Kalen
Survivor
Another excellent point.
Let's discuss Learn By Doing for hopefully the last time.
- Thread starter OgreSlayeR
- Start date
zztong
Hunter
Yeh, as an educator I appreciate LBD in addition to methods to transfer knowledge. They both have their place. I'm just not sure they become game mechanics as easily, depending on game goals, user interfaces, other game mechanics, etc.
This is one reason I wondered if some acceptable LBD could be propped up by the Challenge system. For example:
- Run 5km without stopping and gain 5 Max Stamina.
- Kill 100 zombies with a club and get one club magazine.
- Kill 1,000 zombies with a club and get another club magazine.
Kalen
Survivor
If I'm being honest with myself, I so stubbornly hold on to the idea of LBD that I have trouble thinking of alternatives. It just makes so much sense to me, you want to get better at something you just do it!
But yeah, some kind of achievement system could work. Accomplish a specific task and get a related skill/perk/item.
OgreSlayeR
Refugee
Personally I don't like that idea cause it feels super gamey. I still feel like what I have proposed makes the most sense and wouldn't require a ton of work, just some balancing of the player perks with LBD in mind.
Magazines are a whole different issue and personally I don't mind them and I think they work fine for crafting skills and tbh I can't see TFP removing them. I'm not sure if they should be a reward for challenges. The challenge system in general is a pretty gamey system, but I realize it will never be 100% realistic. I just would prefer they don't add on to it even more.
YourMirror
Survivor
i am probably too old and too much of a boomer, but what does "gamey" even mean in any game? They are games, everything in it is gamey.
OgreSlayeR
Refugee
When something isn't immersive and it reminds you are playing a game and can perhaps lesson the experience depending on things. An arcadey experience so to speak. Something we should avoid as much as possible when the game was advertised as a horde, survival, crafting game.
There will never be a "last time" for this topic because people will never shut up about it.
Before anyone goes to jump on me for that statement, I am of the mind that some degrees of LBD could be done without abandoning other systems (notably the magazines). Something such as crafting the highest quality of an item you are capable of making gains you a point in that crafting skill. "But stone axe spam" becomes a moot point once you hit iron tools g1 and need forged iron, duct tape, etc. for those. They're cost prohibitive enough to where spam crafting stuff to level the skill isn't exactly ideal.
Just a napkin idea I had while eating lunch here.
Before anyone goes to jump on me for that statement, I am of the mind that some degrees of LBD could be done without abandoning other systems (notably the magazines). Something such as crafting the highest quality of an item you are capable of making gains you a point in that crafting skill. "But stone axe spam" becomes a moot point once you hit iron tools g1 and need forged iron, duct tape, etc. for those. They're cost prohibitive enough to where spam crafting stuff to level the skill isn't exactly ideal.
Just a napkin idea I had while eating lunch here.
YourMirror
Survivor
But horde, survival, crafting game is still a game right? I never ever thought i was buying a simulator 8 years back. I bought a game and when i play it i know its a game. I just dont get it.
OgreSlayeR
Refugee
The point is I want to be immersed and I expect a level of realism if I am playing a survival game. Regardless of the obvious fact I know I am playing a game. They don't have to make it more obvious is the point. If they advertised it as a more arcadey experience it would be different. I am currently playing A16 and if you look past the jank, the mechanics make the game feel much more realistic and immersive. Things simply make more sense. I want that same feeling but polished on 2.0.
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It's not a sim, but there are ways to keep it a game while also being immersive. For example smoothies versus the protective equipment. Is it a major deal? Only if you enjoy immersion. Otherwise we can just change some of the zombies to unicorns and functionally it would be the same. An enemy trying to kill you. Or perhaps give the zombies guns? My point is that either of those things are obvious examples of things with no immersion. To me a smoothie doesn't make much sense so it breaks immersion.
LBD like in TES feels artificial and tedious especially for people who wants expertise.
LBD like in a16 is exploitable and unfun to many.
Magazines as currently are too restrictive in gameplay.
I dont want to be that guy, but it seems i have to. My idea is something that connects all positives with no negatives:
Skill books as it is: encourage looting and questing.
Skill trees had to be redesigned, and weapons should not be tied to attributes, instead attributes should provide general bonusses, like strenght adds damage to melee and eq slots, perception gives crit chance and ability to track animals etc. While each weapon should have its own tree. This would allow for much more unique and diverse builds.
Crafting skills should be aquired from LBD but not like it was in previous alphas. Instead when you use an item you gain exp towards crafting better of that item. You still will find better versions of items you dont use, and your skill in using will be depend on your skillpoints form lvling, but expertise (often usage) will reward with ability to create better items and lvl6(legendary?) item as reward for devotion.
LBD like in a16 is exploitable and unfun to many.
Magazines as currently are too restrictive in gameplay.
I dont want to be that guy, but it seems i have to. My idea is something that connects all positives with no negatives:
Skill books as it is: encourage looting and questing.
