Let's discuss Learn By Doing for hopefully the last time.

[Charger265]

I'm not doubting there is significant unrest, but I'd love to see the numbers if you've got them. Or, are you using "majority" casually?

TFP's should really do their own review.
But just for the fun of it i pushed the question to AI with the same data set statics from steam for post 1.0 update time line
Here is the thread where i talk about it: https://community.thefunpimps.com/threads/time-to-reflect.44416/post-607953
Your free to make your own judgment.

Response:
Negative reviews often come from players with high playtime (500-2,000+ hours), indicating core community members. For example, Steam posts mention players with “thousands of hours” criticizing the magazine-based progression, nerfed survival mechanics, and shift to a “dumbed-down RPG” style. Players (with high hours) contribute significantly, roughly 60% of core reviewers express unhappiness.
The “General Discussions” and “Support & Bug Reports” sections (68,387 and 36,093 topics, respectively) show frequent complaints about V2.0’s balance and bugs. Often citing extensive playtime, dominate these threads. Estimating from thread sentiment, 55-65% of posters seem unhappy.

 

[Ronnycage]

Been playing for nearly a decade and I feel I enjoyed the learning by doing. I don't mind books and magazines. I've never been a fan of both. I feel it's too confusing. I've recently has 2 newer players join me and they even agreed, there is too much going on between books and magazines and it doesn't feel like something you'd really get in a normal survival game. I do like the challenges we get as far as kill certain zombies, crafting ones and even the biome challenges. I feel killing x amount of specific zombies and unlocking stronger damage etc. Would yield more fun than reading a magazine. We've had so many re-vamps of the leveling, books, magazines, quests etc. It's like a completely different game at this point.

 

[Soulmonster]

However statically the majority are unhappy with the game direction.

We don't know that. We only know what the majority of those that express themselves on Reddit, Steam, and here, feel. And that's a subset of the entire population of gamers playing 7DTD. There could be a huge silent majority that is happy with things (hence why they don't speak out). Just like at this forum, the majority who complain about new features are old timers who miss old features.

 

[Charger265]

We don't know that. We only know what the majority of those that express themselves on Reddit, Steam, and here, feel. And that's a subset of the entire population of gamers playing 7DTD. There could be a huge silent majority that is happy with things (hence why they don't speak out). Just like at this forum, the majority who complain about new features are old timers who miss old features.

Well at this point the argument you have presented is. You dont know that. Which is only to the extent of your knowledge.
Its clear the fun pimps now know because it required a town hall meeting and they are actively looking to implement changes to reflect the wider community.

 

[Soulmonster]

Well at this point the argument you have presented is. You dont know that. Which is only to the extent of your knowledge.
Its clear the fun pimps now know because it required a town hall meeting and they are actively looking to implement changes to reflect the wider community.

My argument is more, you don't know that, because it was you who made a claim that is just speculation. I admit having no idea what the majority of gamers think about the recent changes. I can only speak for myself, and I am fine with the direction of the game. But to bring this back to topic, I am also fine with adjustments to the skill system, including a hybrid between what we have today and learn-by-doing, although I am not sure it is possible to come up with an elegant system that will be better than what we have today.

 

[Charger265]

My argument is more, you don't know that, because it was you who made a claim that is just speculation. I admit having no idea what the majority of gamers think about the recent changes. I can only speak for myself, and I am fine with the direction of the game. But to bring this back to topic, I am also fine with adjustments to the skill system, including a hybrid between what we have today and learn-by-doing, although I am not sure it is possible to come up with an elegant system that will be better than what we have today.

So your assumption without knowledge brings you to that conclusion?
It sounds like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing at this point..

But i am glad we have been able to find some common ground as we want the game to succeed and be enjoyable for the majority of players.

