They are bring a hybrid LBD!

I firmly believe that LBD will be of the form "learn crafting by using the item. I.e. by shooting zombies you will get better at crafting that gun. And by cooking you will get better at crafting a cooking pot.

The reason being that this is the only way to avoid spam crafting, useless crafting of items you will never use and also have a granular way to balance it.
If that's the case, how will you level something like pots or grills up? Will you just gain a lot of experience by just starting a bunch of food and leaving? We don't even get regular experience for that now if we aren't there with the interface open while things are being made (this includes all workstations). And should you get better by just tossing a bunch of stuff in and leaving? That sounds to me like it will be just as bad as spam crafting. At least it's just an alternative, so I can use a mod to increase magazine drops back to where they are now and not deal with it.
 
So upon watching IzPrebuilts video...I'm not excited. Crafting is the ONE thing I didnt think would be LBD. I wanted Sprinting, attacking, combat, medicine, etc. To be LBD. The features theyre adding are nice, but theyre NOT what I wanted. What I wanted was something to slow down the game a bit, make it so if I wanted to dedicate to mining resources, I wouldnt be forced to invest into STR for miner 69er. If anything this has taken the wind entirely out of my sail.
Don't want sprinting to be LBD. The others are fine. I agree we could use something to artificially slow progress. Currently I can get tiered up with the weapon of my choice pretty fast and it's not uncommon to be rocking steel very early.

I'll have to either watch the video or get more information as I don't see much of anything concrete.
 
If that's the case, how will you level something like pots or grills up? Will you just gain a lot of experience by just starting a bunch of food and leaving? We don't even get regular experience for that now if we aren't there with the interface open while things are being made (this includes all workstations). And should you get better by just tossing a bunch of stuff in and leaving? That sounds to me like it will be just as bad as spam crafting. At least it's just an alternative, so I can use a mod to increase magazine drops back to where they are now and not deal with it.

Yes, I would guess you will be able to craft better pots by simply cooking stuff. As you need to get ingredients for any cooking and all you get is a speedup of your cooking I don't think we need to fear exploits. Someone wasting hundreds of cooking hours with ingredients he needed to scavenge or farm first won't save any time because he will waste more time for increasing his crafting skill than he later saves with cooking stuff he needs.
 
MM probably already has this fleshed out, but here is a personal thought.

On the other side couldn't just the cooking skill increase as you cook, and have the buffs
or bonuses applied as it progresses. Then also have a proximity, of the campfire for the check.
Like LCB perimeter, or active chunk, or any other distance. Pots could then be reassigned to
crafting and they would only account for the speed of an attempt.

For the cooking having it initially burn food often, rendering the lowest quality of the food,
or un-useable food, and potentially lose resources, until the player gets better at cooking. So even
if it is spam crafted, a ton of resources would need to be gathered to progress. Which invites exploration
trader interactivity and purchase, or investing in a farm, which also invites exploration. At a specific level
certain recipes would no longer yield better quality. Until an entire tier is complete, then higher
tier unlocks could either be un-lockable, or have a low chance of success. Meat has to be hunted. If you want to
potentially throw a monkey wrench, adjust the qty of meat yielded from hunted game, and quantity of meat needed
for higher recipes. Or TFP can call on an old favorite, and separate the types of meat like before. I would
not have an aversion to rabbit on a stick myself. Or a picture of some drumsticks. A ton of recipes could be
added to validate extend and make cooking more detailed or preferential per player.

For drinks, like the simplest clean drinkable water, would have 3 potentials, clean water, returned stagnant
water or lose the water. That could then more detailed drinks, rendering a good drink, a low yield drink,
regular water, or Nada. Progression would render higher success as you progress through the game.
Spam crafting would give both more chances of success and more chances of failure until progression is at
a viable level. Leaving the other mechanics intact should it become overwhelming for a player, either temporarily
or permanently.

If grouped using the same progression already in place like for Tier 1 that you put cooking points into now. Top
recipe is coffee.

