PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[KhaineGB]

I mean, being honest, I just want TFP to make sure the buy functionality is in the XUi Controller.

They don't even had to enable it. But having it there so people could mod it in, if they so wish, would be a good solution (and then the code is ready if they DO need it)

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Every alpha you warn that we are about to lose the entire playerbase and every alpha our playerbase increases. Just speak for yourself, man.

I never said you'lll lose your entire playerbase.
I always critique the gamedesign. Playernumbers have nothing to do with that. McDonalds being the most popular restaurant says nothing about the quality, but about their marketing and price.
Lets be real, a DECREASE of playernumbers would spell doom... I mean the only time that happened was A17... and I don't need to tell you the feedback for that alpha...

(worse than ATLAS on release!) but with enough media attention and nice christmas and summer sales...
It isn't a BAD game per se... but it could be so much better... but I'll stop. I have wasted enough time on this. I just found that statement to be particularly egregious.

But I doubt it. And based on history, I doubt the prediction that entire playerbases will be lost as well.

The moles will certainly lose interest fast. But luckily, >95% of new players aren't moles. So you can rest assured, the game will not flop.
But that was also never my argument.

Would you even want something like this? If so, then this is the point where you just enable the creative menu and take those books you want and not worry about it so much. 

I don't like cheating. I don't like exploits either. I just want different approachmethods, instead of "go exploring or go f§$% yourself!"

I'm not speaking for some hypothetical swath of people who may or may not like looting or exploring and yet bought this game.

Neither am I. Not hypothetical. I've talked to loads of them, even if I don't remember their names. But that also was never the point. I don't need to be american to critizise the american president either.

Some people have listened to the description and [...]

I agree. Moles are old time players for sure. No new player would go "oh yea! This is totally a game for me! Suffering to no end, just to be able to mine my tunnels. That sounds like fun!"

 

[Javabean867]

Neither am I. Not hypothetical. I've talked to loads of them, even if I don't remember their names. But that also was never the point. I don't need to be american to critizise the american president either.

Not saying i agree or disagree with you, but talking to "loads of people" is still anecdotal.  Any conclusion you come to using anecdotal evidence cannot be shown to be accurate, due to the type of evidence you are using.  

You don't like X about the game.  You have searched out/found accidentally like minded people, so you think that is what a lot of people think/feel. 

Like others have said, argue from your perspective.
 

 

[Blake_]

I won't demand a game from him within a few months but how about a mod? If he has all these better ideas for how the game should be and knows unity, then building off the 7 Days to Die platform to create a mod should be a piece of cake. I'd be happy to play his mod. Maybe he's working on his own road map before he starts....

A lot of fallacy in his comment, yes. One thing that people might agree and be absolutely wrong about is TFP is actually one of the most organized teams I've ever encountered in the industry, specifically in their creative process. Allowing freedom to modulate game systems if they don't work in some way or another while having the whole dev team AND the community participate is something I've only seen in a couple of studios today.

On a side note, I personally dislike the terms "alpha", "beta" and "Gold candidate" as it's pretty obvious that each company brushes past the meaning of those terms at their own convenience, and this one, (TFP) should do that too IMO (in the sense that if something doesn't work then back to madmole's table). DLCs with new systems are allowed too, I've seen plenty of those in released games, like a full code redesign to allow deeper and richer underground coordinates (Minecraft), a character creator system, new factions with a brand new modular dialogue system, etc.

People whine and that's ok, and whine they will when a21 gets free. And at release, they will whine still. 

But even with all that whining, the game they will keep playing and the Dishong Tower climbing.

 

[Roland]

But in this case, all this realism doesnt add anything. It is not important, if on the other hand, you lose an entire playerbase

Every alpha you warn that we are about to lose the entire playerbase

I never said you'lll lose your entire playerbase.

Okay, fine. I change "the entire" to "an entire". Still doesn't scan with historical evidence.