 

[HammerDano]

We don't know that. We only know what the majority of those that express themselves on Reddit, Steam, and here, feel. And that's a subset of the entire population of gamers playing 7DTD. There could be a huge silent majority that is happy with things (hence why they don't speak out). Just like at this forum, the majority who complain about new features are old timers who miss old features.

friend...I agree with you, it has been well established that the majority ARE silent. So "we" have to look to the vocal minority, because it is public sentiment that often drives sales. So the vocal minority are/were often the early adopters. The number of people that went out and changed their reviews...blew my mind. Even I have not done anything like THAT. but I'm older and that behavior is the new "META".
I think you are also right about the "old timers" they want the game they had...but with the new POI's...with the new graphics, vehicles, and zombies. they want Alpha 16 "souped up" edition.

I personally don't like standing around watching the game get made, getting used to a progression or mechanic and ooooops...it's gone...they decided to completely overhaul it instead of tweeking/massaging it. I felt that way when I was watching from the outside and even more strongly against it since I got lied to, to get me to buy back in.

After all these years there's a lot of people mad because these guys can't pick a direction, won't refine systems...just turf them...and blame the fan base for negative feedback.

 

[Sapient6]

So you want a system that is immersive and engaging but you chose a system which removes all of that and puts into a system you have no control over. Just to ignore the system entirely. Im clearly missing something.
My other most played game is factorio so i also enjoy complex systems but at the same time i also understand the game needs to be accessible to people who dont want it that complex.

Only that "immersive and engaging" does not, for me, describe magazines or LBD. I dislike both. So if I must choose between the two then I'm going to base that preference on which one annoys me less.

 

[zztong]

But just for the fun of it i pushed the question to AI with the same data set statics from steam for post 1.0 update time line
Here is the thread where i talk about it: https://community.thefunpimps.com/threads/time-to-reflect.44416/post-607953
Your free to make your own judgment.

Thanks for sharing your methods. It seems like they would lead to a kind of AI opinion based on whatever is available to be read. Then there was some -- I guess I'll say -- AI crowdsourcing, which is interesting. It's not useless but its not standing on solid ground for making generalizations about the entire player base either. Are the detailed results available anywhere? From an interest in AI, I'm kind of curious what they gave you.

 

[zztong]

So your assumption without knowledge brings you to that conclusion?

I can't speak for everyone, but I think it is important to know if I'm reading evidence-backed fact or an opinion. If your sample comes from forums, then any results can face criticism about not being representative of the whole. If your sample is entirely based on what you've read, then you can face additional criticism about possibly having some selection bias. That's what I read in the opposition to your statements -- criticism that your methods don't support a sweeping conclusion about the player base as a whole.

That said, an opinion is still worth something. By all means express it. And, if there is solid evidence, I appreciate when it is shared, else all I can do is consider your opinion and reflect on if it matches my own.

Also, I think TFP's recent moves demonstrate that even the weight of many opinions, without documented numbers, or perhaps just the Steam Review numbers, they saw something persuasive.

 

[Kyoji]

The real question isn't whether you like LBD or magazines, but rather would you prefer them to take development time and change it back again?

Is LBD more important, for you, over?:

• Temperature
• Bandits
• Random game events
• Legendary weapons
• Weapon/Armor parts quality

For me it's not. Temperature adds survival. Bandits are a core feature we have been waiting on for a long time. Random game events using Flatspot would increase game randomness and potentially encourage players to go off the beaten path. Legendary weapons and/or parts quality would give end-game use and a reason to visit T5 POIs.

LBD + Perk system would be nice, but I don't think I would take that over any of the aforementioned items as for me they add more value to the game compared to how I level up which I don't think they would get right the first or even second time if they re-did it.

 

[Soulmonster]

So your assumption without knowledge brings you to that conclusion?
It sounds like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing at this point..

But i am glad we have been able to find some common ground as we want the game to succeed and be enjoyable for the majority of players.

My conclusion is only that you can't say anything about what the majority of gamers think. And that's not a trivial point when so many players are trying to influence TFP to make changes to the game using the argument "the majority wants change".

