PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Laz Man]

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc. Dunno just seems like a change that makes life a lot more complicated to resolve an issue that didn't exist. I'm honestly not understanding what the point of the change even was / what it's targeted at fixing

Crafting for the most part has fallen behind in significance to looting for several alphas now.  Although looting is still involved in this change (loot mags), it does make crafting more significant again.  All Weapon / Armor parts are now more valuable since the player no longer needs to level up a specific perk in order to craft a higher quality item.  

There was also the issue of perking into a specific line of armor/weapons which would unlock all quality levels of every type in that tree.

See video explanation below.

 

[NekoPawtato]

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc. 

I feel like this problem already sort of exists with perk books 

Generally when I play with small groups we are in voice chat and someone will find a book and ask "anyone need ____ book?" 

Or if we specialize and know who is speccing into what, we bring the book back for them

Even if we don't know who needs the book, I guess our group has more of a mindset to just bring back books anyway (if it's not a book related to what you are specializing into) because someone will end up needing it

Though if A21 means on average you'll need more inventory space while looting due to these new magazines, then it might make it more balanced if additional slots were added to the players inventory 

not necessarily one slot for each new magazine, but if these mags are very common and you constantly find them while looting then maybe some fraction of that 

 

[RipClaw]

Crafting for the most part has fallen behind in significance to looting for several alphas now.

And now crafting is controlled by looting. Yes, I know that you can buy the magazines from the trader or get them as quest rewards, but it is likely to be significantly less than the amount you get when you loot. So the progress will be much slower without looting.
 

All Weapon / Armor parts are now more valuable since the player no longer needs to level up a specific perk in order to craft a higher quality item.  

That's about the only advantage. But you can't craft the parts, you have to loot them as well.

This makes looting and zombie killing the only two aspects of the game that are not optional. You don't have to build a base to survive, you don't have to have a farm, and mining isn't something you have to do to survive. This makes me very sad because these are the aspects that brought me to the game in the first place.

 

[Jost Amman]

That's about the only advantage. But you can't craft the parts, you have to loot them as well.

Do you mean you wish to go back to (what was it?) A9/A10 where you had molds to craft the parts? It's been ages since anyone was able to craft gun parts in the game, so why is this any different from the previous versions? You've had to loot parts since forever: nothing has changed there.

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc.

OMG!! That's atrocious! ... Are you saying the friends in your group will have to think about you when going out looting?  :faint2:

But seriously, you MP/COOP guys are always lamenting about this and that, what about us Single Players?

I'm still waiting for TFP to fix Charismatic Nature to have some use in SP too! What about that?

You're seeing things from you MP/COOP player point of view, but I only play SP, and from my own perspective these changes sound fun and necessary to get a better survival experience all in all.

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The real issue here, IMHO, is that the devs should make some parts of the game "act" differently, depending on how the player is playing.

If the player is playing MP/COOP, make some perks/skills work one way. If the player is playing SP, make some perks/skills play a different way.

You can't possibly and reasonably have a good gameplay balance for both MP and SP at the same time!

 

[RipClaw]

Do you mean you wish to go back to (what was it?) A9/A10 where you had molds to craft the parts? It's been ages since anyone was able to craft gun parts in the game, so why is this any different from the previous versions? You've had to loot parts since forever: nothing has changed there.

Actually, there is no need to go back to A9 or A10. Up to A18, only firearms and power tools required parts. Everything else could be made without parts. In A17 you could also make firearms without parts because they removed them from the game. In A18, the non-craftable parts made their comeback. 
 

I had meant this in the context that you can get the magazines from the trader. They are just not much use without the parts you have to loot. If you buy the parts from the trader and then sell him the crafted weapon, that is unlikely to be profitable.

 

[Khalagar]

 it does make crafting more significant again. 

Were loot drops changed, I'm not finding info that? Since like he even brought up in the video you linked, using the A20 loot drops at least, there's literally no situation where I would *ever* bother crafting a gun in A21, I would just run quests to get it from the boss loot chest or the quest reward literally a thousand times faster than trying to find hundreds of magazines to unlock a high quality, high tier craftable.

Not to mention  it still being completely pointless to waste resources crafting if you still can't craft T6

OMG!! That's atrocious! ... Are you saying the friends in your group will have to think about you when going out looting?  :faint2:

Tell me you've never played multiplayer without telling you've never played multiplayer lol

Just getting people not to instantly eat every skill book is often hard, and begging them to pick up the loot and materials that aren't just bullets / guns is nigh impossible with the types who just want to raid PoI nonstop. But more than that, asking them to bring back an entire inventory full of books (the video shows it taking 60+ books to unlock TIER ONE versions of weapons) isn't addressing my entire point, that it just ends a whole role in the game for people who like to build and mine and stuff.