Lets be real, a DECREASE of playernumbers would spell doom... I mean the only time that happened was A17

A17's spike was not as high as A16's spike, true, but the player base of A17's lifecycle was on average very comparable to A16. I admit A17 didn't gain us much popularity because LBD had just been removed and the enemy AI was still a WIP and very different than it had been before which rendered most classic base defense metas obsolete. Also POIs were completely PACKED with sleepers (which interestingly hampered the looting game). But if LBD removal was truly the largest complaint about A17, then A18 should not have been such the large increase that it was because by then people knew that TFP had decided to not go with the feedback to bring LBD back. Instead A18 was mainly a more polished A17 with the AI further along and the progression system of central pool xp and skillpoints firmly established. One would think that the loss of LBD would be the event to lose us an entire playerbase. But things have just grown hugely since we've refined and polished and doubled down on the A17 version in A19 and A20.

Besides LBD, the importance of looting over crafting has grown since A17. Each alpha the dominance of looting as a means to progress has increased more and more. This is the whole reason we are discussing this now because A21 looks to emphasize looting even more-- and yet, despite your prediction that this trend will turn people away, we can clearly see that the game has only become more popular. It is my opinion that the devs have actually recognized in the playerbase that most people who play this game actually like looting and exploring POIs.  And what have they been focusing on over the last three alphas? Emphasizing and enhancing looting as a major part of the game and providing hundreds of new POIs to explore-- and the result is that people are flocking to play this game. Here we are 8 months after the update in the doldrums of A20 and the numbers are still higher than A16's best day spike.

Does that disenfranchise those who never really cared for looting but were able to play their mole game while the game was still underdeveloped for them to do so? I agree that it probably will. But TFP is actually doing what most of the fans want. Of course, those whose playstyle isn't the popular way would call that "selling out". Game studios can't win. Either they are prigs who don't listen to their player base or they are greedy @%$#s who McDonalds-ize themselves to the majority to just make money and forget their original dream. 

I don't like cheating. I don't like exploits either. I just want different approachmethods, instead of "go exploring or go f§$% yourself!"

I thought you said you didn't have a problem with exploring or are you again channeling the desires of that other group whose torch you're carrying and you want different approaches for them? The truth, is that you can ignore exploring and you can survive. You will be stuck with your primitive gear but you'll be able to become very very very good at using it as effectively as it can possibly be used. If you want more than the basics you are going to have to go and find some of it and leave your molehole. I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation in a game where exploration and looting are major parts of the game and for which TFP has spent lots of time and money tripling and quadrupling the explorable content that we've had before and with no signs of slowing down for A21. There are even more POIs already added to A21 plus more coming and the purpose of those POIs is to explore them and loot them.

I think it is also reasonable to expect people to mod the game to de-emphasize exploration and looting if they wish. This isn't "fixing" the broken game but simply shifting the design to something they like better and it is great that it can be done. It's easy to believe that the way you want the game to play is the 5-star restaurant of design while the way you don't like automatically means that it is the McDonalds of design. I think it is just a different 5-star restaurant those other people don't care for but calling it McDonalds makes them feel better.

Neither am I. Not hypothetical. I've talked to loads of them, even if I don't remember their names. But that also was never the point. I don't need to be american to critizise the american president either.

No, but it is more likely to make listeners roll their eyes rather than take you seriously. I think it is always best for people to just voice their own opinions and not to try to champion the cause of some other group they aren't a part of. It is definitely more compelling. I've always been interested in your opinion on what you don't like. I don't necessarily agree with your portrayal of some things you don't like as being poor game design. But I generally like those ideas you whip up in 20 minutes.

 

[Roland]

Dishong Tower climbing

ugh...who still does that? Nirvana is landing on the roof and then descending....  

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

I think the biggest complaint we will see is the loss of control over being able to quickly level up in the ladder we want to quickly level up in. 

I don't think that's what people want. People want a story, progression, and end game stuff to do - not to race through levels and bore themselves to tears by doing so when they reach a singular or group Alpha state.

Learn by doing. I will again take this opportunity to publicly mourn the loss of that amazing system.

That is exactly the opposite of levelling up fast, gave a genuine feeling of reward for the time put into doing something long enough to earn their skill boost. Punching a few dogs to death then suddenly knowing how to craft a motorbike for example was and is an absurd non-sequitur and removed the challenge and in turn removed a genuine extension of playtime.