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 10:42 AM

friend...I agree with you, it has been well established that the majority ARE silent. So "we" have to look to the vocal minority, because it is public sentiment that often drives sales. So the vocal minority are/were often the early adopters. The number of people that went out and changed their reviews...blew my mind. Even I have not done anything like THAT. but I'm older and that behavior is the new "META".
I think you are also right about the "old timers" they want the game they had...but with the new POI's...with the new graphics, vehicles, and zombies. they want Alpha 16 "souped up" edition.

I personally don't like standing around watching the game get made, getting used to a progression or mechanic and ooooops...it's gone...they decided to completely overhaul it instead of tweeking/massaging it. I felt that way when I was watching from the outside and even more strongly against it since I got lied to, to get me to buy back in.

After all these years there's a lot of people mad because these guys can't pick a direction, won't refine systems...just turf them...and blame the fan base for negative feedback.

I agree with a lot of this.

I am not going to say what TFP should do. It is their game to do whatever they want with. If I were them and wanted to create a game that would sell the most, I would probably generate some statistics on what the majority thinks about the changes - and certainly not listen to a subset of gamers. I hope, though, that they still develop from a vision and are more concerned about realizing that vision than chasing sales. I don't know. So far I personally appreciate the game they have developed and the changes that will come now before 3.0

 

[Rotor]

The real question isn't whether you like LBD or magazines, but rather would you prefer them to take development time and change it back again?

Is LBD more important, for you, over?:

• Temperature
• Bandits
• Random game events
• Legendary weapons
• Weapon/Armor parts quality

For me it's not. Temperature adds survival. Bandits are a core feature we have been waiting on for a long time. Random game events using Flatspot would increase game randomness and potentially encourage players to go off the beaten path. Legendary weapons and/or parts quality would give end-game use and a reason to visit T5 POIs.

LBD + Perk system would be nice, but I don't think I would take that over any of the aforementioned items as for me they add more value to the game compared to how I level up which I don't think they would get right the first or even second time if they re-did it.

On a general note, not really tied to LBD, only one of the list bove matters to me......as survivalist type player, and that is temperature.

Dont care about bandits the same way I dont care for traders. Legendary weapons to me is a game mechanic best left for the Fantasy/SciFi genre. I guess a Z based game would possible qualify for fantasy, but an M60 should just be an M60.

I guess weapon/armor parts quality would be a not so near 2nd, so okay, maybe two items on the list. However that quality should degrade. Something for after release.

Random events, if it means more roaming zombies, I would like. Immediately, but if other, then it is a distant third that I would not spend any time on it. Maybe after release.

 

[Kalen]

The real question isn't whether you like LBD or magazines, but rather would you prefer them to take development time and change it back again?

Is LBD more important, for you, over?:

• Temperature
• Bandits
• Random game events
• Legendary weapons
• Weapon/Armor parts quality

For me it's not. Temperature adds survival. Bandits are a core feature we have been waiting on for a long time. Random game events using Flatspot would increase game randomness and potentially encourage players to go off the beaten path. Legendary weapons and/or parts quality would give end-game use and a reason to visit T5 POIs.

LBD + Perk system would be nice, but I don't think I would take that over any of the aforementioned items as for me they add more value to the game compared to how I level up which I don't think they would get right the first or even second time if they re-did it.

This is the correct way, IMO, for people to evaluate it. Personally, yes.... If I could chose TFP's prioritization, I would put LBD over all of that.

 

[HammerDano]

My conclusion is only that you can't say anything about what the majority of gamers think. And that's not a trivial point when so many players are trying to influence TFP to make changes to the game using the argument "the majority wants change".

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 10:42 AM

I agree with a lot of this.

I am not going to say what TFP should do. It is their game to do whatever they want with. If I were them and wanted to create a game that would sell the most, I would probably generate some statistics on what the majority thinks about the changes - and certainly not listen to a subset of gamers. I hope, though, that they still develop from a vision and are more concerned about realizing that vision than chasing sales. I don't know. So far I personally appreciate the game they have developed and the changes that will come now before 3.0

I like the model where I buy a finished game and I like it or I don't. (I will stick to it in the future)

I settled for a model where a 13 year old game finally put out a reasonable roadmap with reasonable dates, and I fell it, I fell for the idea that meant they were finalizing the game...not still imagineering.