You don't have to build a base to survive, you don't have to have a farm, and mining isn't something you have to do to survive

This. Mining was basically deleted from the game with A19 and A20, and now building and stuff will be very sub-optimal because you aren't spending that time looting for skill books instead. I used to always be a miner who lived at bedrock up until the changes to stamina and food drain made it so mining without an auger was a total farce, so I haven't had a bedrock base or bothered mining much at all in the last few alpha.

It's so weird what areas the devs focus on. If someone says "Why should I play 7 Days to Die over Rust with a zombie mod or any other survival game" you start talking about the voxel based terrain allowing you to mine and do all kinds of really cool stuff, except that has basically been completely ditched / ignored and there's literally no reason to ever dig in 7 Days anymore. Each alpha seems to turn the game more into just a looter shooter, where it has fierce competition from other survival games that already have that niche well covered, and to me, it makes me scratch my head on why the devs don't instead focus on the unique aspect of 7 Days by adding underground cave systems with infected nests and tunneling zombies and other voxel only ideas

 

[Arma Rex]

yes the plains was removed ages ago... but the burnt biome has been blended in with the wasteland biome now.

View attachment 26071

I'd like to see the forest and plain make a return. Perhaps blending the forest with the pine, and the plains with the desert. One can dream ha ha.

 

[Jost Amman]

Actually, there is no need to go back to A9 or A10. Up to A18, only firearms and power tools required parts. Everything else could be made without parts. In A17 you could also make firearms without parts because they removed them from the game. In A18, the non-craftable parts made their comeback. 
 

I had meant this in the context that you can get the magazines from the trader. They are just not much use without the parts you have to loot. If you buy the parts from the trader and then sell him the crafted weapon, that is unlikely to be profitable.

Good point. I forgot they removed parts at some point. Anyway, the "parts conundrum" can be solved by having others give you the parts they loot (not ideal), or just buy Q1 weapons from the trader and scrap them for the parts you need.

As for the "profit / loss" mechanics, if you want to profit, don't sell the weapons you craft! ... heck, selling each of the parts separately instead of the whole gun has always been more profitable! Crafting should be used to make stuff you (and your group) actually need.

The problem with the current version has always been that you rarely can craft stuff when really you need it. Partly, because you don't have the skill level, but mostly, because you can't find enough parts to craft that coveted gun.

 

[Jost Amman]

Were loot drops changed, I'm not finding info that? Since like he even brought up in the video you linked, using the A20 loot drops at least, there's literally no situation where I would *ever* bother crafting a gun in A21, I would just run quests to get it from the boss loot chest or the quest reward literally a thousand times faster than trying to find hundreds of magazines to unlock a high quality, high tier craftable.

The problem is not in the game, the problem is in how "power-levelers" play. You seem to be in this category, and whatever mechanics is there, it'll never be efficient enough for you. My suggestion is to try and play in a more relaxed and natural way. Traders and quests are already considered OP by most players and I think TFP knows that and they're nerfing both the trader sale-lists and the job rewards.

Not to mention  it still being completely pointless to waste resources crafting if you still can't craft T6

I think you meant Q6? ... Well, the devs said they'll be considering this, but in any case, as I already argued before with someone else on this, it's absolutely NOT a waste of time. The reason is that the game has progression, and when you're still in that phase of the game where you need <Q6 stuff, then you definitively need q1->q5 stuff!

People think that unless you can have something be great all the time, then it's worthless... I disagree. The same goes for Pack Mule after you find all Triple Pockets. The same goes for Well Insulated after you find all the best protecting clothing. Same goes for Greasy Monkey, after you've crafted all the vehicles you need (or you have enough money to buy them all from traders).

As you can see, there's a counter-point for each one of your complaints.

I'm not saying they shouldn't consider balancing the new system to be more MP-friendly, I'm sure they're already doing that.

I'm saying that change is always unwelcome when people are stuck in their ways, no matter what. Embrace change!  eace:

 

[meganoth]

I really love return to sandom recipies. Fist step (back) to right direction in years. 

But "Interactive Environmental Hazards" 
that filed concept in context of this game. Year is is that lazy and hacky "puzzle" in solo computer game but did you forgot this is VOXEL game. 
1st thing I would do is destroy the broken pipe block, not expecting it to put out the fire but just to my suspicion that have no effect on the now completely illogical and detached flame even on the adjacent block.  

Then I would just go through the wall or climb up the wall with frames or ladders and break in from upper floor window.  