Skill trees had to be redesigned, and weapons should not be tied to attributes, instead attributes should provide general bonusses, like strenght adds damage to melee and eq slots, perception gives crit chance and ability to track animals etc. While each weapon should have its own tree. This would allow for much more unique and diverse builds.
Crafting skills should be aquired from LBD but not like it was in previous alphas. Instead when you use an item you gain exp towards crafting better of that item. You still will find better versions of items you dont use, and your skill in using will be depend on your skillpoints form lvling, but expertise (often usage) will reward with ability to create better items and lvl6(legendary?) item as reward for devotion.
Pichii
Refugee
Sir, learn by doing is the most horrible system you could possibly use for a multiplayer game and this is why;
1. VERY EASY TO EXPLOIT
I stand in barbed wire and use medic kits to gain in armor skill cuz bigly uge brinz!
-This is fine in solo play but in MP, its horrid. I dont want to go back to this, ever.
2. Takes an eternity to level without exploiting the system.
Try leveling armor without exploiting the system. Its rediculous in how long it takes.
3. System rework
I want bandits, not a rework on learn by doing.
4. Recode
Costly to develop and 5 steps backwards.
5. Year-Long delay or more
A18 took 15 months. The playerbase complains at 6.
6. Lack of realism
To level armor, you stand in a dog pack or zombie pack and let them beat on you while just eating consumables to counter. This isnt fun nor engaging nor realistic.
7. Lack of engaging gameplay
While this system makes sense for cooking, mining and some other skills, its boring asf. Standing in zombie hordes to level and eating medical supplies isnt fun nor engaging gameplay.
8. This is better left as a mod.
A modder will have the time to balance things for their flavor and develop a complex system that can suit everyones needs rather than losing dev time for new content.
9. This has been discussed to death as youve mentioned and the pimps have replied to this directly many, many, many times.
Its a no. Theyve talked about it and this change was actually discussed on the forums at great length prior to the change. One of maybe 5 such subjects I can think of that was a big change and properly discussed.
10. They made the right decision on this one.
Im not a huge fan of the book system but I still think its better than learn by doing by far because I can level while doing various things in the game. Its much more engaging than just standing there to level a skill and falls back onto why certain medical effects are curable now... It sucked when the only remedy was to just... stand in the base. Its neither fun nor engaging even though its realistic.
So, for these reasons, let this discussion stay gone this time please.
Thank you.
OgreSlayeR
Refugee
That was certainly some words. It has little to do with my actual post though. I'm not sure why you are mentioning things like "To level armor, you stand in a dog pack or zombie pack and let them beat on you while just eating consumables to counter." It's clear you didn't read it or understand my post. I don't recall mentioning anything about leveling armor that way.
I also don't care about what TFP has said. They mistakenly have said time and time again that LBD is just "spamming axes" to level which I have proven is factually wrong. They don't know their own game.
They also said jars aren't coming back and now look at Joel's post on reddit that was forced by the bad reviews to ask the community why they want them back. A lot of us want LBD back as well even if it's partially as I proposed. I see no reason why they shouldn't do it partially with the current systems.
Kalen
Survivor
Look, I was a fan of the LBD system, but unless I'm not understanding you, you are incorrect. You could literally craft nothing but stone axes and get to the point where you could craft a max quality steel tool (as soon as you unlocked the recipe)
zztong
Hunter
Sure, practice is an important part of getting better at something you already have studied.
Magazines to me are the other part of learning -- instruction. Without instruction you come across new concepts and new techniques very slowly. Look at humanity. We needed how many thousands of years to figure out how to make an automobile? Without instruction, you miss the whole "standing on the shoulders of giants" part of learning.
To me, the jumps from stone to iron to steel need magazines, but the improvements within those bands could have some LBD in them.
Then we have Perks which are kind of a mix of LBD objectives and heroic abilities. Nobody is going to want to get rid of the heroics, so if there's LBD it has to find a niche.
OgreSlayeR
Refugee
Nope, play A16.4 or look at any videos. In A16.4 if you spam craft it does nothing. Only the Tool crafting perk will increase the quality of crafted items. They also are gated by character level. A15 was the spam craft alpha. Tired of people repeating TFP talking points about that.
Kalen
Survivor
True enough, the old system did account for that a little with books. For example, you had to find a book to unlock the crafting of steel tools or the minibike.
I'm just enjoying all the potential changes now.
I've already stated I don't care about LBD or jars much.
It's ok to have an opinion.
The jars thing wasn't a jab but just to showcase that things can always change even when we thought we would never go back. Here they are looking into it. All I'm saying is that anything is possible.
I've already stated I don't care about LBD or jars much.
It's ok to have an opinion.
The jars thing wasn't a jab but just to showcase that things can always change even when we thought we would never go back. Here they are looking into it. All I'm saying is that anything is possible.
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Kalen
Survivor
I am playing A16, actually.... the complaint about spam crafting is talking about A15, like you said. I dont think anyone said spam crafting in A16 was a problem.