PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

The increase in balance between attributes is huge. The overall decrease in difficulty is almost negligible, especially if most players simply took Strength to avoid the increased difficulty of paying for sexrex in other attributes.

---> A 99.983% positive change 😉
calling you out here

show me your workings

 
I'm a little concerned with the Skills = Magazine's thing as just going to towns and looting all the newspaper stands and mailboxes could be the new "player progression" normal routine.

I was thinking that completing missions should give you the very highest chance for getting Skill Magazines.  (Everything else no more than 1 or 2 percent).

And, maybe, the tier of the POI will be the maximum tier of the magazine.  This would make Tier 5 POI's worth the threat and use of ammo required (otherwise they are mostly a waste (some tier 4's are currently a waste too IMO). 

Sorry if this all this has been hashed over, just my 2 cents worth.

 
looting all the newspaper stands and mailboxes could be the new "player progression" normal routine.
I would guess magazines will also be given as quest rewards,

maybe even with a choice (to lower the chance you get something offered that you don't need/want or already have)

The rest will mainly depend on how "smart" the container's loot table is balanced.

Everybody going out to raid book stores to boost progression is already a thing in A20.

I don't think they will make it so that the gameplay will lean even more towards that behaviour.

 
I would guess magazines will also be given as quest rewards,

maybe even with a choice (to lower the chance you get something offered that you don't need/want or already have)

The rest will mainly depend on how "smart" the container's loot table is balanced.

Everybody going out to raid book stores to boost progression is already a thing in A20.

I don't think they will make it so that the gameplay will lean even more towards that behaviour.


I really like the idea of a trader not giving you duplicates of manuals they already gave you!

When skills are only gotten by books/manuals this will make the small bookstores way too important.  The tier 5(?) bookstore has few places to get manuals but the one that's a part of a strip mall will be smashed into every time!    

 
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I do hope it turns into more of a "pinned recipe" feature. I guess we'll see how it developed when A21 drops.
According to what I have read the UI will be overhauled but not for A21. So there is a chance that this feature will be further improved. I hope for a UI similar to Undead Legacy.

 
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Advance engineering improves mining? What strange mushroom have you been smoking?


You don't smoke mushrooms, silly. Anything above 50°C destroys the compounds. 🙃

But on a more serious note: is there any water container system coming to replace glass jars? Like, DayZ for example nailed it with being able to store water in cooking pots, barrels, jerrycans, regular plastic bottles, water pouches and water canteens. Just removing glass jars seems like an odd decision. Maybe I missed something...

 
You don't smoke mushrooms, silly. Anything above 50°C destroys the compounds. 🙃

But on a more serious note: is there any water container system coming to replace glass jars? Like, DayZ for example nailed it with being able to store water in cooking pots, barrels, jerrycans, regular plastic bottles, water pouches and water canteens. Just removing glass jars seems like an odd decision. Maybe I missed something...
Currently there is no early water difficulty.  Spend 1 perk, make 100 jars, fill at a pond.  Removing jars from the game makes the early water more difficult.

You will still find servings of water, but the jar aspect of it is only in the gui.  Like bowls for soup and gas cans for gas, those will just be used as the visual.

 
I would guess magazines will also be given as quest rewards,

maybe even with a choice (to lower the chance you get something offered that you don't need/want or already have)

The rest will mainly depend on how "smart" the container's loot table is balanced.

Everybody going out to raid book stores to boost progression is already a thing in A20.

I don't think they will make it so that the gameplay will lean even more towards that behaviour.
I'm fairly certain there's already been an official comment that traders will offer both a single magazine, but you know what you're getting, or a random grab bag of nine magazines, as quest rewards.

To add to a few of the comments made in recent posts:

You cannot get a 'duplicate' magazine. Unless you've maxxed out that crafting skill (so you're 60/60 or 100/100 in a certain type of crafting) then every magazine you find is useful. Magazines don't have issue numbers, they're not like books. You just have a generic 'sharp sticks' magazine and when you've found 60 of them you've mastered spear crafting.

Magazines don't affect skills generally, only crafting skills. The normal perk system is still in place for all non-crafting skills. (Hopefully with a fairly major revamp of the perks)

There's been no indication magazines have 'tiers'. The first copy of Engineering Weekly and the last one you find are identical, but they unlock different things depending on how far your skill has progressed. Although it's not been explicitly discounted that higher loot stages might skew which brand of magazine you find, the implication seems to be strongly that it's container type that has the biggest effect, with a slight modifier for which skills you're perked in.

 
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Currently there is no early water difficulty.  Spend 1 perk, make 100 jars, fill at a pond.  Removing jars from the game makes the early water more difficult.

You will still find servings of water, but the jar aspect of it is only in the gui.  Like bowls for soup and gas cans for gas, those will just be used as the visual.
I mean I understand that but I find that to be a bit of a questionable creative decision. Just like the decision to use a magazine extender attachment (seriously? 😂) as opposed to implementing proper magazines of different sizes. Streamlining is the death of depth, we've seen this time and time again.

Like, wouldn't it be a much neater difficulty implementation to actually have to find a fuel canister to be able to pick up fuel from gas pumps? Just a fluid container system that you can freely use for either water or fuel, whatever you need it for right now? You couldn't just spend 1 perk, make 100 jars from 2 minutes of digging dirt and sand, and be set... if you had to find a proper canteen or something and then refill that, and if the crafting of water storage was more difficult than just "forging it" - for example requiring you to hunt deer, gather animal hide, tan leather, and then turn that into a water pouch instead... you'd be much more limited on water storage, the difficulty would still be there, it would actually persist into the later game as well to some degree, and overall it would just have more depth.