Lowering the cookbook spawn and applying just cooking exp points instead, the reading each cookbook
helps accelerate learning, but does not skip progression, individual recipe books can be added.
All they are in reality are icons, So if you find a JavaMammaForDumb■■■■s coffee book it could prematurely allow
you to "attempt" to make coffee. But with a lower chance of not screwing it up depending on how far you have already
progressed in that tier. It would give a purpose for all the coffee I find early on, or I could still wait until I
am at a level of understanding, then take the plunge.

So cookbook itself would be exp toward, progressing through cooking, and each specific recipes for Dumb■■■■s
Like JavaMammaForDumb■■■■s, would be to unlock the potential of success for that recipe, upon success you
get exp toward the whole. If RNG be good that play through, and you get a beef stew, and succeed then you get
a higher percentage of exp toward cooking. But only 1 success per book found. So no spam crafting a higher
tier recipe, to bypass the process. This invites exploration, or trader interaction, and progresses with game play.

The same premise could be used in any of the LBD hybid to make it all feel organic and cohesive through a play through.
The longer the game the more you get or discover. Short play would render the basic necessities, for that time period.
 
...Will they get a chance to explore the hybrid LBD/LBR system knocking around in so many heads, including theirs? Again: who knows? Only they know how much time and budget they have to spare on finishing up this game.
 
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Will they get a chance to explore the hybrid LBD/LBR system knocking around in so many heads, including theirs? Again: who knows? Only they know how much time and budget they have to spare on finishing up this game.

All games are being rushed nowadays, and the scope of some projects is too ambitious. Some devs take 8-10 years to polish one product under NDAs. 7DTD was initially less than 25 bucks. Only disgruntled players will find a way to complain after having squeezed over 1k hours.

I view the LBD system as Stats Padding most of the time. There is no system to detect if a player artificially boosts his stats. I won`t change my mind on that. Key bindings, macros, and pixel glitching are more than enough to keep others running in circles... I am not a big fan of that.
 
All games are being rushed nowadays, and the scope of some projects is too ambitious.
From what I gather from veteran devs, scope has always been too amibitious as evidenced by cut features and content in games that were published long before investment firms ever took an interest in pressuring them and trying to squeeze us of every penny in our possesion. Then, of course, someone had to put their foot down, else the team would be stuck in imagineering mode forever. I'm still amazed at what Obsidian managed in only 18 months with New Vegas. Sure, sure. They were largely working with existing assets, but they got it done. It released buggy as hell, but they got it done. And, of course, we thought "buggy, but adorable" back then whereas games are being released literally unfinished these days and that obviously won't be tolerated among the public.

Things have changed drastically between then and now.
 
You have to bear in mind that Obsidian has been working on this project with a highly skilled and experienced team.
Yeah, I know, which included some of the original Interplay devs. Still amazed. (And think they should have gotten that bonus. One point. One point off the Metacritic score. That was cold.)

Way off-topic, though.
 
It’s a compromise. It will diminish the footprint of magazine learning and allow for crafted item stats to go beyond the current stats that only reading magazines allowed.

More importantly, with native LBD code in the game, modders will more easily be able to broaden and apply it the systems you want touched.

The developers are committed to the Fallout style RPG model rather than a Skyrim model for this game. But they have heard the criticism about the learn by reading and are going to allow a learn by doing model to help augment the magazines for crafting progression.
Im fine with the new lbd system. I liked the old one better and I think the old system could work for QOL stuff not full massive buffs but im not a fan of the rpg system. At least in terms of weapons
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Yeah, I know, which included some of the original Interplay devs. Still amazed. (And think they should have gotten that bonus. One point. One point off the Metacritic score. That was cold.)

Way off-topic, though.
Thats the style of rpg I wouldnt mind 7dtd being. Like new vegas
 
Yes, I would guess you will be able to craft better pots by simply cooking stuff. As you need to get ingredients for any cooking and all you get is a speedup of your cooking I don't think we need to fear exploits. Someone wasting hundreds of cooking hours with ingredients he needed to scavenge or farm first won't save any time because he will waste more time for increasing his crafting skill than he later saves with cooking stuff he needs.
And that begs the question... is it even worth spending dev time on it if it has so little value?

