PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Roland]

Show me one game that changed it's fundamental systems for 5 times (and still didnt settle on how should their game work, other than "you have to scav, sry no other playing style"), removed half of the features, and is in works since 2013. Other than star citizen.

I'm only coming back every several months, cause i still cant copy with how did you guys make a complete mess of a game of such huge potential.

As @meganoth stated, most games are developed behind closed doors so we cannot see their creative process. But editing is a well known part of any creative process and to demand the creation of something without ever making edits is not reasonable.

Someone can certainly have the opinion that a rough draft is better than its final version. Since you’ve now delivered that opinion a few times since the time of A17 there is no need to keep doing it. The time where such an opinion might cause a turnabout is long past. Now it is just futile repetitive complaining for the purposes of trolling community members by derailing their questions. 
 

It’s natural for a child to pester and cry for a candy while in the checkout line. For them to still do it in the parking lot after having been told no, firmly, is just bad manners. For this game, we are in the bus about a block from arriving home and for you to still be going on about that candy back in the checkout line is just beyond rude and boorish behavior. 
 

Once and for all, the vision and potential you assumed and wanted for the game back in A16 was not the vision and potential the developers had in mind. No amount of pestering will change that at this point so it’s time to cope and readjust your expectations or move on to other games you enjoy. “Go back to A16 gameplay” is not useful feedback. 

 

[ltbrunt]

I now doubt A21 is coming out this year. With them keen on doing the streamer weekend, then release and possibly have to work during Christmas break. At this rate skip A21 and start working toward a release of A22 next year. We went this long waiting a little bit longer is not big a deal. I the game is playable in its current form. I have nothing to complain about. I rather wait for bandits in A22 or A23. We know updates are coming and that is good enough for me.

 

[Guest]

That'll stump em

I bet you were all fingers and thumbs while you type that while you hopped off to get a head with this armless fun

 

[BFT2020]

I now doubt A21 is coming out this year. With them keen on doing the streamer weekend, then release and possibly have to work during Christmas break. At this rate skip A21 and start working toward a release of A22 next year. We went this long waiting a little bit longer is not big a deal. I the game is playable in its current form. I have nothing to complain about. I rather wait for bandits in A22 or A23. We know updates are coming and that is good enough for me.

You may not want A21, but there are those of us who are looking forward to it.  Better idea, you skip A21 while the rest of us play it  

You are also assuming that everyone at TFP are just working on A21.  While a lot of work is ongoing for the A21, I bet there is still work going on for other aspects of the game that are not ready for A21 release.

 

[lord_ahriman]

You may not want A21, but there are those of us who are looking forward to it.  Better idea, you skip A21 while the rest of us play it  

You are also assuming that everyone at TFP are just working on A21.  While a lot of work is ongoing for the A21, I bet there is still work going on for other aspects of the game that are not ready for A21 release.

Yeah, I hate the so called "Learn by Reading" doesn't mean I'm not gonna play A21. You need yo try, if you don't like I'm pretty sure there will be mods changing this.

 

[warmer]

i cant explain but... the process is so demanding that heads are gonna roll.

also every now and then, zobbies can lend you a hand or leg or all.

I really want the ability to use a big booted biker leg as a club when my wooden one breaks. Even better... A frozen lumberjack leg would make a nice ping sound when whacked against a zed skull

 

[meganoth]

Another "classic" thing removed. Yeah maybe even just removed "single" perks and left just categories to make this game even more casual xd

The increase in balance between attributes is huge. The overall decrease in difficulty is almost negligible, especially if most players simply took Strength to avoid the increased difficulty of paying for sexrex in other attributes.

---> A 99.983% positive change

 

[Matt115]

The increase in balance between attributes is huge. The overall decrease in difficulty is almost negligible, especially if most players simply took Strength to avoid the increased difficulty of paying for sexrex in other attributes.

---> A 99.983% positive change

Removed : throwing spear,  water, now this - no this is "classic" elements -  like guns in toilets. "balance" I think is the best favourite arguments here with "make game funnier" - no - better to just some things as they are because are unique - most games don't have spear throwing, i think jar huting (because you lose them during making food) was pretty "meme" but in positive mean - sexual T-rex with miner 69ner was "meme" too. It's like - fix roarch in witcher 3. Could be done but better to left just because is classic. But nah "maker game funnier"

 

[Halcyon]

@Roland

II like the sex rex change ALOT, it frees up skill points.  Also,   not unlocking recipes via skill points also frees up points (which is also amazing).   This must feel great to play more freely and have points to spend.  However-- does it make the game way easier since you have tons of skill points to spare and put wherever you want?   or are there challenges that offset this?

