Let's discuss Learn By Doing for hopefully the last time.

I am playing A16, actually.... the complaint about spam crafting is talking about A15, like you said. I dont think anyone said spam crafting in A16 was a problem.
Well I am confused now cause I never mentioned A15 at the start then you say I'm wrong? Very confusing. My point is TFP keep using that talking point even though LBD still exists on 16 and there is no spam crafting. I see a lot of people that are misinformed in various places that are against LBD and use that same talking point as an argument and think it applies to A16.
 
Well I am confused now cause I never mentioned A15 at the start then you say I'm wrong? Very confusing. My point is TFP keep using that talking point even though LBD still exists on 16 and there is no spam crafting. I see a lot of people that are misinformed in various places that are against LBD and use that same talking point as an argument and think it applies to A16.
Well, maybe I'm just giving people too much credit, but when people complain about spam crafting with LBD, I assume they're talking about the version where there was spam crafting. I'm not familiar with TFP talking points on the matter, but I would assume the same.
 
Well, maybe I'm just giving people too much credit, but when people complain about spam crafting with LBD, I assume they're talking about the version where there was spam crafting. I'm not familiar with TFP talking points on the matter, but I would assume the same.
Im pretty sure he said that it was a thing and then it was balanced, so he was not talking about the time when it was a thing, but rather brought an argument it can be balanced.
 
Well I am confused now cause I never mentioned A15 at the start then you say I'm wrong? Very confusing. My point is TFP keep using that talking point even though LBD still exists on 16 and there is no spam crafting. I see a lot of people that are misinformed in various places that are against LBD and use that same talking point as an argument and think it applies to A16.

Its a fluid conversation with a number of people, so it often feels like things come at you from all different angles.

I look at it like this: LBD was around for several versions and got some revision. Any new system or proposal has to overcome the criticisms of the past, regardless of version. Also, it has been many years since most people played A16.4 and it isn't likely to have remained in their heads with a lot of nuance. A15, A16 ... its a blur. I had to spend a day going back to A16.4 to remember.
 
That wasn't my point about LBD

I like the perk books in 7days. I don't like the magazines, but for the most part I can ignore the magazines. If I just play how I want and read the magazines I happen to find along the way then I will reliably unlock the crafting I need at a pace that roughly matches my level progress within the game (e.g. by the time I need to craft X in order to deal with the zombies I am fighting, I can craft X (around the same time I start to see it in loot)). RNG is RNG so it never precisely lines up, but it does line up one way or another.
Yeah i see your looking for that natural progression where there is no real thought process to achieve the goal of progression. Fits with a casual play through. However like everything the community is split about how that should be. Yeah i dont mind the magazines but with the bonus's that come with them you cant ignore them as they are super powerful.

The experience i have with the game right now when it comes book learning is (For F sake Finally i dont want to look at another f-ing mailbox) Its the same for a lot of people now you can take the stance that ok i wont go book hunting to progress and let it come naturally. Now the issue with that is the came progression now outpaces the player progression which sets you into a downward spiral of death and destruction and the added xp debuf.
The whole thing is a repetitive chore looking for books with not a reward at the end but a feeling of "Finally im not being punished"
There needs to be that nice blend where if you want to play casual the progression comes naturally but at the same time if you want to mid max there is no restrictions. How we get there i dont know...
 
LBD (especially version of mine) is better than magazines for one specific reason: it's not forcing one playstyle.
While magaInes Forces everyone for looting and questing, as much as possible to the point that anything else, like farming, hunting, mining, and other activities become no more than side quest hobbies, especially that most things you will get from traders anyway.
LBD gives freedom, if one wants be better at making, they go and mine, if one wants to get better loot from dismantling cars, they do what they want. Only people forced to playstyle they don't like are those who wants to max everything.
 
Yeah i see your looking for that natural progression where there is no real thought process to achieve the goal of progression.

No, it's not that at all. I'd vastly prefer a system that is fun and immersive to engage with directly, and I adore complex systems.