This is one of the things I miss and, on your point of the playerbase; and only I can speak for me, but as I said before I get bored faster with each alpha from about 17 onwards.

Not because of burnout because I thoroughly enjoy other aspects of 7D, the building system for example is outstanding. But because the new stuff and fluff just isn't enough to compensate for the good things lost. The more 7d apologists dismiss opinions like mine as sentimentality that we need to get over, and not discuss it seriously with the possibility of non modded reversal or options, then who knows?

Once the games sold and Steams refund has passed, and the money is in the devs pockets, what do they care. They aren't just making a game for themselves, but a player base - one composed of lots of opinions about what's been and whats gone, and I think we drive the change either proactively or passively by open discussion and/or passive acceptance of whatever the devs change, and/or Dev Apologists who defend anything the developers do.

The difference between good developers and other kinds is the involvement of the playerbase over devs know best, which clearly isn't always the case.

Kust some thoughts of mine.

 

[Roland]

I don't think that's what people want. People want a story, progression, and end game stuff to do - not to race through levels and bore themselves to tears by doing so when they reach a singular or group Alpha state.

Learn by doing. I will again take this opportunity to publicly mourn the loss of that amazing system.

That is exactly the opposite of levelling up fast, gave a genuine feeling of reward for the time put into doing something long enough to earn their skill boost. Punching a few dogs to death then suddenly knowing how to craft a motorbike for example was and is an absurd non-sequitur and removed the challenge and in turn removed a genuine extension of playtime.

I don't believe you are being fair. You are glamorizing the system you like and intentionally putting the one you don't into absurd terms. You have asked for an honest analysis a number of times and so I shall give you one.

Both systems can be rushed and both systems can be played organically. Players would speed run the progression just as much under LBD as they do now with central pool xp and skill points. People could play LBD naturally and organically if they so chose and people can do so with central pool xp if they so choose. LBD emphasized doing a single action type in order to increase the skill for that action type. Skillpoints emphasizes the growth of the character through various and all actions. Both are valid and amazing systems that work well. I enjoyed both and I recognize the strengths and weaknesses of both. In all cases, you get out of a game what you put into it and abusing any given system will make it appear absurd while using it to organically progress gives a feeling of reward and accomplishment. I have found both systems can deliver this result.

I know that many people have cast an unfair light upon LBD making it appear absurd over the last few years which may cause a desire to respond in kind about the current system but since you have asked for an honest discussion, let's leave behind the rhetoric and be honest. Both designs work and are good designs and multiple games have used both with success and regardless of whether a person likes or dislikes one or the other, that doesn't mean one design is actually trash and the other is treasure.

This is one of the things I miss and, on your point of the playerbase; and only I can speak for me, but as I said before I get bored faster with each alpha from about 17 onwards.

Thanks for your feedback.

Not because of burnout because I thoroughly enjoy other aspects of 7D, the building system for example is outstanding. But because the new stuff and fluff just isn't enough to compensate for the good things lost. The more 7d apologists dismiss opinions like mine as sentimentality that we need to get over, and not discuss it seriously with the possibility of non modded reversal or options, then who knows?

Speaking as an official representative of TFP, I can tell you unequivocably that no amount of serious discussion is going to reverse this game back to the direction of LBD. That isn't to say that the devs did not take the counter arguments seriously and did not weigh their choices carefully before changing the method of progression. In fact, it was a process that spanned from A11-A17 in which we saw the game start from a purely LBD model and slowly change towards a skillpoint model. LBD disappeared bit by bit until it was finally gone in A17. That was a period of about 3 years in which the team discussed, developed, and ultimately came to their final decision. Now we have seen their final system get refined and modified since A17 and now the game is almost a wrap. Please know that regardless of the snarky back and forth over LBD by community members, TFP has always taken their game seriously and been very careful in their decisions. I say this plainly and simply and with no intention of sneering about it. I'm simply being honest that there is 0 chance of getting LBD for player progression outside of modding.

Once the games sold and Steams refund has passed, and the money is in the devs pockets, what do they care. They aren't just making a game for themselves, but a player base - one composed of lots of opinions about what's been and whats gone, and I think we drive the change either proactively or passively by open discussion and/or passive acceptance of whatever the devs change, and/or Dev Apologists who defend anything the developers do.