Yes, environmental hazard is great idea, it just in not for the concept of this game. A good "environmental hazard" concept is hostile biomes. As it is direction the game is already going. Like having to discover and craft cold water gear to survive on snow biome. Or to lesser degree desert biome having water much more rare in it. Burned biome could require gas mask and filters that wear out. So untill you are able to craft the gear you could not access those biomes. That would give more to play for in this game. 
Then is the radiation biome (and I do not mean destroyed bome) that been discussed for years and radiation gear has even been added to game for it. 

This would be much more interesting goal than perks and new gear as that would give the player more to play for. And certain items and matrial could be more abundant in certain biomes. That would add like more depth to the game. Also that the enemy levels would not jsut magically scale up at same time  as your character gets better that makes it pointless to imrpve your charter as you are just treading water. every time you make you character little stronger the opposition just gets just as much stringer. 
Just like now the destroyed area is the high lever area in the game, the level of opponent could be by region, so player would themselves get to choose when to upp the challenge (and with it  the rewards) by moving to higher level biome. This would also encourage players to travel more, not just camp same 1-3 cities for loot respawns. 

I agree. The radiation zone is an untapped potential. And without that auto-leveling there would have been more depth to the game. In RPGs I hate auto-leveling. In a game like 7D2D it is ... acceptable and even has some advantages too.

Some things like the tower defense part are much easier to get right when there is auto-leveling: You don't need to build your horde-base somewhere else again just to get a more difficult horde. 

The difficulty by region idea has another problem with current 7D2D afaik: To have enough different enemy power levels you would need many more biomes, each representing a different danger level. Now because of the voxel nature of the game the graphics library and maybe graphics card texture space enforce limits to how many biomes are possible. Even the biomes available before A17 would not have been enough and they had to be reduced already for technical reasons.  The game can not simply go back anymore even if they wanted. So no more biomes unless miracles happen.

Lastly, as much as I like the idea, I recognize that the chance it will be implemented in 7D2D is zero by now. Not low, not very low, literally zero. I can not think of ANY realistic szenario in which TFP would now restart development and add another 2 alphas just to throw out something that has been driving all manner of progression in the game forever(?). TFP has said we are on the last leg of development, the changes will get smaller and smaller while the big last change gets developed, bandits.

 

[meganoth]

Great points here

Hey Khal, great thing to point out.

I recently stated that one thing the devs are doing is adding things we don't need (lamps and plants) and not adding things we do need (more vanilla vehicles, more zombies - this list could go on forever.)

Your point highlights just another one of those things we didn't need

(P.s - the above is not fallacious - not either this OR that, both things could be added but I think ridding the game of at least some of the Attack of the Clones feel would be more beneficial than an old piano. I understand prop designers may not be the people who can make zombies but it begs the question of what they are doing.

If you are asking what the designers and programmers are doing who COULD make new zombies, there is an easy and obvious answer and you should find it immediately. It starts with b - and - it's even hidden somewhere in this sentence if you still need a hint.

More POI's are added to get rid of the sameness but the most blatant interactive entities (the zombies) is apparently a non issue? Lol.)

Yes, POI designers can not help with making zombies. That is how it is in the industry, most people working there are one-trick-ponies. Can you do two "tricks" ? Can you do them both at a professionally high quality level ? Are you really better than them?

Maybe restructure to have the fluff as a slower additiom which I'm sure people can wait for. I think I might; with therapy and meds, just be able to make it to the next alpha without being able to experience a wheelchair model.)

 

[meganoth]

Were loot drops changed, I'm not finding info that? Since like he even brought up in the video you linked, using the A20 loot drops at least, there's literally no situation where I would *ever* bother crafting a gun in A21, I would just run quests to get it from the boss loot chest or the quest reward literally a thousand times faster than trying to find hundreds of magazines to unlock a high quality, high tier craftable.

Not to mention  it still being completely pointless to waste resources crafting if you still can't craft T6

Tell me you've never played multiplayer without telling you've never played multiplayer lol

Just getting people not to instantly eat every skill book is often hard, and begging them to pick up the loot and materials that aren't just bullets / guns is nigh impossible with the types who just want to raid PoI nonstop. But more than that, asking them to bring back an entire inventory full of books (the video shows it taking 60+ books to unlock TIER ONE versions of weapons) isn't addressing my entire point, that it just ends a whole role in the game for people who like to build and mine and stuff.

I agree that inventory space is problematic for MP games now. But I also think for someone staying back for mining, farming, mass crafting and building only a few book series are essential: The seed, cooking, electricity, meds and the traps book series. These are the 5 series other players need to bring back, everything else is optional and could be read themselves.

Yes, even the tools books don't need to be brought back as even looters are often back home at night and can craft a pick axe once in a while.