Here's the thing... Do you think that the majority of people who have been begging for LBD to return wanted it for crafting? Or for their actions? I am going to bet that most wanted it for actions. If it was also added for crafting, they wouldn't mind (probably). But if it's one or the other, they would absolutely want it for actions and not for crafting. So by saying they are adding LBD back and then saying that it's only for crafting, you're just going to upset the LBD people even more than if they didn't bring back LBD. On the other side of the coin, most people who don't want LBD aren't likely to be happy with any form of LBD being added back to the game. Some will be fine with it if it's not too far off from what they prefer, but many others will not like it at all. So adding LBD back will also upset a lot of those players. Now, of course there are people who don't care either way. But they wouldn't care if LBD wasn't added back either. So the end result of this is that they will upset those who want LBD and those who don't want LBD and almost the only people who don't care wouldn't have cared if it wasn't added back.

So you have to ask whether this is a smart choice by TFP. Regardless what you think of LBD or if you think you can accept how they are going to implement it, do you think that my assessment is incorrect? Do you think people who want LBD are going to be happy with it being only for crafting or that they are likely to be more upset having it only for crafting than if it wasn't brought back at all? Do you think people who don't want it will be happy about it being brought back for crafting? What do you think is the net gain/loss in approval among players with adding LBD to crafting only? Do you think more will approve of the change or disapprove of it compared to if LBD wasn't brought back at all and wasn't ever suggested by TFP that it would be brought back?

Although I don't want LBD and this method they plan to add should be very easy for me to ignore so I'm not too horribly upset about it, I think that if they were going to bring LBD back, they would have been better off adding it to actions so that even if they upset one group of people (those who don't like LBD), they'd at least get approval from the other group of people (those who like LBD). As it is now, they're basically going to upset both sides. You're already seeing people from both sides complaining about it.

As I said a while back, TFP has been making some rather questionable design decisions lately, thinking what they are doing is great only to have a lot of people point out how bad it was, forcing them to have to waste a lot of time fixing it. Did they get a new head game designer? I don't want to say anything bad about someone I don't know, but it has really changed lately and I don't know why that is. It's one thing if they just make a decision that people don't like, but to think it's a great decision that everyone will love and most seem to hate it... that isn't a good path to be on.
 
It’s a compromise. It will diminish the footprint of magazine learning and allow for crafted item stats to go beyond the current stats that only reading magazines allowed.

More importantly, with native LBD code in the game, modders will more easily be able to broaden and apply it the systems you want touched.

The developers are committed to the Fallout style RPG model rather than a Skyrim model for this game. But they have heard the criticism about the learn by reading and are going to allow a learn by doing model to help augment the magazines for crafting progression.
Being quite honest? I was fine with magazines staying in. What interested me the most about LBD is the skill for actions. Crafting is a nice touch but never what fully attracted me to the game.
If the goal is to LBD a character into Perks, then it sounds to me like you want to replace the entire XP/Perk system. Do I understand correctly?

If so, how would you improve your PER, STR, AGL, STA, INT, or are those all removed?

Also, I wonder if there might be perks that don't map to a repetitive action. Towards that end, I wonder if it would in some way satisfy (even partially) you if there were Challenges (Y key) related to repetitive activities? If so, you would earn XP that could be used to buy STR and Miner 69. I'm assuming that is too abstract, but I thought it was worth asking. Would it be different if a Challenge gave you a Perk?

I'm not advocating for/against anything here; just trying to feel out your opinions.
XP could stay the same, but go towards the action you're doing to reward XP. If I'm being really honest what I hate the most is the attributes. Pummel Pete and other skills have been around since A15 and Legacy Console edition. Difference is, they used to be attached to Blunt Weapon skill level vs the Strength Attribute. I want that back. I remember when running more levelled up your Sprint so you had more stamina. Lockpicking skill once again was related to lockpicking.

If I'd accept having just combat skills be LBD and pummel pete, skull crusher, etc. Being dedicated to their weapon skill level. Though generally screw attributes. Locking perks behind attributes has been the single worst decision I feel.
 