The difference between good developers and other kinds is the involvement of the playerbase over devs know best, which clearly isn't always the case.

As a general statement of what could occur in this industry I agree. I personally don't think your description fits TFP. They have always cared about this game being the best that it can be according to their goals and just because the game has been financially successful and they can't lose that money to refunds doesn't mean they don't care. They absolutely care about how people react to what they have done. All of us are excited for experimental so that you all can try the new features and we hope that you will like them and it is hugely disappointing when people don't like them.

Some people feel like the money they paid gives them the right to be part of the directing team and that the player base that supported the game by paying for it should be able to override what the devs want to do and that the devs shouldn't change anything without first asking the player base who paid for the game if they want those changes. 

Others feel like the money they paid gives them the right to play the game and witness the changes that occur during development and it's nice to be able to give feedback but ultimately the final decision rests with the developers and the final product will be whatever they create.

Still others just buy the game and play it for what it is at that moment in time until they get bored and then move on without ever following a single bit of it's development. They may come back to it and play again later but probably didn't pay attention enough to really register the changes. They know something is different but are not sure what it is.

I am in that second group and disagree with the assertions of the first group and have been in the third group for other early access games in my library.

 

[Lasher]

Well how many copies of the game were sold?

How many people come to the forums?

How many people actually post on the forums?

How many people complain about farming on the forums?

So obviously, farming complainers ARE a minority.

Which just means that the folk who actually complain about it could still be a small minority of the people who hate it.

So no, you can't prove it.

TBH outhous I'm done arguing with you about it - you don't seem to have a point so how about not blathering on about it?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Okay, fine. I change "the entire" to "an entire". Still doesn't scan with historical evidence.

I've never really said that before. I said "alienate", and what I meant was "they are even more unhappy".
And if 5% of players never come back, but 50% of players come because of advertising... you wouldn't know, even if I had meant that.

Does that disenfranchise those who never really cared for looting but were able to play their mole game while the game was still underdeveloped for them to do so? I agree that it probably will. But TFP is actually doing what most of the fans want. Of course, those whose playstyle isn't the popular way would call that "selling out". Game studios can't win. Either they are prigs who don't listen to their player base or they are greedy @%$#s who McDonalds-ize themselves to the majority to just make money and forget their original dream. 

Indie games... I guess you are right. When you have the chance to become a casual game, I guess you better take it.
I just like nieche games more that do not succomb to the lowest common denominator.

I thought you said you didn't have a problem with exploring or are you again channeling the desires of that other group whose torch you're carrying and you want different approaches for them?

I dislike the idea, even if I am not personally affected. I can critique something that is not directly influencing me, you know?
Even if I knew none of those moles, I could still voice these opinions, if I thought they are overall degrading the game to some extent.

I think it is also reasonable to expect people to mod the game to de-emphasize exploration and looting if they wish. This isn't "fixing" the broken game but simply shifting the design to something they like better and it is great that it can be done. It's easy to believe that the way you want the game to play is the 5-star restaurant of design while the way you don't like automatically means that it is the McDonalds of design. I think it is just a different 5-star restaurant those other people don't care for but calling it McDonalds makes them feel better.

I mean... you DO know that is a cop-out argument that any game could use, right?
Bethesda doesn't have bugs, it has features. And if you don't like it, just install the unofficial patch. Not their responsibility to provide a game you like...

It is not even officially supported...

No, but it is more likely to make listeners roll their eyes rather than take you seriously. I think it is always best for people to just voice their own opinions and not to try to champion the cause of some other group they aren't a part of.

I am not championing for their cause.
They are not my shield, they are but one arrow in a barrage of reasons, why I do not think this is a good choice.

 

[meganoth]

Making a mod so that a mole could craft magazines out of diamonds is one of the most trivial mods anyone could make. If moles are say 5% of the player base how probable is it that none of them can mod something basic as this and put it into the mod section for others to use?

Also nobody said anything about whether those moles are playing co-op MP or are single players. In co-op they get their magazines from their co-op players (at least if we can trust Rolands experience of the magazine bonus being very small). Only if someone wants to play single-player mole he would need to consider installing a mod or using creative mode.

