PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

@Jost Amman

Beelzebubs Ghost said:
The former asked a question which (something I find annoying) pushes people not so big into looting excessively (for entire collections of books or mods etc).

The latter addressed it in a manner which looked very much like we will be looting in such a way whether we like it or not.
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I think what he means is that I (former) said that it looks like these lootable schematics increase the already insane drive to go out looting, which will alienate people that don't want to go looting and just want to play mole, builder and farmer on their land.
Then you (latter) said that this is just what it is and that looting is the core gameplay and if you don't like it, you should just leave.
 

 
Beelzebubs Ghost said:
It's not my place to say which because I try not to speak to the intent of the individual, but those are the only two options per statement, without delving into finitude and pedantic analysis of nuance.

I have no idea what you mean by I '...can't have it both ways.'

No-one said neither or either do or don't have points.
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Correct. I don't know why I misread it as an "and". Though your claim that you do not speak to the intent of the individual is a bit strange when you explicitely listed assumptions why Jost did it and used negatively loaded words like "ignorantly". Well, nobody is perfect. 😉

Beelzebubs Ghost said:
The former asked a question which (something I find annoying) pushes people not so big into looting excessively (for entire collections of books or mods etc).

The latter addressed it in a manner which looked very much like we will be looting in such a way whether we like it or not.

I interjected and gave my analysis and opinion, and hoped to separate the two points. One thing I can say about your response however, I appreciate the honesty with 'If' the devs get the balance right.

And the difference between SP and MP? This is precisely my point. Giving people options and sliders, switches and knobs, dials and levers - stuff to customise the game each wants to play will play to nothing but the strength and success of the game. The alternative isn't very pretty.
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But the discrepancy between SP and MP is not a good example for that. Because all except maybe one of the specific knobs, dials and levers to make SP faster or MP slower are already there. The only one missing would be a trader knob which could be said is handled on the side with the loot abundancy option.

Not that more options aren't a bad idea. Just that developers tend to add options preferably right at the end before release.

Beelzebubs Ghost said:
Anyway I appreciate the response.

Again, I appreciate the response - and I don't know whether you didn't read my post properly or whether you have a problem formulating a response which is honestly connected to the point I made.

The options are not just 'Tediously boring' or 'Have everything at once.'

I mean no disrespect - seriously, but this really is an issue that has to be addressed. Gating in this manner is in my opinion ridiculous for reasons I will not get into (but can support if necessary) and it can backfire if not properly addressed.

There has been a lot of discussion on here on the balance between SP and Multiplayer, but I think the way TFP have gone about addressing genuine problems (and created more along the way) has been poor in many respects.

Thank you for your reply, anyway. It's nice to see a non-toxic response 👍🏻
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Viktoriusiii said:
Then you (latter) said that this is just what it is and that looting is the core gameplay and if you don't like it, you should just leave.
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I only play SP, so, from my perspective, you simply can't play without doing any looting.

Give me one example, just one, of someone playing the game in single player (even in A20), who can just focus on building, farming, or mining and ignore looting.

There's no "just leave" there, I'm just stating a fact, I'm not trying to impose something or be rude... that's just how the game plays in single player.

So, yeah, in a non-rude but blunt way, I'm kind of saying "get over it". There's no other way to play the game in SP.

As for multiplayer, I already explained that IMO you just need someone else to focus on crafting.

That person will get all the magazines from the other members of the group who go looting, or buy them from a trader or get them as quest rewards.

Then, the other more "sedentary" players, can focus on mining, building or farming all they want.

 
Jost Amman said:
I only play SP, so, from my perspective, you simply can't play without doing any looting.
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Maybe not anymore bc of the new systems.
But in earlier versions you could do everything from home.
Since you leveled skills by doing them (or spending points that you gained by mining) you were able to craft anything you needed, and if you REALLY wanted, you could go to the trader and stock up.

Nowadays with the uncraftable items and weapon/Armorparts, this has become really hard, but still possible, because you can still buy the tools you need from ressources you mined. And since you unlock items via leveling, you can simply spend your skillpoints there.
Not ideal in any way, but still at least SOMEWHAT plausible.
If you now could not even get better without looting, that would be the deathnail, but as stated, that was a misunderstanding on my part.
But still... all recipes being locked behind looting makes this already very hard playstyle nearly impossible.