I love 7dtd, it is my fav game, I have almost 2000 hours on it on steam... but dang, streamlining really has killed a number of its systems.

I thought the best version of the skill tree was the learning by doing with additional skill point spending on special skills from Alpha 16 (and lots of mods replicate something like that these days, so it seems the community has come around to agree on that also).

I thought the best version of gun crafting was the one with molds.

I thought the best version of the health system was the final version with Wellness (just the whole thing of using antibiotics to boost it was a bit weird - fresh foods should've given wellness, thats what I think).

And I thought when the game started out with magazines as opposed to singular bullets that it would go in a similar direction to DayZ perhaps with different mag sizes as opposed to the bogus "mag extender" attachment we have now ... that would've also been sweet.

Idk, it feels like for every thing they improve they ruin another thing through streamlining / dumbing it down. I am still looking forward to A21, but it is gonna have a tough time beating the fun I had with A20 and A16, the two best prior versions of the game in my view.

At least cities aren't just a circle anymore. The A20 cities are brilliant.

There used to whispers in game a very long time ago it would be cool to have them back when in cities almost like they are haunted but I highly doubt they'll be back.


Oh yeah the whispers at night were amazing. I miss those. The ambient sounds back then were truly haunting. Nowadays it sounds too peaceful.

 
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  • Crafting skill is increased by finding and reading magazines
This is from TFP
Sorry, but for me, crafting is not about "Skills", it's about recipes.

But now I understand why you would say that, they used the words "crafting skill" when it's just a crafting tier.

From your wording, I thought you were talking about the normal skill trees.

 
Sorry, but for me, crafting is not about "Skills", it's about recipes.

But now I understand why you would say that, they used the words "crafting skill" when it's just a crafting tier.

From your wording, I thought you were talking about the normal skill trees.


Just to be clear, it is not just a crafting tier

As you advance your crafting skill, you unlock the ability to craft higher quality level of the item (up to Q5 based on our last information).  Eventually you unlock higher tier items but at lower quality levels.  Then you continue progressing on the specific crafting skill and unlock higher quality levels for that higher tier item.

You probably already know that, but it seems people have misconceptions on what these changes are doing.

 
Idk, it feels like for every thing they improve they ruin another thing through streamlining / dumbing it down.


This feeling completely depends on a person's personal preferences. Every system you point at as having been ruined by the changes someone else will point at as having been enhanced. Each player has those aspects of the game that they appreciate depth and detail and "sim"-ness to it and those aspects that they appreciate being more streamlined and abstract and "arcade"-ish.

Like, wouldn't it be a much neater difficulty implementation to actually have to find a fuel canister to be able to pick up fuel from gas pumps?


Take this suggestion, for example. I already know that if you made having a fuel canister item that was required as a tool or container for collecting gas and it had to be found in loot, there would already be people around here thinking of alternate words to "neat".  The dew collector requires that you find one of the components and there is already worry about that.

I'm not saying your fuel canister or canteen idea are bad. I, personally, would totally be on board for detail like that. But I recognize that such changes aren't going to have universal appeal and if the developers, themselves, are wanting the game to swing more arcade in an area where I prefer it more sim (or vice versa) then I know that I'm going to have find a mod to get what I want.

 
What do you need to make steel pickaxe? worbench. what do you need to make workbench?  2 lvl of AE

Steel pickaxe is better that iron --> improve o mining
That's akin to saying perception improves all gun skills because demolitions expert allows cheaper gunpowder crafting.

There are a lot of ways to get a steel pickaxe that don't require a workbench, and a lot of ways to get a workbench that don't require INT, so this argument seems VERY stretched.

 
That's akin to saying perception improves all gun skills because demolitions expert allows cheaper gunpowder crafting.

There are a lot of ways to get a steel pickaxe that don't require a workbench, and a lot of ways to get a workbench that don't require INT, so this argument seems VERY stretched.
No. If TFP give arguments that's sexrex will be removed because influence using weapons - well sexrex influence using tools too like advance. Yes there is a lot of way - this same thing with using weapons - you can drink coffee and moonshine which are conneted with top chef

 
No. If TFP give arguments that's sexrex will be removed because influence using weapons - well sexrex influence using tools too like advance. Yes there is a lot of way - this same thing with using weapons - you can drink coffee and moonshine which are conneted with top chef
Sure, if coffee gave a 50% stamina regen boost and lasted all day then master chef would be as much of a problem as Sexual Tyrannosaurus is, but it doesn't so it isn't. 

 
No. If TFP give arguments that's sexrex will be removed because influence using weapons - well sexrex influence using tools too like advance. Yes there is a lot of way - this same thing with using weapons - you can drink coffee and moonshine which are conneted with top chef


Sex Rex is not being removed.  TFP is just incorporating the perk's bonuses into the other perks because their data showed that non-strength players were perking into it to get its benefits for tools and the other melee weapons.  The only difference was that non-strength players were paying a premium cost for that perk compared to the strength players.  It's an easy way to reduce the gulf between strength and non-strength players (in terms of stamina use at least) while addressing a suggestion that has been made many times in the past.

Stamina regeneration boosting items like coffee are temporary buffs while perking into Sex Rex (or in A21, any melee weapon perk) is a permanent buff.   Master Chef (in it's current iteration, will likely be changed for A21) only decreases cooking times, unlock recipes, and reduces ingredients for certain foods, it does not influence those items.  As Uncle Al has already stated, Sex Rex =/= Advanced Engineering =/= Master Chef.

 
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