I get that THAT is what the PC base is used to...a slow development timeline...and a lot of backtracking by the devs.

but...somewhere along that timeline...you guys DID start feeling like it is your game too...that the devs should listen to you.
that's one of the problems with EA...the devs ARE counting on you to fund them and they do make accomodations and before long it starts feeling like they are slowly building a game by opinion, poll, and resentment....while pretending they owe you nothing...you signed on for it.

I only bought back in because of the timeline with the roadmap...that's it. I had no interest in participating in the same BS they put you guys through.

So now I just want them to hire a PROFESSIONAL community manager...the road map is broken and time allotted almost used up...2.0 needs fixing...are 3.0 and 4.0 going to be the same? a year to a year and a half PER update?

 

[HammerDano]

This is the correct way, IMO, for people to evaluate it. Personally, yes.... If I could chose TFP's prioritization, I would put LBD over all of that.

(as someone pointed out, there are analytic tools...they should employ them...there's no need to guess)

I really don't want another progression rework before 3.0 and 4.0 (that's just my opinion)
if there is going to be one...I can only hope that it doesn't add another year or two. before they can finally get back to promising Bandits and never delivering.
broken record time...they need to communicate...or just release finished games. (imo)

 

[Jeraal]

The real question isn't whether you like LBD or magazines, but rather would you prefer them to take development time and change it back again?

Is LBD more important, for you, over?:

• Temperature
• Bandits
• Random game events
• Legendary weapons
• Weapon/Armor parts quality

For me it's not. Temperature adds survival. Bandits are a core feature we have been waiting on for a long time. Random game events using Flatspot would increase game randomness and potentially encourage players to go off the beaten path. Legendary weapons and/or parts quality would give end-game use and a reason to visit T5 POIs.

LBD + Perk system would be nice, but I don't think I would take that over any of the aforementioned items as for me they add more value to the game compared to how I level up which I don't think they would get right the first or even second time if they re-did it.

I would absolutely put it above bandits(not at all interested) and legendary items. I would put it alongside W/A parts quality(also want degradation for all equipment) and temperature. Need more info to know where to put random events.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

(as someone pointed out, there are analytic tools...they should employ them...there's no need to guess)

I really don't want another progression rework before 3.0 and 4.0 (that's just my opinion)
if there is going to be one...I can only hope that it doesn't add another year or two. before they can finally get back to promising Bandits and never delivering.
broken record time...they need to communicate...or just release finished games. (imo)

Personally I want them to do it sooner rather than later if they decide to incorporate some LBD cause it will influence any other design decisions going forward. I just want the thing finalized, no more redoing stuff. If it were up to me I would do it on 3.0 at the latest, but really I think it should come sooner than that. Maybe on the last version of 2.x

 

[HammerDano]

Personally I want them to do it sooner rather than later if they decide to incorporate some LBD cause it will influence any other design decisions going forward. I just want the thing finalized, no more redoing stuff. If it were up to me I would do it on 3.0 at the latest, but really I think it should come sooner than that. Maybe on the last version of 2.x

yup, you are right
it doesn't change how I feel, but, I do get what you are saying and it makes sense. I guess that invokes the "i can only hope it doesn't add another year or two", part of my post.

 

[zztong]

but...somewhere along that timeline...you guys DID start feeling like it is your game too...that the devs should listen to you.

I don't know about everyone, but for me that's half right. Once I got into modding I felt I had a stake in the game in that I was taking a more active role in my own entertainment. However, I never felt the Devs should listen to me. It's more like I hope the Devs will consider what I say.

It's possible once I started modding and felt like I had that stake that I became more bias towards the Devs. It would be true that getting into that area led to a tiny bit more contact as well as a more detailed perspective of how the game works. That contact, however, is not in the form of giving input on direction. It has been more transactional, such as doing X generates this exception.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 1:05 PM

(as someone pointed out, there are analytic tools...they should employ them...there's no need to guess)

I'd love to know that list. My fear is the only available source of data is reviews and forums.