Let's discuss Learn By Doing for hopefully the last time.

[Kyoji]

I would like a learning by doing combined with perks and recipes. LBD for action skills, Perks for crafting and other stuff. Things like Living of the Land that would require too much time to do by LBD can also be a perk, And here and there books that can be found to boost the action skill and recipes for crafting to have a chance to craft things you don´t have put points into. Combine that with a level restriction so progression can´t be stupid fast.

I think Lazman suggested something similar as well where you have the best of both worlds.

I play melee mainly but have a gun for those “oh ■■■■” moments. Which are very rare. My gun would suck till endgame and beyond with LBD. With current system I can just spec into it and have fun. To me, that’s freedom.

A good point. Honestly off the top of my head I can't think of a way to make that work without undermining the whole point of LBD.


LBD was never my hill to die on as fundamentally there are flaws in both systems and I just don't want to spend time on redoing a major system... again. The point of LBD is realism and that is an important aspect but not more than gameplay for me. I think the magazines work well enough with minor tweaks. So for me it isn't whether LBD is a better system, but whether it's worth taking a large amount of time to rework once again and I think the answer for me is no.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

I play melee mainly but have a gun for those “oh ■■■■” moments. Which are very rare. My gun would suck till endgame and beyond with LBD. With current system I can just spec into it and have fun. To me, that’s freedom.

It doesn't have to. With my proposed ideas you would still get the the most increase by using your chosen perks for whatever gun/weapon you like. LBD would be more of a general slowly building action skill that would help a bit with damage or it could just be better reload speed, accuracy, recoil etc with all guns.

 

[zztong]

@zztong It works fine in Darkness Falls. People even get the wellness system after a while. And tbh if people are confused by a LBD/perk mix system, i doubt they can even live long enough in game to be worried about that. It´s not exactly rocket science.

People confused by a perk/lbd mix would also be confused by a magazine/perk system and the LBD/perk system makes way more sense. So no worries here.

And there will always be abuse. You can abuse the perk and magazine system as well. It´s called fergettin elixir and/or huntung down every mailbox and newspaper stand. You can get magazines super fast if you want. way too fast with nerd outfit and bookworm.

I wouldn't say the Darkness Falls player base is a good representation of all players. That's got to be like less than 1%.

I am currently playing a multiplayer game with friends who are either new to the game or haven't played since A19. The subtleties of the magazine system do escape them. One needed help placing a bicycle and didn't figure out they could set a number to be crafted. New players face a whole lot of new information to process.

I hear you about abuse, though I'm not sure I'd say it is abusive to frequent mailboxes. Well, it is perhaps unfair on a server where the early birds get the worm and the late comers cannot, just like how all of the POIs are looted and the late comers must do quests to get anything.

 

[zztong]

The Town Hall was just a recent example, but I see it constantly over YT,Reddit, Steam..you name it. You don't have to believe it, or see it, but either way I don't think this is important thing to focus on. I would rather discuss improving the game mechanics in a more interesting way with a system that existed in the past and how to fit in with current systems.

I read and watch those sources too. What is hard to determine, without tracking, is how many people are actually involved. A handful of people can keep the conversation alive while a great many people say nothing.

I agree completely with focusing on mechanical improvement and would point out there's several angles to that. Realism helps immersion but doesn't always make for the best game. Finding that sweet spot is hard.

I'd also say I'm not opposed to LBD, but it has to accomplish something. Movement to gain an Athletics skill is basically just a timer. You could get the same thing by looking at the character's level and save the processing related to tracking. It doesn't provide any decision for the player to make, so I find it a very uninteresting mechanic applied in that way.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

New players face a whole lot of new information to process.

There is a steep learning curve. No question about that. I had someone DM me on the Discord complaining that it was too hard to find purified water. My guess is, he'd found one or two mineral waters and decided that was like purified water in a game like Fallout. Told him to find a cooking pot. Problem solved. Then he wondered why that isn't mentioned anywhere by the game. Maybe that should be among the first "objectives" presented?

Nothing you can do about the steep learning curve. I get the impression TFP thought there was by making an incredibly long tutorial they later cut in half, introducing a game crashing bug along the way.

Give people some credit, I say. They'll figure it out on their own...if they don't just adopt a playstyle from YouTube.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

I read and watch those sources too. What is hard to determine, without tracking, is how many people are actually involved. A handful of people can keep the conversation alive while a great many people say nothing.

I agree completely with focusing on mechanical improvement and would point out there's several angles to that. Realism helps immersion but doesn't always make for the best game. Finding that sweet spot is hard.

I'd also say I'm not opposed to LBD, but it has to accomplish something. Movement to gain an Athletics skill is basically just a timer. You could get the same thing by looking at the character's level and save the processing related to tracking. It doesn't provide any decision for the player to make, so I find it a very uninteresting mechanic applied in that way.