I view the LBD system as Stats Padding most of the time. There is no system to detect if a player artificially boosts his stats. I won`t change my mind on that. Key bindings, macros, and pixel glitching are more than enough to keep others running in circles... I am not a big fan of that.
From what I've read I don't think you can. Running is a perk not a LBD skill as are many other things.

I think LBD is fine when balanced properly. For example when it consumes a non-free resource such as shooting zombies, cooking, etc.

It gets silly when you don't need hit markers to level up skills. I remember macros being a thing for Darkfall where you would spam spells into the sky. So I agree there.

I think with proper balancing and diminishing returns one can balance LBD.
 
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Don't want sprinting to be LBD. The others are fine. I agree we could use something to artificially slow progress. Currently I can get tiered up with the weapon of my choice pretty fast and it's not uncommon to be rocking steel very early.

I'll have to either watch the video or get more information as I don't see much of anything concrete.
Why? Sprinting is the easiest thing to level up. You sprint to the storage room. You sprint to the quests. To the kitchen. Down the stairs. Up to the horde base.
 
XP could stay the same, but go towards the action you're doing to reward XP. If I'm being really honest what I hate the most is the attributes. Pummel Pete and other skills have been around since A15 and Legacy Console edition. Difference is, they used to be attached to Blunt Weapon skill level vs the Strength Attribute. I want that back. I remember when running more levelled up your Sprint so you had more stamina. Lockpicking skill once again was related to lockpicking.

What I hear you saying is either:

(1) Perks are earned by achieving milestones in an LBD system. Killing zombies with a club essentially earns you the Club-related perks as you use the club, or...

(2) Perks are unlocked by achieving milestones and you earn XP too, which you would then use to buy Perks you have unlocked.

... and in both cases, nothing is tied to an attribute.

Why? Sprinting is the easiest thing to level up. You sprint to the storage room. You sprint to the quests. To the kitchen. Down the stairs. Up to the horde base.

Personally, I have trouble with Sprinting as LBD too. It's uncompelling game play and when improved like that (running to the kitchen, down the stairs) it isn't very realistic. Better would be not counting how much time you spend running, but instead counting the number of times you put a meaningful dent in your Stamina bar.

Lock picking, on the other hand, I have some appreciation for LBD. To get good a lock picking you need lots and lots of practice. But to get started with lock picking you need instruction. You also need the right tools, which the game doesn't really get into with its generic lock picks.

Overall, it helps to know what you've related above. I can keep trying to think of a hybrid solution. At present, the best I can think of is that both systems contribute to a common value. That is, Stamina capacity and cost minimization is ultimately a mix of an attribute, perks, and LBD. I'm just not sure that is a system anyone will like.
 
And that begs the question... is it even worth spending dev time on it if it has so little value?

So little value to me or you. But maybe not to someone who wants that dopamine kick.

Here's the thing... Do you think that the majority of people who have been begging for LBD to return wanted it for crafting? Or for their actions? I am going to bet that most wanted it for actions. If it was also added for crafting, they wouldn't mind (probably). But if it's one or the other, they would absolutely want it for actions and not for crafting. So by saying they are adding LBD back and then saying that it's only for crafting, you're just going to upset the LBD people even more than if they didn't bring back LBD. On the other side of the coin, most people who don't want LBD aren't likely to be happy with any form of LBD being added back to the game. Some will be fine with it if it's not too far off from what they prefer, but many others will not like it at all. So adding LBD back will also upset a lot of those players. Now, of course there are people who don't care either way. But they wouldn't care if LBD wasn't added back either. So the end result of this is that they will upset those who want LBD and those who don't want LBD and almost the only people who don't care wouldn't have cared if it wasn't added back.

It is a compromise. I would guess that a lot of people like the perks now and would react similar if they were removed. Also it is the magazine system that seems to garner the most critique and would be the first choice for some adjustment.