And I think the habit will grow for players to put secure storage boxes in the streets before POIs to collect stuff (if the inventory does not get an increase).

Real co-op players that is. One part of co-op play is to fight together and win. The other part is to help other players and feel good about it. We all do it with books already.  You have collected a bunch of die-hard PvP or single-players and try to play something with them they don't really seem to want.

This. Mining was basically deleted from the game with A19 and A20, and now building and stuff will be very sub-optimal because you aren't spending that time looting for skill books instead. I used to always be a miner who lived at bedrock up until the changes to stamina and food drain made it so mining without an auger was a total farce, so I haven't had a bedrock base or bothered mining much at all in the last few alpha.

It's so weird what areas the devs focus on. If someone says "Why should I play 7 Days to Die over Rust with a zombie mod or any other survival game" you start talking about the voxel based terrain allowing you to mine and do all kinds of really cool stuff, except that has basically been completely ditched / ignored and there's literally no reason to ever dig in 7 Days anymore. Each alpha seems to turn the game more into just a looter shooter, where it has fierce competition from other survival games that already have that niche well covered, and to me, it makes me scratch my head on why the devs don't instead focus on the unique aspect of 7 Days by adding underground cave systems with infected nests and tunneling zombies and other voxel only ideas

Rust? Rust is a PvP game full of toxic players, I will never set a foot in there. Other survival games are often too much into survival to be a competition (at least for me). 7D2D is still providing a combination of features/genres that no other game can provide.

Though I agree that TFP is neglecting one of its two unique selling points a bit (the other being voxel building which got a huge upgrade lately)

 

[RipClaw]

Though I agree that TFP is neglecting one of its two unique selling points a bit (the other being voxel building which got a huge upgrade lately)

I admit that the new shapes are an improvement for builders, but building itself is still optional. There is no real advantage to build a base from scratch since many POIs are suitable as horde bases after minor adjustments.

 

[meganoth]

I admit that the new shapes are an improvement for builders, but building itself is still optional. There is no real advantage to build a base from scratch since many POIs are suitable as horde bases after minor adjustments.

I believe that was a conscious decision by TFP eventually to give more options to the player. By providing multiple solutions for many of the games resources and for combat. But whenever multiple solutions exist it follows that any single solution is optional.

 

[Matt115]

8 hours ago, Laz Man said:



Crafting for the most part has fallen behind in significance to looting for several alphas now.  Although looting is still involved in this change (loot mags), it does make crafting more significant again.  All Weapon / Armor parts are now more valuable since the player no longer needs to level up a specific perk in order to craft a higher quality item.  

There was also the issue of perking into a specific line of armor/weapons which would unlock all quality levels of every type in that tree.

See video explanation below.

Lazman... this not working that way - "All Weapon / Armor parts are now more valuable since the player no longer needs to level up a specific perk in order to craft a higher quality item.  " this cange absolute nothing for Tools/ weapons. Why? because weapon/tools need gun/weapons/tools parts that are not craftable so looting is this much significance - so this can't help nothing. In older alpha you could make steel tools and weapons just by sitting in house and mining.

So to "fix" crafting there is  two options : 1. craftable parts. 2. remove parts

 

[meganoth]

Lazman... this not working that way - "All Weapon / Armor parts are now more valuable since the player no longer needs to level up a specific perk in order to craft a higher quality item.  " this cange absolute nothing for Tools/ weapons. Why? because weapon/tools need gun/weapons/tools parts that are not craftable so looting is this much significance - so this can't help nothing. In older alpha you could make steel tools and weapons just by sitting in house and mining.

So to "fix" crafting there is  two options : 1. craftable parts. 2. remove parts

3. Change availability of parts 4. change number of parts needed in the recipes

 

[Matt115]

3. Change availability of parts 4. change number of parts needed in the recipes

Still would make looting more effective that crafting except situation when "complete" weapon/tool would be very rare so hunting for parts would be more practical

 

[RipClaw]

So to "fix" crafting there is  two options : 1. craftable parts. 2. remove parts

My idea would be to separate crafting and looting somewhat. There are already items you can't craft. How about items you can't loot?

 

[Matt115]

My idea would be to separate crafting and looting somewhat. There are already items you can't craft. How about items you can't loot?

Well...this can't work that way because this would be not logical. This is post apo right? so.. some things you can't make anymore because you don't have advance machines like lasers etc. 

 

[RipClaw]

Well...this can't work that way because this would be not logical. This is post apo right? so.. some things you can't make anymore because you don't have advance machines like lasers etc. 

We can weld the chassis of a truck, a motorcycle or a gyrocopter without even having a welder. Therefore, it is not that implausible.