IMO the freeing up of those skill points could make more playstyles more workable. All the crafting and combat bonuses of STR and INT likely had a disproportionate amount of players putting most of their skill points in those trees.

Maybe TFP wanted to even it out a bit more and make the previously weaker weapons more enticing now that strength doesn't have the jewel that was Sexy Rex?

As for the skill points freed up by Learn By Reading, i wanna guess and say that the new crafting system is going to be brutal(ly annoying) and will make that a lot harder and traders have obviously been nerfed a bit now too. So while our builds will be easier to make and more workable, the progression seems to be balanced much slower in A21 (from what we've seen obvs)

So my guess on how it's gonna go would be:
-Making a well rounded character is gonna be easier/faster.

BUT

-Getting better gear and general survival (thanks to water rework) is gonna be harder.

Which tbh, is a welcome change for me because this is meant to be a survival game so the main factor of your survival should be your own actual player skill rather than your characters in-world skill.

Maybe Roland will let us in on their TFP insider wisdom and confirm or absolutely smoke my wild speculation.

 

[meganoth]

Removed : throwing spear,  water, now this - no this is "classic" elements -  like guns in toilets. "balance" I think is the best favourite arguments here with "make game funnier" - no - better to just some things as they are because are unique - most games don't have spear throwing, i think jar huting (because you lose them during making food) was pretty "meme" but in positive mean - sexual T-rex with miner 69ner was "meme" too. It's like - fix roarch in witcher 3. Could be done but better to left just because is classic. But nah "maker game funnier"

A meme is nice when it otherwise doesn't distort or worsen the game. I'm all for keeping the turd or pistols in toilets, the latter could be called a meme by now.

But calling everything a meme just to keep it is just the same old fear of change a lot of players here have. Putting jars on a pedestal and calling them a meme is really strange.

Why would you think they are a meme now and not just that you became used to them? Sure, anything that you find in the game in the hundreds is burned into your brain. But that doesn't mean it is a meme or if it is that it is a positive meme.

There is nothing special about sexrex, except that the name is funny. Exactly the thing you are complaining about in respect to other things in 7D2D.

 

[Halcyon]

Removed : throwing spear,  water, now this - no this is "classic" elements -  like guns in toilets. "balance" I think is the best favourite arguments here with "make game funnier" - no - better to just some things as they are because are unique - most games don't have spear throwing, i think jar huting (because you lose them during making food) was pretty "meme" but in positive mean - sexual T-rex with miner 69ner was "meme" too. It's like - fix roarch in witcher 3. Could be done but better to left just because is classic. But nah "maker game funnier"

"most games don't have spear throwing"

Rust, Medieval Dynasty, Ark Survival Evolved, Conan Exiles, The Forest and pretty much every other survival game which has spears, has throwable spears. It's absolutely not a certified 7DTD original concept. "Classic" cannot apply to spears in this game anyway they were added like 3 updates ago. Throwable spears are not to this game what diamonds are to minecraft.

 

[Matt115]

"most games don't have spear throwing"

Rust, Medieval Dynasty, Ark Survival Evolved, Conan Exiles, The Forest and pretty much every other survival game which has spears, has throwable spears. It's absolutely not a certified 7DTD original concept. "Classic" cannot apply to spears in this game anyway they were added like 3 updates ago. Throwable spears are not to this game what diamonds are to minecraft.

Ok with one of this game are zombie game? okay you are new guy.  So you coudn't don't know what i mean. Only DL2. And dl2 spears are rly limited. 

3 updates ago is a lot in 7dtd situation. This is not  MD where updated were pretty offten.

A meme is nice when it otherwise doesn't distort or worsen the game. I'm all for keeping the turd or pistols in toilets, the latter could be called a meme by now.

But calling everything a meme just to keep it is just the same old fear of change a lot of players here have. Putting jars on a pedestal and calling them a meme is really strange.

Why would you think they are a meme now and not just that you became used to them? Sure, anything that you find in the game in the hundreds is burned into your brain. But that doesn't mean it is a meme or if it is that it is a positive meme.