But for me that describes neither LBD nor Magazines. So if I'm to select my preference between two systems I don't enjoy, then I'm going to select the system that I can most ignore. It just so happens that for me that's magazines. But if I were focusing on crafting and blood moons, and hated questing, then I'd be modding the magazines right out of the game lickety split.
 
There are a lot of good points there.
I think finding a balance between the books and LBD system would work best.
The one thing that i really dislike is the need to hunt for books to progress. But i know at this point its not going away so a balance needs to be found.
Another one that i think really needs to be looked at is removing the need to be stuck in a perk tree.. If i want rifle knife and tools let me... Dont keep me stuck on clubs shotguns tools.
Focus on giving the freedom back to the player to create their own play-through and spec out their character how they wish.
I don't get it. How are you stuck? What prevents you from spending points wherever you want?
 
Well one sample size is the last Town Hall they had on Twitch. The main things being spammed by many different people were two things: Jars and LBD. I've seen it been said in many other places over the years so I think it's a fair statement to suggest it's a very popular idea.
...among those attending the Town Hall, who are likely experienced players of the game who started out playing years ago, who are likely to feel nostalgia over the version them fell in love with. It's a subset of vocal players not necessarily representing the majority.
 
I don't get it. How are you stuck? What prevents you from spending points wherever you want?
If you take it at face value there is nothing stopping you from spreading your points across multiple tree's. But what that does is hinders your progress as currently the loot table, trader quests and progression is heavily favored to specializing into one tree. If you dont you find that the zombie/game progression outpaces your damage output and book progression. The bonus's that come with specializing is a little to over powered and is very much a requirement. Especially at higher game difficulties.

Now this isnt an issue when playing sandbox solo as you can adjust the game difficulty to suit the game stage and progression, which will also prolong the book progression as the loot table is spread across so many variables. But that does not work in co-op unless you create a rule by which no one can specialize and become OP.

Hope that explains the view some of us feel stuck in not being able to mix and match our play style
 
I get that being able to get better at what you choose and not what you do, doesn't make much sense. In real life, practice makes perfect. You get better at the stuff you do. But this isn't a realistic game in so many other ways, so I don't have an issue with that.

A complete learn-by-doing is totally unengaging. I play Valheim a lot and I never think about my skills because they just adjust automatically as I play. There is no choices to make, no thoughts required, it just...happens. With the current system in 7DTD, I have to think and plan how to develop. I can put my skill points in those skills I have been mostly using (which would emulate LBD and possibly make sense since this is what I will be doing more of in the future, too), but I could also spend them on something else under the imagination that the books/magazines I have read allows me to learn skills without much practical experience (yet). Yes, this is not totally realistic, but it is so much fun, so engaging to plan what I need, to plan how my character develops. I vastly prefers this to just automatic increases in ability as I do things. And the current system also provides me with something else to do at night, as I brood over choices and combinations of perks. There is no obvious solution, in each solo game I do it differently and learn new things about what works and what doesn't.

My main issue with the current system is that it rewards just hunting for mailboxes which I find tedious. When playing solo I can just not do it, while realizing that it would help me if I did, but it is harder when playing with friends. I would prefer a system where magazines/books were more scarce so players wouldn't have an incentive to just run from mailbox to mailbox.
 
No, it's not that at all. I'd vastly prefer a system that is fun and immersive to engage with directly, and I adore complex systems.

But for me that describes neither LBD nor Magazines. So if I'm to select my preference between two systems I don't enjoy, then I'm going to select the system that I can most ignore. It just so happens that for me that's magazines. But if I were focusing on crafting and blood moons, and hated questing, then I'd be modding the magazines right out of the game lickety split.
So you want a system that is immersive and engaging but you chose a system which removes all of that and puts into a system you have no control over. Just to ignore the system entirely. Im clearly missing something.
My other most played game is factorio so i also enjoy complex systems but at the same time i also understand the game needs to be accessible to people who dont want it that complex.
 
I get that being able to get better at what you choose and not what you do, doesn't make much sense. In real life, practice makes perfect. You get better at the stuff you do. But this isn't a realistic game in so many other ways, so I don't have an issue with that.

A complete learn-by-doing is totally unengaging.