So, if the moles are really interested in playing on, they can and probably will adapt.

"Oh, but saying they have to mod the game is a cop-out". Since Bethesda was brought up as an example, I never heard of a single player who doesn't mod that game by now. Why shouldn't someone with an "extreme" play-style have to mod the game a bit?

 

[jdifran]

Honestly, it's more that I can see people getting frustrated if they can't find the books, especially on MP.

I see it a lot with DF. Even then, players can be very resistant to spending points. I just think it's a good OPTION to have.

If they get the weighted looting odds right and folks reliably get enough of the books for the trees they've perked into, that should go a long way.  They could even add a slider in settings to increase or decrease the weight.  Ensuring that the traders always have a good supply of books would also help avoid frustration when you're screwed by the RNG.

 

[KhaineGB]

If they get the weighted looting odds right and folks reliably get enough of the books for the trees they've perked into, that should go a long way.  They could even add a slider in settings to increase or decrease the weight.  Ensuring that the traders always have a good supply of books would also help avoid frustration when you're screwed by the RNG.

I mean this with no disrespect... how much MP have you played?

Because on running servers, cities near spawn are often picked clean like a plaque of locusts has been through, which will severely impact the players ability to get books, regardless of perks.

That's the problem I'm refering to.

 

[jdifran]

I mean this with no disrespect... how much MP have you played?

Because on running servers, cities near spawn are often picked clean like a plaque of locusts has been through, which will severely impact the players ability to get books, regardless of perks.

That's the problem I'm refering to.

Sorry, Khaine, that's my bad.  I was jumping in and didn't realize you were talking specifically about MP.  

 

[KhaineGB]

Yep, that's why I suggested the point ALTERNATIVE as it would be good for situations like that.

 

[Roland]

I've never really said that before. I said "alienate", and what I meant was "they are even more unhappy".
And if 5% of players never come back, but 50% of players come because of advertising... you wouldn't know, even if I had meant that.

You did say it and I did quote you directly. If what you said is not what you meant then fine. I'm willing to accept what you saying you mean and agree that people can be alienated by a change and become unhappy.

What advertising? Why do you have to phrase it that 5% leave because the gameplay is not what they like but the 50% who come in are somehow duped by advertising. We don't do any advertising other than showing gameplay footage and 99% of that is by independent streamers who may or may not be saying good things about us while they play. If 50% more people come in, it is more likely that they like what they are seeing and want to play.

Indie games... I guess you are right. When you have the chance to become a casual game, I guess you better take it.
I just like nieche games more that do not succomb to the lowest common denominator.

No,  you like niche games that conform to your own desires and if they don't you accuse the developers of either failing to listen or going casual. I've heard you many times accuse them of failing to listen and now you are accusing them of going casual. Not liking a game because it doesn't match your preferences is normal and there's nothing wrong with that. I can respect the idea that you don't like the game as much as you used to. But failing to recognize that that is all that it is and then accusing the devs of selling out or being uncaring is missing the mark.

I dislike the idea, even if I am not personally affected.

Okay. Thanks for sharing your own feedback. Hopefully when you get a chance to play it you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I mean... you DO know that is a cop-out argument that any game could use, right?
Bethesda doesn't have bugs, it has features. And if you don't like it, just install the unofficial patch. Not their responsibility to provide a game you like...

It is not even officially supported...

Well if you are going to equate bugs to design changes then we can't even form a common basis for discussion. In my opinion, the changes to the game design are not bugs. They are intentional design changes and as I mentioned elsewhere I think they are just as valid and work just as well as other design choice. That we may or may not like them as much will vary from person to person but it doesn't make them bugs that modding must fix. It simply makes them gameplay designs that modders will change.

 

[Annihilatorza]

I won't demand a game from him within a few months but how about a mod? If he has all these better ideas for how the game should be and knows unity, then building off the 7 Days to Die platform to create a mod should be a piece of cake. I'd be happy to play his mod. Maybe he's working on his own road map before he starts....

Nah Roland, Let him put his money where his mouth is. 