So yes, it is already hard. That is why I was questioning the designchoice, because it makes it even harder for ppl that enjoy that part of the game.

 

*edit* stop it Kuosimodo! Your taunting positive/nice/non-negative reactions are worse than the negative ones I am used to from you -_-

 
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Viktoriusiii said:
Since you leveled skills by doing them (or spending points that you gained by mining) you were able to craft anything you needed, and if you REALLY wanted, you could go to the trader and stock up.
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This is LBD nostalgia. LBD is gone, is never coming back and was never meant to stay. It was a temporary solution to leveling while they were cooking the current system.

As long as people keep pushing for LBD to come back, they'll always be disappointed with the current game.

Viktoriusiii said:
Nowadays with the uncraftable items and weapon/Armorparts, this has become really hard, but still possible, because you can still buy the tools you need from ressources you mined. And since you unlock items via leveling, you can simply spend your skillpoints there.
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Ok, so you play your games without looting at all? I mean, even if you can learn how to craft (i.e.) a Steel Axe, where do you get your steel?

You'll need a crucible. Where do you get it? The only option would be a very lucky dice roll with the trader, otherwise you'll need to dismantle streetlights and such or loot.

I can't understand if this some kind of tenant or what... why can't you do a little bit of exploration or looting?

Are you jimping yourself on purpose just to prove a point?  :suspicious:

 
Jost Amman said:
Ok, so you play your games without looting at all? I mean, even if you can learn how to craft (i.e.) a Steel Axe, where do you get your steel?

You'll need a crucible. Where do you get it? The only option would be a very lucky dice roll with the trader, otherwise you'll need to dismantle streetlights and such or loot.

I can't understand if this some kind of tenant or what... why can't you do a little bit of exploration or looting?

Are you jimping yourself on purpose just to prove a point?  :suspicious:
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Viktoriusiii said:
Oh I'm not the target... I'm just thinking alienating like... at least 20% of your players is a bit rough :D
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I'm not that kind of player. I like exploration and looting and doing quests.
But there are other people that don't. And they aren't single digits.

It is what they find most fun, but it is getting harder and harder for them to do BECAUSE of "lootable only" items. (that was the reason for their introduction! to force players to go out looting, because they didn't like that people just stayed at their base, moling all the time)
And now they make it even harder.

 
Viktoriusiii said:
@Jost Amman

I think what he means is that I (former) said that it looks like these lootable schematics increase the already insane drive to go out looting, which will alienate people that don't want to go looting and just want to play mole, builder and farmer on their land.
Then you (latter) said that this is just what it is and that looting is the core gameplay and if you don't like it, you should just leave.
 
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Thank you - you summarised it better than me 😂👍🏻

Jost Amman said:
I only play SP, so, from my perspective, you simply can't play without doing any looting.

Give me one example, just one, of someone playing the game in single player (even in A20), who can just focus on building, farming, or mining and ignore looting.

There's no "just leave" there, I'm just stating a fact, I'm not trying to impose something or be rude... that's just how the game plays in single player.

So, yeah, in a non-rude but blunt way, I'm kind of saying "get over it". There's no other way to play the game in SP.

As for multiplayer, I already explained that IMO you just need someone else to focus on crafting.

That person will get all the magazines from the other members of the group who go looting, or buy them from a trader or get them as quest rewards.

Then, the other more "sedentary" players, can focus on mining, building or farming all they want.
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The point is (and if I might suggest the point of @Viktoriusiii and please correct me if I'm wrong) not that there is NO looting whatsoever.

That's the fallacy - and it's not a false choice. The nature of the excessive necessity of looting is not a subject that should be ignored. No matter if people don't like Viktoriusiii's point, or mine, or indeed yours, they should be open for proper discussion.

Not liking or criticising something leads to two kinds of engagements - those of the morons who don't like someone not liking something, and those of individuals who care more about 'why' people object and are willing to entertain their reasons to better understand them.