Athletics could be tied to other things than just holding shift and running. I mean running more to increase it makes the most sense, but jumping, mining, and fighting in melee could affect it as well. Main problem with jumping is you could just spam jump all night so maybe that shouldn't be considered. I feel like though things that use your stamina should affect it. I guess it could fill the action skill niche of being a stamina skill instead of just running.

 

[zztong]

Athletics could be tied to other things than just holding shift and running. I mean running more to increase it makes the most sense, but jumping, mining, and fighting in melee could affect it as well. Main problem with jumping is you could just spam jump all night so maybe that shouldn't be considered. I feel like though things that use your stamina should affect it. I guess it could fill the action skill niche of being a stamina skill instead of just running.

Two thoughts:

It feels like gating improved Stamina regeneration behind just playing the game for some amount of time. Does the game really have to track time running, number of jumps, time mining, and number of melee swings? Does that add to the game? There's no decision being made by the player as those are things they're going to do anyways, right? Unless couch potato play is a temptation for players? Maybe I'm not in the right frame of mind to understand.

The game already makes stamina use an issue with melee attacks and power attacks. If you run and power attack, you may not have enough stamina to attack. There's a tactical decision there and a Perk economic decision in what do you invest in and when. To me, that's interesting.

Also, just pointing out, my comments here only related to the notion of an Athletics LBD skill, not all of LBD.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

Two thoughts:

It feels like gating improved Stamina regeneration behind just playing the game for some amount of time. Does the game really have to track time running, number of jumps, time mining, and number of melee swings? Does that add to the game? There's no decision being made by the player as those are things they're going to do anyways, right? Unless couch potato play is a temptation for players? Maybe I'm not in the right frame of mind to understand.

The game already makes stamina use an issue with melee attacks and power attacks. If you run and power attack, you may not have enough stamina to attack. There's a tactical decision there and a Perk economic decision in what do you invest in and when. To me, that's interesting.

I feel like there can be decisions to made.. for example if it's night time do you want to go out and risk mining and fighting to increase your skills? Honestly my LBD ideas are meant to give you those nice small dopamine hits and to reward what you normally do so it doesn't feel like a grind. I don't have any problems with keeping perks as they are now mostly and affecting stamina as they are. Again, as I have said I want LBD to compliment the current systems and not totally take over.

Honestly there a lot of ways you can design this action skill. Do you want faster stamina gain? Do you want it to give max stamina instead and change how max HP and stamina gains are made? I do think the running idea was boring and I agree there is no decision there that's why I think limiting the xp to actually harvesting and fighting might be the best thing.

 

[Archael]

My idea is that crafting skills should rise with using tied items, like using pickaxe will rise pickaxe (or all gathering tools) crafting skill experience and level. It's not exploitable, it's not difficult to implement, it's organic. It doesn't negate looting and questing since one still needs materials for better eq.

 

[Sapient6]

The same abuse argument can be used for the current book system. It can be done (and is done) in the current system by day 21 on max difficulty.
I guess the point im trying to get across is people will always find a way to exploit any system. Its human nature. But its also a game so you have the right to play it how you like. Want to exploit great off you go and do it.. dont want to exploit and like to role play more.. Play like that.

The LBD argument has been a long standing talking point from the day it was removed in A17. But as the current system has developed, the freedom to play as you like has been removed to a greater depth pushing this argument to the forefront of what made the game enjoyable for a large number of players who like putting long play periods in 200+ day playthrough solo.

The difficult part is finding that balance and yes im fully aware what ever system is put in place it wont keep everyone happy. The goal is to find the happy middle ground.

That wasn't my point about LBD in Morrowind at all. From my point of view, LBD in Elderscrolls game is an example of the worst of the worst. It is terrible. And yet Morrowind is my favorite of all LBD systems simply because I could jank it entirely out of my way via minimal time expenditure and repetition.

I like the perk books in 7days. I don't like the magazines, but for the most part I can ignore the magazines. If I just play how I want and read the magazines I happen to find along the way then I will reliably unlock the crafting I need at a pace that roughly matches my level progress within the game (e.g. by the time I need to craft X in order to deal with the zombies I am fighting, I can craft X (around the same time I start to see it in loot)). RNG is RNG so it never precisely lines up, but it does line up one way or another.

So in that sense, although I'm not a fan of the magazines, I'm lucky in that my play style aligns with them pretty well and I don't have to think about them beyond "oh, I should read this" or "I should save this for my teammates".

If 7days were to implement LBD and it lined up so I never had to think about it I wouldn't care. But that would be a first for me. I have never, in over 4 decades of gaming, come across a LBD system that didn't behave like a time-sucking obstacle to having fun.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

If 7days were to implement LBD and it lined up so I never had to think about it I wouldn't care. But that would be a first for me. I have never, in over 4 decades of gaming, come across a LBD system that didn't behave like a time-sucking obstacle to having fun.

With what I had in mind you wouldn't have to think about it that much and it would sit nicely between the current two systems of perks and magazines. Like I said it would give you those small dopamine hits from doing tasks you would normally do and you would slowly get better at them, but you wouldn't need to go out of your way to grind them because perks would still be the main factor.