There is nothing special about sexrex, except that the name is funny. Exactly the thing you are complaining about in respect to other things in 7D2D.

This is no fear. just... observation. I remember talk with my friends about hunting for jar, i saw a lot of complaining about losing a jar during cooking etc. So - if this was working good why to change? It was specific (jar while most games have bottles) and just removed loosing jar after cooking and i think it would be all - well not a lot of can be told about jars right? 

If something is not broken don't fix it . I never saw complain about "there is too much of water in game". 

Yes cool name - that's all what you need - Elden ring have godskin, Cod - overgrown, stalker - cool names of characters etc.

If i hear - de dust - i think CS

when i hear - crowbar - half live2

cheeky breeky - stalker

shotgun range - cod

What about 7dtd -  miner 69er and sexsrex. what's in your opinion sounds more "characteristic"?

 

[Halcyon]

Overall in my opinion this change regarding Sex Rex is a fantastic design choice and should encourage build diversity. Mining tools wasn't covered in the changelog, so I assume that Miner 69er will govern their own individual stamina reduction bonus per rank.

Yes, and it's gonna make the shovel cultists even more zealous.
 

As you perk into tools it also reduces stamina use so Sex rex has been incorporated into tools as well.

 

[BFT2020]

Removed : throwing spear,  water, now this

Um, I am pretty sure water is still in the game.  Otherwise faatal spent a lot of work on water mechanics for nothing 

Perks have to be revamped because of the changes to the crafting system.  So it is only natural to revisit all of the perks and see what makes sense and what doesn't.  And changing Sex Rex was a natural go.  If you look at the current system, strength tree has is OP when you look at melee fighting - it has sex rex as one of the perks you can spec into as you raise your strength level.  On top of that, once you complete the Batter Up book series, you get your stamina refreshed every time you get a kill.  So now with the change, other melee weapons can get a stamina benefit without having to drop up to 8 points in strength to max out Sex Rex.  Plus, other changes are coming that we won't find out (probably) until A21 is dropped - that has been hinted already by the people testing out A21 and visit the forums.

Jars - 

If something is not broken don't fix it . I never saw complain about "there is too much of water in game". 

Depends on what you mean by not broken.  If by not broken means not having to make much of an effort to obtain water in the game, then yes, it is not broken.  But at that point, you might as well remove hydration meter and dirty water / boiled water from the game as it is trivial anyways - at most it takes up spots in your inventory.

If by broken you mean that it is just a trivial part of the game and really doesn't affect survivability, then re-examining the water situation and coming up with a new method is very much needed.

In addition, calling Sex Rex "classic" 7D2D is a stretch, a very big stretch......The current Attribute trees / Perks system we see today was no part of the original development stages in 7D2D.  If I am remembering correctly, what we have today came about around A17 - prior to that it was LBD (and not sure what it was prior to that).

 

[BFT2020]

As for the skill points freed up by Learn By Reading, i wanna guess and say that the new crafting system is going to be brutal(ly annoying) and will make that a lot harder and traders have obviously been nerfed a bit now too. So while our builds will be easier to make and more workable, the progression seems to be balanced much slower in A21 (from what we've seen obvs)

Actually, I been looking forward to this change now; especially the fact that you can't craft a Q5 autoshottie as soon as you can craft a Q5 double barrel.

But then again, I modded my game to remove the recipes from perk unlocks so it aligns more with my playstyle so me looking forward to it is natural.

There are some other positives about it that don't get mentioned as much (at least from my perspective):

• Old system - you randomly find schematics and will often find ones you already either unlocked or read
  
• New system - each time you find the magazine for that crafting skill, you increase your level with it - maybe unlocking the next Quality tier or next tier of weapon
  
  This might seem minor, but seeing yourself making progress is motivating rather than finding 10 schematics and you already have all of them unlocked
  

[*] 

[*]Old system - you couldn't increase the odds of finding a specific schematic unless you find certain crates - which is why Crack a Book POIs were highly sought out

[*]New system - if you perk into Shotgun Messiah, you increase your chances of finding those magazines 

[*]Also New system - hints by Roland and Laz Man indicate that just going to a specific POI has a bigger chance of finding a specific magazine now

[*] 

[*]Old system - how many times have we opened up crack a book crates or looted shelves and our reward was paper?

