AK-47s except wait until I've read enough magazines. That doesn't bother me overly as being a very very skilled machine gunner using a pipe machine gun is still pretty effective.

So the answer to your question is that as a single player you are going to have to find or buy or earn all the magazines yourself and whether or not that ends up being tedious or not will probably vary by individual. My own opinion is that looting is more fun in A21 than ever before because there are now so many more containers that are worth looting and feel rewarding for you having taken the time to open them.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

All of that missed the point.
Sorry @Roland.
Yes you are completely right. It just doesnt matter.
Because gameplay and realism are both important. And if the realism does not give you ANY more fun, gameplay trumps it every time.
So I want somewhat realistic falldamage, not because it is essential, but because it helps immersion and b it creates gameplayvariances.

But in this case, all this realism doesnt add anything. It is not important, if on the other hand, you lose an entire playerbase, because they lose their playstyle.

You can call it learn by reading all you want.
Can you read without looting? (yes you can sometimes buy them at the trader... but I doubt there will be very many, because that is the point of the change... IF there will be like an entire books section that you can buy, I will redact ALL I have said here.
If not, it is learning by looting(by proxy). You have to loot to be able to read.
Which means, no matter how "realistic" it is, it completely invalidates the mole playstyle.

 

Even if you can still buy all the tools and stuff... it is still another restriction on moles. For no realos other than "realism".

You ALWAYS say that realism should not be taken too seriously in an apocalypse (I agree to some point, but only as long as the gameplay doesnt suffer from it!), so you should know better than to try and defend a feature with realism...

This feature does not benefit the gameplayloop. It forces exploration even more, which is already the core. Which is, I guess fine... but not for moles, which is my only argument.

How about we all just post about our own feelings and experiences and not on behalf of others. They can post on their own behalf.

I know people that like moling. And I think it is a bad idea, since (as mentioned) it doesnt offer anything but more lootfocus.
I agree when it comes to experiences, but this is something that I do not need to experience to understand.

 

[Roland]

But in this case, all this realism doesnt add anything. It is not important, if on the other hand, you lose an entire playerbase, because they lose their playstyle.

Every alpha you warn that we are about to lose the entire playerbase and every alpha our playerbase increases. Just speak for yourself, man.

As for realism vs gameplay, I was not defending the learning by reading by realism. I was simply showing that it has a basis in reality the same as learn by doing. Exploring and scavenging IS fun gameplay for many people. I think that you are correct that playing as a mole is becoming one of the more challenging gameplay options. Will that turn off all mole people or only those that wanted to be moles and have it easy? Perhaps they will be able to develop a Casual Mole Mod within their community to make the game more enjoyable for them. Who can say since we can't really speak for them. Will they all quit the game because being a mole is tougher now? Maybe.

But I doubt it. And based on history, I doubt the prediction that entire playerbases will be lost as well.

IF there will be like an entire books section that you can buy, I will redact ALL I have said here.

Would you even want something like this? If so, then this is the point where you just enable the creative menu and take those books you want and not worry about it so much. 

You ALWAYS say that realism should not be taken too seriously in an apocalypse (I agree to some point, but only as long as the gameplay doesnt suffer from it!)

I agree that gameplay trumps realism. But what can I say? Looting and exploring is fun for me. I'm not speaking for some hypothetical swath of people who may or may not like looting or exploring and yet bought this game. Some people have listened to the description and already decided it is more or less fun. When they actually play it that will confirm it for them or change their mind. I think the game continues to be fun which is why I still play it. The changes for A21 introduce new situations and choices and I like it.

 

[Roland]

I think the biggest complaint we will see is the loss of control over being able to quickly level up in the ladder we want to quickly level up in. People are used to being able to farm points quickly and race to the top the perks and be able to craft the best they can within days of starting. @KhaineGB said he faced this and the solution he had was to allow people to spend points in lieu of books in order to return that control to the player. 

It will be interesting to see if TFP follows in this same design path eventually. Khaine was warning TFP to just do it now and save themselves the headache later. We'll see.

 

[KhaineGB]

I think the biggest complaint we will see is the loss of control over being able to quickly level up in the ladder we want to quickly level up in. People are used to being able to farm points quickly and race to the top the perks and be able to craft the best they can within days of starting. @KhaineGB said he faced this and the solution he had was to allow people to spend points in lieu of books in order to return that control to the player. 

It will be interesting to see if TFP follows in this same design path eventually. Khaine was warning TFP to just do it now and save themselves the headache later. We'll see.

Honestly, it's more that I can see people getting frustrated if they can't find the books, especially on MP.

I see it a lot with DF. Even then, players can be very resistant to spending points. I just think it's a good OPTION to have.