 

[Kalen]

If 7days were to implement LBD and it lined up so I never had to think about it I wouldn't care. But that would be a first for me. I have never, in over 4 decades of gaming, come across a LBD system that didn't behave like a time-sucking obstacle to having fun.

I get what you're saying, but in a way, that kind of defeats the purpose of LBD. If you want to be proficient at something you just use it and over time you should get better and better at a reasonable rate. However, you want to be an expert at something, you'll need to devote time to practice using that item. Survival games in general should leverage people's time management skills. For example, are you going to spend time practicing crafting to become an expert crafter or be content being an adequate crafter and use that time scavenging for food.

 

[YourMirror]

I get what you're saying, but in a way, that kind of defeats the purpose of LBD. If you want to be proficient at something you just use it and over time you should get better and better at a reasonable rate. However, you want to be an expert at something, you'll need to devote time to practice using that item. Survival games in general should leverage people's time management skills. For example, are you going to spend time practicing crafting to become an expert crafter or be content being an adequate crafter and use that time scavenging for food.

That's the LBD i would hate and not want to see in game. As said before, i use mainly melee and have a backup gun for "oh ■■■■" moments which i rarely use. With current system i can just spec into that with my "life experience" and have fun playing. That's freedom (what everybode seems to use as an argument for bringing things back from the past) and i would lose that. I would be stuck with a gun that will be bad till endgame and beyond. That would be real loss of freedom.

 

[Kalen]

That's the LBD i would hate and not want to see in game. As said before, i use mainly melee and have a backup gun for "oh ■■■■" moments which i rarely use. With current system i can just spec into that with my "life experience". That's freedom (what everybode seems to use as an argument for bringing thing back from the past) and i would lose that. I would be stuck with a gun that will be bad till endgame and beyond. That would be real loss of freedom.

You're saying that you can't use a gun unless you have skill in it and that's just not so. Guns are effective even at very low skill levels.... IMO, if you want to be very good with guns, then you should have to use them. I dislike the idea that you can just magically be good at a gun without ever firing one until you're an expert.

 

[YourMirror]

You're saying that you can't use a gun unless you have skill in it and that's just not so. Guns are effective even at very low skill levels.... IMO, if you want to be very good with guns, then you should have to use them. I dislike the idea that you can just magically be good at a gun without ever firing one until you're an expert.

Then we agree to disagree. I would hate it.

 

[Kalen]

Then we agree to disagree. I would hate it.

Agreed, its going to be impossible for TFP to cater to everyone's preferred style of play. To be fair, my opinions on LBD are more philosophical because, as I've stated before, I'm under no illusions that its ever coming back. That ship has sailed.

 

[Sapient6]

I get what you're saying, but in a way, that kind of defeats the purpose of LBD.

I agree, which is at the core of why, while I dislike the magazine system by a lot, I greatly prefer it over the mere proposal of LBD. It sucks, but it sucks less.

 

[YourMirror]

Agreed, its going to be impossible for TFP to cater to everyone's preferred style of play. To be fair, my opinions on LBD are more philosophical because, as I've stated before, I'm under no illusions that its ever coming back. That ship has sailed.

Well i liked the idea of OgreSlayer. Keeping the perks to get advantage in weapons, skill etc, but on top of that go some kind of mastery with LBD. That i wouldnt mind at all. If thats enough for the die hard survivalists? I doubt it. But you said it right they can't possible cater everyone's preferences. Im just glad you speak for yourself as i do. And not calling in the "core players", "real fans", "most players" etc. That was a compliment

 

[Kalen]

I agree, which is at the core of why, while I dislike the magazine system by a lot, I greatly prefer it over the mere proposal of LBD. It sucks, but it sucks less.

The thing I really dislike about the magazine system is its opaqueness. Unless you understand how it works you can sabotage your chances of getting certain skills depending on your perk choices. I REALLY don't like that.

 

[Sapient6]

With what I had in mind you wouldn't have to think about it that much and it would sit nicely between the current two systems of perks and magazines. Like I said it would give you those small dopamine hits from doing tasks you would normally do and you would slowly get better at them, but you wouldn't need to go out of your way to grind them because perks would still be the main factor.

I did get that gist. But for me the point of contention isn't about your particular proposal, but about the larger impact of any actual implementation of LBD in 7days. At the end of the day if TFP does switch back partially or in full, it's unlikely that they'd implement something according to the community's specifications. Which brings us back to the question of how LBD systems are implemented in games in general, and it is my opinion that in general LBD systems always suck.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 1:01 PM

The thing I really dislike about the magazine system is its opaqueness. Unless you understand how it works you can sabotage your chances of getting certain skills depending on your perk choices. I REALLY don't like that.

My main dislike of magazines is loot clutter. I play long games, so although I never grind for magazines I always reach the point where I've read them all. And there's just so many of them. Most of the stuff you open turns them up. It gets even worse now if you go for INT mastery because you want that ultimate baton buff.

Close runner up on why magazines suck: they just generally blow for Camp Moms.