[*]New system - with all of the crafting skill categories, magazines will be more abundant and a lot less paper found when search for crafting skill mags

 

[MechanicalLens]

If I am remembering correctly, what we have today came about around A17 - prior to that it was LBD (and not sure what it was prior to that).

Unless I'm mistaken (feel free to correct me), for the majority of alphas throughout this game's history - up until Alpha 12, 13, or 14, can't remember - there was no perk system at all.

 

[Roland]

Maybe some small indicators, like losing control for 15 seconds where the character will just stand there appearing dazed.

Do you know how many bug reports we would get from a feature like this?

 

[meganoth]

Ok with one of this game are zombie game? okay you are new guy.  So you coudn't don't know what i mean. Only DL2. And dl2 spears are rly limited. 

3 updates ago is a lot in 7dtd situation. This is not  MD where updated were pretty offten.

Lets remember here that you complain that Halcyon is comparing this game to a non-zombie game.

.

.

.

Still remember it? Good. Just checking

This is no fear. just... observation. I remember talk with my friends about hunting for jar, i saw a lot of complaining about losing a jar during cooking etc. So - if this was working good why to change? It was specific (jar while most games have bottles) and just removed loosing jar after cooking and i think it would be all - well not a lot of can be told about jars right? 

If something is not broken don't fix it . I never saw complain about "there is too much of water in game". 

TFP and Roland have given reasons why they did it, and those reasons were recapitulated by a few forum posters a few times. And since you are frequently here you can't claim you didn't hear about them.

If TFP could only ever change what forum posters were complaining about their choices would be severly limited.

And actually our main topic, before you made this into a rant about all changes you don't like, was sexrex. And yes, sexrex was broken because it was needed by all attributes but only cheap for strength.

Yes cool name - that's all what you need - Elden ring have godskin, Cod - overgrown, stalker - cool names of characters etc.

Oh look. Still remember your complaint from above? You are comparing 7d2d to a non-zombie game, another non-zombie game (with a small zombie mode in some of them) and another non-zombie game.

If i hear - de dust - i think CS

when i hear - crowbar - half live2

cheeky breeky - stalker

shotgun range - cod

What about 7dtd -  miner 69er and sexsrex. what's in your opinion sounds more "characteristic"?

What about jars? You were saying that jars were a meme. Do you think "jars" when someone mentions 7D2D?

With "sexrex" I actually went to far in my argument, it is very much linked with 7D2D and I sure will mourn it for 2 seconds. But every game actually builds memes or iconic things out of overpowered items or skills, though with sexrex the word sexual in it also might have contributed to it. Either way, OP stuff has to be toned down or removed and memes come and go. All you need is renaming another perk to "buttstroke" or "Power of Jen" and 2 years from now those will be memes and a forum user named Matt319 will say 7D2D can't just remove that as it is an essential meme

 

[Matt115]

https://community.thefunpimps.com/threads/alpha-21-dev-diary.28129/

Depends on what you mean by not broken.  If by not broken means not having to make much of an effort to obtain water in the game, then yes, it is not broken.  But at that point, you might as well remove hydration meter and dirty water / boiled water from the game as it is trivial anyways - at most it takes up spots in your inventory.

If by broken you mean that it is just a trivial part of the game and really doesn't affect survivability, then re-examining the water situation and coming up with a new method is very much needed.

In addition, calling Sex Rex "classic" 7D2D is a stretch, a very big stretch......The current Attribute trees / Perks system we see today was no part of the original development stages in 7D2D.  If I am remembering correctly, what we have today came about around A17 - prior to that it was LBD (and not sure what it was prior to that).

People doesn't complained - it wasn't buggy or "too much:" under/overpowered. Sometimes water was probably - rarery. They want to rework armor system? i agree because you have light--> heavier armors progresion so that's kinda broken. so - change this + weather = faster dehydration -> you need more water.  No change directly in water but into water

Lets remember here that you complain that Halcyon is comparing this game to a non-zombie game.

.

.

.

Still remember it? Good. Just checking

ttstroke" or "Power of Jen" and 2 years from now those will be memes and a forum user named Matt319 will say 7D2D can't just remove that as it is an essential meme

I should be more precise about that : 7dtd is At first is zombie game then sandbox game. So i think it was logical so that's why i made a shortcut - i think if someone here name "7dtd" think " you mean this  game with  zombies similiar to minecraft" 1.zombies 2. sandbox . Dayz... well is more know for PVP that zombies

Oh look. Still remember your complaint from above? You are comparing 7d2d to a non-zombie game, another non-zombie game (with a small zombie mode in some of them) and another non-zombie game.