There will be all sorts of reactions and I can't even guess how many will be in which "reaction group". I am assuming one important itch is scratched when actions you do lead to improvement, i.e. whenever you shoot a zombie, not only do you get XP but also there is a chance it makes DING and you get told that something got better.
Is it that important that it won't be your damage but your crafting skill that got a small upgrade? There will be players who say it isn't enough and there will be players who will play and like that system. I can not guess how big both groups are, neither can the players in those groups really. But obviously we will hear mostly from the former group and surely all their friends will be in the same group ;)

So you have to ask whether this is a smart choice by TFP. Regardless what you think of LBD or if you think you can accept how they are going to implement it, do you think that my assessment is incorrect? Do you think people who want LBD are going to be happy with it being only for crafting or that they are likely to be more upset having it only for crafting than if it wasn't brought back at all? Do you think people who don't want it will be happy about it being brought back for crafting? What do you think is the net gain/loss in approval among players with adding LBD to crafting only? Do you think more will approve of the change or disapprove of it compared to if LBD wasn't brought back at all and wasn't ever suggested by TFP that it would be brought back?

I don't feel I have enough information to answer any of those question with any accuracy, and anyway it is too late to ask things like "Was it a mistake". I can tell you only that I don't think it will diminish my fun of the game since perks will not be touched and that is the important bit for me personally.

Although I don't want LBD and this method they plan to add should be very easy for me to ignore so I'm not too horribly upset about it, I think that if they were going to bring LBD back, they would have been better off adding it to actions so that even if they upset one group of people (those who don't like LBD), they'd at least get approval from the other group of people (those who like LBD). As it is now, they're basically going to upset both sides. You're already seeing people from both sides complaining about it.

They bring back LBD to actions if my assumption is correct. Just not fully. We always see the complainers but almost never the ones who are fine with it, except for posters like us who comment on almost everything ;)

As I said a while back, TFP has been making some rather questionable design decisions lately, thinking what they are doing is great only to have a lot of people point out how bad it was, forcing them to have to waste a lot of time fixing it. Did they get a new head game designer? I don't want to say anything bad about someone I don't know, but it has really changed lately and I don't know why that is. It's one thing if they just make a decision that people don't like, but to think it's a great decision that everyone will love and most seem to hate it... that isn't a good path to be on.

I don't see any new head game designer. I see Madmole, who has been (as far as we know) designing a new game, returning for an intermezzo to this game after a ■■■■storm steam voting resulted in endangering his company that still depends 100% on 7d2d's revenue. And he is trying to placate those ■■■■stormers while still keeping the game how he wants it aka his vision. By adding some systems on top and/or making some of it tuneable with options. Not the worst approach. Though naturally also showing to everyone who wants this or that old system back that now is the time to make a stink.
 
Yeah and it seems mostly pointless if it doesn't up damage, attack speed, reload speed, etc like it should be doing, what the hell is the point to having it for crafting skills? Thats back to a15 stupidity in a way where u had to craft 10 thousand stone axe's to get good at making tools. I get it raises as you swing but I don't see the point to it, if it doesn't improve the damage, atk speed, reload etc of the weapon or tool. The worse mistake tfp made was locking the weapons to stats in the way they did it. 5 stats should be reduced to 3: Combat, Survival, Defense. All weapons would be under combat, survival would be mining/salvage tools, defense would be armor and perks like parkour etc just as a basic example.

Now if it does improve the damage/attack speed/reload speed(for guns and archery) and lowers stam use (for melee/tools) then i'll take back what I said, but from what i've heard so far, I just don't see much of a point to this system. Using magazines is going to be much faster than just grinding it out.

I'd like to see something actually NEW get added to the game that is not a rehash of a old system the game used to have. As there hasn't really been anything new in years. The LBD thing could be good if it improves damage etc as well as craft unlocks, but if it doesn't whats the real point? The LBD they are planning is basically alpha 15, just instead of repeatly crafting the item you repeatedly hit things. I'll have to hold my actual opinion on it till I try it, but from what I heard so far I don't even see the point.

That said I am glad the game is modable, as thats the only way I can usually stand to play it lately, as vanilla is so bland and boring and hasn't really gone anywhere in over 8 years. If you played back since a15/16 you prob feel the same way I do, most players from back then do,
 
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