My main issue with the current system is that it rewards just hunting for mailboxes which I find tedious.
We are on the exact same page. I dont want to see the return of a full LBD system for those exact reasons. So some form of hybrid where it has a combination of both might be the right direction to take.
 
If you take it at face value there is nothing stopping you from spreading your points across multiple tree's. But what that does is hinders your progress as currently the loot table, trader quests and progression is heavily favored to specializing into one tree. If you dont you find that the zombie/game progression outpaces your damage output and book progression. The bonus's that come with specializing is a little to over powered and is very much a requirement. Especially at higher game difficulties.

Now this isnt an issue when playing sandbox solo as you can adjust the game difficulty to suit the game stage and progression, which will also prolong the book progression as the loot table is spread across so many variables. But that does not work in co-op unless you create a rule by which no one can specialize and become OP.

Hope that explains the view some of us feel stuck in not being able to mix and match our play style
I play at solo hardest difficult with permadeath and I spread points around. I don't feel the game forces me to specialize. In my current game I focused at first on Strength because I wanted to test out the use of sledgehammer for the first time. But I also needed Parkour for my base design, to I had to spend some point in Agility. This turned out to be good, because I found a pistol early and could spend points on Gunslinger to be better. Then I realized I needed something stronger when cornered, so I started spending point on Boomstick, too, which is convenient since it requires Strength. But then I realized I should be better at shooting with rifles at Bloodmoons so I spent some points at Dead Eye (requiring Perception). I have also spent point on Intelligence for Siphoning Strike, which I kind of regret. My point is, the current system provides me with freedom to build a character that fits the circumstances of the game I play, I am not forced to build a specific character, and it is great fun to ponder what to do and try to come up with good combinations.

I realize that some very experienced players may have this down to a t, that they have figured out that one combination is always marginally better and hence only goes for that combination. But most players aren't like that. Most players are much more inexperienced and/or doesn't play games after having read up on all the details or watched videos that tell them exactly what they should do and how they should play the game. Such players will spend skill points on what they believe will be best, and maybe based on what they have found in the game. They will make mistakes, they will change their minds, and hopefully still have a very good gaming experience. Like I do (although I have played for a long time yet still refuses to cynically go for the theoretical best combination).

I do play quite a bit of multiplayer, too (I have been looking forward to a new game we will start when summer for a long time now), and then it is more likely we will choose to specialize more (often based on whatever weapon we find first, so if I find a pipe shotgun then I specialize on Boomstick), or we just decide that some should use melee and some should use guns. Anyway, it becomes a bit more specializing and less jack of all trades. But we are not forced to do it this way. It just makes sense. Not because the game is made that way, but because specializing is a facet of society. It makes sense that some become good at cooking and some at carrying heavy stuff. We do it this way because it is a strategy that makes sense, and it falls natural to us. And if any one of us prefer to mix their points more, then that person may do so. Some people in real life have diverse skills, too.

It is all good and the game doesn't force me to play in any specific way. The way it is set up now, I have freedom to spend exp on the stuff I have done (mimicking LBD) or spend them elsewhere (because, you know, I imagine I read books and can learn new skills from them). I get better because I do stuff, but also have the freedom to choose how my character should progress. And it works well for both solo and multiplayer.
 
I can respect that view and still have a differing option. TBO it would be awesome if we all felt that way about the current play style then we would not be having this discussion about game direction. However statically the majority are unhappy with the game direction.
A lot of people talk about just mod it out or play a overhaul mod. Thats great we have the option and modders to make that happen. However at this time its only for PC.

Personally im tired of having to mod my group servers all the time to address the current outstanding issues most of the players have. Its time consuming and with every update it breaks all the mods forcing a rework on everything and hours of testing. Whats even worse for me is there is no way of knowing what was broken between patchs due to the poor communication and patch notes.

Others say why not just make them toggle options. There is only so much that can be done using xml tables.
 
If you take it at face value there is nothing stopping you from spreading your points across multiple tree's. But what that does is hinders your progress as currently the loot table, trader quests and progression is heavily favored to specializing into one tree. If you dont you find that the zombie/game progression outpaces your damage output and book progression. The bonus's that come with specializing is a little to over powered and is very much a requirement. Especially at higher game difficulties.