Build a complete voxel based game with the following by Xmas

Base Building

Hoard Night 

Every block breakable

Farming

Electricity

HD Zombies

Weapons

Vehicles

Wind System

Feral System

Day Night Cycle

Looting

Crafting

Armour System

10km2 maps 

Ect....

@faatal

Does [SIZE=14.6px]occlusion[/SIZE] work on game objects such are cars, beds lamps ect or is just Buildings and the like?

 

[bdubyah]

Hmm just read up on the changes coming in a21 and pretty iffy on some of them, especially the learn by looting ones :classic_sad:

Dunno, guess we'll see when it is fully here, but the game has been heavily heavily heavily killing the "den mother" role from online groups for several updates now and this change just completely does it in entirely. Every online group I've seen usually ends up with 1 player who mostly just enjoys building and gathering and stays at home and handles the crafting etc, while the others go off doing questing.

I'm confused on why it's even seen as such an egregious problem to TFP to the point of the last several alpha crapping on it, but rip to that entire entire side of the game I guess. Learn by Looting just means any time spent in your base is basically wasted time now and it makes the game even more of a "just chain run quests nonstop" game

Easy, just tell your friends what kind of books you need and have them bring the extras/ones they don't need back for you. They sound like they will be fairly common so getting extra copies shouldn't be that hard for a group.

 

[Khalagar]

Easy, just tell your friends what kind of books you need and have them bring the extras/ones they don't need back for you. They sound like they will be fairly common so getting extra copies shouldn't be that hard for a group.

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc. Dunno just seems like a change that makes life a lot more complicated to resolve an issue that didn't exist. I'm honestly not understanding what the point of the change even was / what it's targeted at fixing

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

I really love return to sandom recipies. Fist step (back) to right direction in years. 

But "Interactive Environmental Hazards" 
that filed concept in context of this game. Year is is that lazy and hacky "puzzle" in solo computer game but did you forgot this is VOXEL game. 
1st thing I would do is destroy the broken pipe block, not expecting it to put out the fire but just to my suspicion that have no effect on the now completely illogical and detached flame even on the adjacent block.  

Then I would just go through the wall or climb up the wall with frames or ladders and break in from upper floor window.  

Yes, environmental hazard is great idea, it just in not for the concept of this game. A good "environmental hazard" concept is hostile biomes. As it is direction the game is already going. Like having to discover and craft cold water gear to survive on snow biome. Or to lesser degree desert biome having water much more rare in it. Burned biome could require gas mask and filters that wear out. So untill you are able to craft the gear you could not access those biomes. That would give more to play for in this game. 
Then is the radiation biome (and I do not mean destroyed bome) that been discussed for years and radiation gear has even been added to game for it. 

This would be much more interesting goal than perks and new gear as that would give the player more to play for. And certain items and matrial could be more abundant in certain biomes. That would add like more depth to the game. Also that the enemy levels would not jsut magically scale up at same time  as your character gets better that makes it pointless to imrpve your charter as you are just treading water. every time you make you character little stronger the opposition just gets just as much stringer. 
Just like now the destroyed area is the high lever area in the game, the level of opponent could be by region, so player would themselves get to choose when to upp the challenge (and with it  the rewards) by moving to higher level biome. This would also encourage players to travel more, not just camp same 1-3 cities for loot respawns. 

Great points here

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc. Dunno just seems like a change that makes life a lot more complicated to resolve an issue that didn't exist. I'm honestly not understanding what the point of the change even was / what it's targeted at fixing

Hey Khal, great thing to point out.

I recently stated that one thing the devs are doing is adding things we don't need (lamps and plants) and not adding things we do need (more vanilla vehicles, more zombies - this list could go on forever.)

Your point highlights just another one of those things we didn't need

(P.s - the above is not fallacious - not either this OR that, both things could be added but I think ridding the game of at least some of the Attack of the Clones feel would be more beneficial than an old piano. I understand prop designers may not be the people who can make zombies but it begs the question of what they are doing. More POI's are added to get rid of the sameness but the most blatant interactive entities (the zombies) is apparently a non issue? Lol.)

Maybe restructure to have the fluff as a slower additiom which I'm sure people can wait for. I think I might; with therapy and meds, just be able to make it to the next alpha without being able to experience a wheelchair model.)