Let's discuss Learn By Doing for hopefully the last time.

The removal of gateways is huge and a good step in the right direction, imo, but they are in the home stretch and personal preferences have no bearing on that. 2.0 could definitely have used more time in the oven before it was released, imo, and when it comes to biome and storm effects/offsets, what they've said they plan to do for 2.0 is no less superficial in my sight, but if that's what they're going to do, then that's what they're going to do. Sounds like temperature effects/offset reimplementation, armor dyes, etc. were in the works anyway.

It would take quite some time to possibly implement well-balanced, hybrid survival and progression systems atop all that for the good of the game, if not to cater to anyone in particular. So, I'd expect any reworking, slight or otherwise, of core systems to take a back seat to 3.0 and 4.0.
 
zztong said:
I can't speak for everyone, but I think it is important to know if I'm reading evidence-backed fact or an opinion. If your sample comes from forums, then any results can face criticism about not being representative of the whole. If your sample is entirely based on what you've read, then you can face additional criticism about possibly having some selection bias. That's what I read in the opposition to your statements -- criticism that your methods don't support a sweeping conclusion about the player base as a whole.

That said, an opinion is still worth something. By all means express it. And, if there is solid evidence, I appreciate when it is shared, else all I can do is consider your opinion and reflect on if it matches my own.

Also, I think TFP's recent moves demonstrate that even the weight of many opinions, without documented numbers, or perhaps just the Steam Review numbers, they saw something persuasive.
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Thats a very fair statement and very valid point. Its clear you can understand the difficult aspect of trying to gather data and make any form of reasonable conclusion from it. The best i can do is use the tools i have available and knowledge to apply an "arbitrary" set of rules to the available data reasonably and objectively to draw a conclusion vs i just feel this way. Statically we can can centrally agree that no data set is perfect and no statics are ever 100% correct. The same arguments can be used to the opposing views with far more uncertainty due to the limited scope. Statically it would be classed as a polarizing outcome. Really if your just looking on this forum and posts for and against (a game direction change in some form) its split about 50/50. Granted this is an extremely small data set as the engagement is extremely low compared to other platforms and heavenly favored to an echo chamber environment being the official forums. Most people who play dont even know this forum exists.

The one thing i find when it comes to human emotion is that there is a big disconnect with objective reality. Which unfortunately allows one to easily dismiss any opposing view or even consider that there may be an issue at all. There is a lot of this going on here.

I guess the one thing we would be both happy to agree on would be: The 7DTD community as a whole is very much divided and rifts like this can and likely will end badly for the game as a whole.
Lets hope that some resolution can be worked out.
 
Sapient6 said:
Only that "immersive and engaging" does not, for me, describe magazines or LBD. I dislike both. So if I must choose between the two then I'm going to base that preference on which one annoys me less.
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So we have some form of agreeance... You dislike aspects of the game. This is confirming the argument of my analysis that the majority of players are unhappy in some form of the games direction and delivery.
Does not mean you dont like the game and centrally wont stop playing or supporting it. But in your own words "I dislike both"
 
Soulmonster said:
My conclusion is only that you can't say anything about what the majority of gamers think. And that's not a trivial point when so many players are trying to influence TFP to make changes to the game using the argument "the majority wants change".
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Valid argument. Can you explain to me how you come to the conclusion that its not the majority of players. I did my best to explain the methods i used.
But just out of curiosity have you ever seen the community have so much backlash against TFP's?
Would be fair to make judgment that there is definitely an underlying issue that has caused the backlash?
And should it be addressed or dismissed in the better interest of the game moving forward?
 
Xacsis said:
I never understood why people want a chore based progression system. *Let me check what the chore list tells me I need to play today*
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Exactly! Why everyone is forced into one specific play style to progress. Why not make it more organic, so that every player can play how they want and everyone is progressing in field they are enjoying?!
 
Soulmonster said:
Just like at this forum, the majority who complain about new features are old timers who miss old features.
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So what? It is those old timers who actually founded this company, made it into existence for the sole purpose of deliver those features. Kickstarter promises (sandbox, crafting, RPG, tower defence) are more important than anything else, even if newer players would be majority.
 
Charger265 said:
Valid argument. Can you explain to me how you come to the conclusion that its not the majority of players.
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I haven't come to that conclusion. I am saying that we can't know if the opinions of a subset of players are representative of the majority until it has been shown to be representative, and you haven't shown that it is representative. So currently all I know is that there are a small subset (relatively speaking) who are vocal with complaints and for all I know, the vast majority could still be happy. Maybe you are right and the vocal complainers are just the tip of the iceberg, or maybe people who are disappointed are more likely to voice their discontent. I don't know, I simply say that you don't know either and hence any appeal to TFP to make changes because "the majority is unhappy" is a flawed argument.
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Archael said:
So what?
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So that means there is a chance that those who complaint aren't representative of the majority.
 
Soulmonster said:
I haven't come to that conclusion. I am saying that we can't know if the opinions of a subset of players are representative of the majority until it has been shown to be representative, and you haven't shown that it is representative.
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I have with the data that is available. You have just chosen to dismiss it. There is a clear distinction there.
 