Here is not gameplay but "funny names" category. it's like  car - car can be both in "vehicles with engine" and " vehicles with wheels" but both categories are diffrent. 

What about jars? You were saying that jars were a meme. Do you think "jars" when someone mentions 7D2D?

With "sexrex" I actually went to far in my argument, it is very much linked with 7D2D and I sure will mourn it for 2 seconds. But every game actually builds memes or iconic things out of overpowered items or skills, though with sexrex the word sexual in it also might have contributed to it. Either way, OP stuff has to be toned down or removed and memes come and go. All you need is renaming another perk to "buttstroke" or "Power of Jen" and 2 years from now those will be memes and a forum user named Matt319 will say 7D2D can't just remove that as it is an essential meme

Probably - depends how situation will looks like

but ok - what's the best know about 7dtd in memes category

1. Never ending alpha

2. vultures

3. jars

4. silly names of perks

when i see what TFP doing what will stay?

2. vultures

xd

TFP and Roland have given reasons why they did it, and those reasons were recapitulated by a few forum posters a few times. And since you are frequently here you can't claim you didn't hear about them.

If TFP could only ever change what forum posters were complaining about their choices would be severly limited.

And actually our main topic, before you made this into a rant about all changes you don't like, was sexrex. And yes, sexrex was broken because it was needed by all attributes but only cheap for strength.

This same cod devs made reasons why they change perks in new cod. People complaing a lot and i think remember how many people just "why?" - This same thing with LBL Yes TFP and Roland have given reaons but i think halve still are against that. Because just simple.... it worked. not perfect but worked good just good enough to not waist time on this - using TFP logic - advance engineering and lucky lotter should be removed too - advance enginnering is neccesary to improve mining like miner69 - because using both you can get much more ores that using only miner69 - this same lucky looter because increasing chance to get better tier tools if more effetive that more ores by 1 hit with weaker tool. sexrex was usefull not only for fighting but for mining/get inside Poi too because it inflenced tools too. 

Okay if this would make  like for example - miner69 will get this lower stamina use of pickaxe - this will accetable. Becuase just removing it will make tools less usefull

 

[meganoth]

https://community.thefunpimps.com/threads/alpha-21-dev-diary.28129/

People doesn't complained - it wasn't buggy or "too much:" under/overpowered. Sometimes water was probably - rarery. They want to rework armor system? i agree because you have light--> heavier armors progresion so that's kinda broken. so - change this + weather = faster dehydration -> you need more water.  No change directly in water but into water

I should be more precise about that : 7dtd is At first is zombie game then sandbox game. So i think it was logical so that's why i made a shortcut - i think if someone here name "7dtd" think " you mean this  game with  zombies similiar to minecraft" 1.zombies 2. sandbox . Dayz... well is more know for PVP that zombies

Here is not gameplay but "funny names" category. it's like  car - car can be both in "vehicles with engine" and " vehicles with wheels" but both categories are diffrent. 

Probably - depends how situation will looks like

but ok - what's the best know about 7dtd in memes category

1. Never ending alpha

2. vultures

3. jars

4. silly names of perks

Jars? No.

when i see what TFP doing what will stay?

2. vultures

xd

How will the world react to the jar meme vanishing? Will a youtuber cry in pain? Will netflix produce of movie about the vanishing?

I think nobody will notice the absence of a meme that wasn't there in the first place

This same cod devs made reasons why they change perks in new cod. People complaing a lot and i think remember how many people just "why?" - This same thing with LBL Yes TFP and Roland have given reaons but i think halve still are against that. Because just simple.... it worked. not perfect but worked good just good enough to not waist time on this - using TFP logic - advance engineering and lucky lotter should be removed too - advance enginnering is neccesary to improve mining like miner69

Advance engineering improves mining? What strange mushroom have you been smoking?

- because using both you can get much more ores that using only miner69 - this same lucky looter because increasing chance to get better tier tools if more effetive that more ores by 1 hit with weaker tool. sexrex was usefull not only for fighting but for mining/get inside Poi too because it inflenced tools too. 

Okay if this would make  like for example - miner69 will get this lower stamina use of pickaxe - this will accetable. Becuase just removing it will make tools less usefull