I respect your calculus on this, though I've never followed it. I always spread my points around, largely between STR, STA, AGL, and now the Gear. I've not noticed the zombie progression outpace my damage, but as you mention we play at different difficulty levels. I largely hang out at the default.

However statically the majority are unhappy with the game direction.

I'm not doubting there is significant unrest, but I'd love to see the numbers if you've got them. Or, are you using "majority" casually?
 
TFP are currently at least engaging with Reddit over the Glass Jar issue and are open to feedback, so let's discuss this other hot button issue. In my opinion LBD was a fine system that a lot of people miss that just needed tweaking instead of out right removing like TFP often like to do unfortunately. One of TFP main arguments against LBD was you are just "spam crafting axes" which is something I don't understand. I've been playing A16 again recently and that was the best form of LBD they have ever done. For those who don't remember you can't just spam craft in A16, but rather you increase your tools, weapons etc crafting with perks which are gated by your level. I'm wondering if they played their game back then cause otherwise they would not make that spam craft argument.

I understand not everyone wants LBD back, but from the anecdotal evidence I'm seeing from all the posts / messages from various players over the years it appears to me MOST people do want this system back. Of course under A16 it was not perfect, but my hope is we can come up with a much better system that fits in the current 2.0 game and tries to satisfy the most amount of players possible. Personally I think we could create a system of LBD that also works with all the current systems to save TFP a lot of work rebalancing, reiterating and hopefully makes it sit well between the current systems. Below are some of my ideas for how it could work:

Learn By Doing:

1. Mining: Increased block damage when mining resources/digging terrain per level.
2. Woodcutting: Increased block damage when chopping trees and stumps per level.
3. Scavenging: Increased looting speed when looting per level.
4. Farming: Increased chance of farming yield per level. Could be growing much smaller % chance of a triple yield while harvesting crops and a higher growing % chance of double. (Living Off the Land perk would need to be changed/rebalanced)
5. Archery: Increased damage when using bows and crossbows per level
6. Firearms: Increased damage when using any firearm per level .
7. Melee: Increased damage when using any melee weapon including fists per level .
8. Animal Harvesting: Increased yield of animal hide and meat per level.
9. Cardio: Decreased stamina drain only while running per level.
10. Assassin: Increased sneak attack damage when making sneak attacks per level.
11. Bartering: Increased item value when selling items.

Faction system:

Increased amount of items offered from the trader when completing quests for the trader per level. Harder quests would give you more faction xp than easier ones. Each trader would have their own faction / xp bar. Maxing out Traders should not be too trivial and while maxed they could offer very high quality loot.

Perk system:

I'm not going to go big into big detail of all of the perks as they are in 2.0 , but obviously TFP would need to rebalance this. I will say I believe respecing should be encouraged with the Grandpa's Fergit'n Elixir and it should NOT reset the LBD skill levels. I think perks in general would complement the LBD well. You are getting lots of small increases with LBD and big increases with player levels that allow you to spec into whatever playstyle you are into.

Magazine system:

This is a polarizing system, but I believe it can still exist and work well with the other theoretical two skill systems. I personally would keep the magazines for the crafting skills cause it's much less annoying than spam crafting and makes more sense than just using skill points to increase your crafting skills. I think one of the main complaints is for MP with the magazines. What if while reading close to your friends while grouped up you all get credit for the magazine? This makes a lot more sense than eating the magazine and them getting no credit as you are now essentially sharing the knowledge with them. Honestly imo this is all they would need to do and this system doesn't need much touching.

Obviously this can be expanded upon and maybe even thought out better, but imo this is a great place for them to start. Thanks for reading and I appreciate any thoughts.

I never understood why people want a chore based progression system. *Let me check what the chore list tells me I need to play today*
 
I never understood why people want a chore based progression system. *Let me check what the chore list tells me I need to play today*
I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I believe choices should have consequences. In a system where you can do anything to get skill points, then you can spend those points wherever you want, your actions don't really have consequences. However, in a LBD system, what activities you chose to focus on impacts what skills improve which means your choices matter.
 
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