Soulmonster said:
But isn't the available data based on comments from social media, forum, Reddit, and the like, whatever AI can find, hence representing a subset of players, those who express themselves, and you haven't shown that this subset represents the majority?
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Thats exactly my point. You can only go off the available data and its clear what the available data says. Including positive reviews looking at the body of the review, not just the polar positive vs negative stand point.
Your point is based off no data and is only "But what if" because i dont want to believe there is an issue.

Lets see if i can at least get an assumption / guess from you. What is the percentage you believe dont post about 7dtd in some form on any forum/ social media / mods section?
Take me as an example mostly i have been happy with the game. Yes i have had my gripes and dislike with the game direction and choices. But have only posted 3-4 times negatively about the game over the last decade showing a dislike about some aspect. Yup i dont even complain about the book system in 1.0 at the time. What percentage of players have that stand point and just dont post about it? How many just stopped playing? You will never know so you can only work from actual represented feedback to make judgment.

If you think you are so sure... start a poll yourself (in a location with more than 50-100 active members) asking if the payers are happy with the game direction or TFP's need to listen to the community and change. Really if you just scroll through a few other forums you will find something that will help you make some judgment. Polls are great because the "un spoken majority you speak of" only have to click a multi choice option.
If you can provide me tangible evidence that your stance on the subject carrys weight and is factually correct i will eat humble pie.

Why make it your mission to argue a point to which you have done little to no research on. Yeah i get you are passionate about it. But there comes a point when you have to stop beating that dead horse.
 
Soulmonster said:
So that means there is a chance that those who complaint aren't representative of the majority.
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My post, where you got this quote from, said specifically that it doesn't matter what majority sais. What matter is what Kickstarter promised. Specific game was promised to get money, and either promised game will be delivered or it was just a scam. It doesn't matter if majority are those who prefer looter shooter dungeon crawler. If devs will develop anything else than survival base building rpg in sandbox environment, they admit it was a scam.
 
Soulmonster said:
It is not a straw man, it is my whole and consistent point: You fail to demonstrate that the subset of gamers that comprise your data represent the majority.
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While at the same time you have failed to demonstrate that the subset does not represent the majority.
Trying to use a straw man fallacy to create a Schrödinger's cat paradox
Simple minds get caught on simple problems
 
Jeraal said:
I would absolutely put it above bandits(not at all interested) and legendary items. I would put it alongside W/A parts quality(also want degradation for all equipment) and temperature. Need more info to know where to put random events.
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Fair enough. I think it's important to rate where you put priority on things as everything takes development time.

Random events relates to their discussions on flatspot code possibilities in the town hall. They stated it helps locate flat spots on the ground to dynamically spawn in things. This could be used to spawn in a downed helicopter or spawn a herd of deer or other random events that break up your typical game.
Charger265 said:
But just out of curiosity have you ever seen the community have so much backlash against TFP's?
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Not quite to this level but I remember traders being a hot topic as through their development cycle they became too important.
Soulmonster said:
But isn't the available data based on comments from social media, forum, Reddit, and the like, whatever AI can find, hence representing a subset of players, those who express themselves, and you haven't shown that this subset represents the majority?
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theFlu said:
The person making the claim needs to provide the evidence. If the evidence is faulty, the claim will be dismissed.
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People who don't have opinion well...dont have an opinion obviously. There wouldn't be a way to evaluate everyone's opinion.

Even people who aren't posting doesn't mean silent acceptance as it could be laziness, apathy, or other factors to include them enjoying the game. It's just very hard if not impossible to tell.

TFP can only go on things that are tangible such as things that might effect sales like steam reviews, poor YouTube reviews, etc that might turn people off when looking into a game.
 
Charger265 said:
You can only go off the available data and its clear what the available data says
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But what if the available data isn't complete enough to draw any conclusions? How would you determine if that's the case? How would you rule that out?

How would you rule out that the majority is actually happy with the game, and they simply don't visit reddit, or Youtube, or wherever else people have been most vocal about their opinions with the game currently?
 
Kyoji said:
People who don't have opinion well...dont have an opinion obviously. There wouldn't be a way to evaluate everyone's opinion.
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Me personally, I don't even care. People hate chess. Should it be changed? No. It's an awesome game Some people don't like. Whether a person has bought a chess set or not, doesn't make their opinion of it useful. Same applies here, "the player base as a whole" doesn't really matter. Just a good game.

For TFP; just make a Good Game, based on your own standards. Aim for good, not "no whiners". If you think lakes without H2O is good, then make it so. If you never want to see another LBD in your lifetime, there's no need to implement one. Just make sure the game is good - for whatever you're aiming for...
 
theFlu said:
Me personally, I don't even care. People hate chess. Should it be changed? No. It's an awesome game Some people don't like. Whether a person has bought a chess set or not, doesn't make their opinion of it useful. Same applies here, "the player base as a whole" doesn't really matter. Just a good game.

For TFP; just make a Good Game, based on your own standards. Aim for good, not "no whiners". If you think lakes without H2O is good, then make it so. If you never want to see another LBD in your lifetime, there's no need to implement one. Just make sure the game is good - for whatever you're aiming for...
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There are plenty of examples of good things going sour by not listening to their fans. It's exactly why there are mixed steam reviews and if 2.0 is any indication it's that the developers, even after making a great game overall, trip up sometimes.

Again it isn't to listen to everyone individually but gather collective sentiment and adjust accordingly. The developers take feedback and sentiment and make changes based on what they feel would be best going forward. Not every idea will make the cut for various reasons, but they should listen.
 
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