When I explained some of the mechanics that we used to have (such as smell, climber Z's, wild farming etc) and their removal to my friends who haven't played as long as me - they are utterly bemused. That fact must say something and appeal to those interested in genuine discussion on these points.

 
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Jost Amman said:
Ok, so you play your games without looting at all? I mean, even if you can learn how to craft (i.e.) a Steel Axe, where do you get your steel?

You'll need a crucible. Where do you get it? The only option would be a very lucky dice roll with the trader, otherwise you'll need to dismantle streetlights and such or loot.
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You only need 3 points in Better Barter and then you have a high chance that the trader has a crucible in his secret stash. With 4 points in Better Barter the chance increases. And with 5 out of 5 points in Better Barter, it is certain that the trader has a crucible in his secret stash.

 
unholyjoe said:
as for the question of choice... i prefer to survive and that painted wall will not fill my belly. :)
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Indeed. But I can't drink that bottle of oil. so I'd like to make paint with it. Good to know things haven't changed in regards to the paint. But they could...

 
Laran Mithras said:
With the upcoming water changes, making water more scarce and murky water so valuable...

Will there be any changes to the recipe for paint? Or will paint become the new ultra-luxury no one would want to afford?
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you get 100 paint from 1 murky water (200 if using chemistry station)

I don't really use paint so IDK how fast someone would go through that. If you can burn through hundreds of paint that quickly then would you say you're at a point where you're no longer struggling for water? (Unless maybe you're taking over an existing POI and painting over it?)

 
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@NekoPawtato. It doesn't take me long to use up paint. One unit of paint will usually cover one block face. Now some cosmetics within my base I will make a priority (eg. making a crate that holds my food look like a stove which I've put a fire ring on, or painting a crate to look like a beverage cooler which I will use for all my drinks).  But I use paint mostly to change the reflection of bars which I can shoot through. And if one's base has a fence all around, then the paint is used up quickly. And when the bars are upgraded we must paint them again. My vision has changed over the years. Not enough light is a problem. But too much light, as in the reflection from my headlamp is not good either. My solution is to Paint it Black. That black carpet texture. The shades we can wear don't help, so I revert to paint. In A21, I'll just have to suffer through it until I am swimming in excess water.

 
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Uncle Al said:
Basically 'does a perked character loot slightly fewer magazines, on average, of the things they're not perked into, or do they loot the same average haul of their unperked subjects while also picking up a few extra magazines of the things they are perked into?'
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As far as I can remember, last time they answered this question, it was the latter.

 
Roland said:
You ain't kidding and I largely ignored those from A6-A20. Now, when I see a house I run to it intending to hit the mailbox first thing with a smile of anticipation on my face. That smile changes to a scowl if it turns out to be one of those sucky houses without a mailbox...

Oh, A21 mailboxes! How beautiful your profiles are as I look down a yet to be explored street and see you there in a line, your little red flags bidding me to come and read your contents!
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I’m going to agree with you but would change it to A6-A19. With A20, mailboxes are, for me, a huge source of money on Day 1 as they always contain books. The first thing that I do when I reach a town is to hit all of the mailboxes and some of the newspaper stands if I’m brave then sell all of them. At that point I have around $2000 or more to buy food and ammo or whatever I need. When they respawn on Day 10, I return and loot to read.

 
NekoPawtato said:
you get 100 paint from 1 murky water (200 if using chemistry station)

I don't really use paint so IDK how fast someone would go through that. If you can burn through hundreds of paint that quickly then would you say you're at a point where you're no longer struggling for water? (Unless maybe you're taking over an existing POI and painting over it?)
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In my current solo, I've already burned over 3K paint just on the base of the structure alone - not a drop for the walls or interior. Normally, I go through about 4K total. This playthrough is going to be ~8K

A21 Murky water... Paint won't be viable until extremely late game if there are no changes to paint recipe.

 
Lasher said:
Can you prove it is?
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Well how many copies of the game were sold?

How many people come to the forums?

How many people actually post on the forums?

How many people complain about farming on the forums?

So obviously, farming complainers ARE a minority.

 
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