They are bring a hybrid LBD!

madmole said:
To clarify, I meant near endless progression with crafting/looting/buying. Perks will not be touched, but imaging finding a cooking pot that cooks 10% faster than the one you have already, same with most things in the game. Combine two items into a better one. Perma degradation and the only way to get ol faithful running again (A rare legendary gun not repaired with repair kits) is to find another one and combine them in the workbench. That kind of thing. Crafting skills might max out at 200-400? But what you get from 100 to 200 is more like what you get now going from 90-100, so increases get more granular later game. Still to me as a player that's incentive to keep playing, even if things have slowed down some.
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I really love it, and I probably won’t stop playing this game anyway. When version 3.0 comes out, I’ll set the difficulty options so high that I won’t be able to survive even a single day, just to never get bored of the game lol
 
madmole said:
To clarify, I meant near endless progression with crafting/looting/buying. Perks will not be touched, but imaging finding a cooking pot that cooks 10% faster than the one you have already, same with most things in the game. Combine two items into a better one. Perma degradation and the only way to get ol faithful running again (A rare legendary gun not repaired with repair kits) is to find another one and combine them in the workbench. That kind of thing. Crafting skills might max out at 200-400? But what you get from 100 to 200 is more like what you get now going from 90-100, so increases get more granular later game. Still to me as a player that's incentive to keep playing, even if things have slowed down some.
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Ah, so I need to think of crafting/looting/buying differently from the perks. That part sounds neat. Is Permanent degradation a thing for all equipment or just the rare/legendary item? That is, "Old Sod Buster" the legendary shovel can't be repaired via a repair kit, but any old shovel from Working Stiffs can be?

I like the Perks, so I'm into them sticking around. In A16 folks could use "points" to improve a LBD skill. I think it was like +10 to that skill. I never really thought that was an economical choice, but I'm curious if that's part of the plan? I guess it would be something like spending a point to improve your Vehicles knowledge by 10, or something. I'm not advocating for that one way or another; just curious if that's in the mix?

So, echoing back what I think I'm hearing so you can correct me if I don't get it:

You can find magazines and they would add to a skill like they do now. Then you can also perform certain actions and they too would add to a skill. So, perhaps if you're harvesting crops your ability to craft Seeds also increases, as if you had read a copy of Southern Farming (or whatever the magazine's title is.) If that's the right idea, then finding a good balance in the number of harvests equating to a magazine will be an interesting effort.

Crafting seeds is probably a horrible example as I'm not sure what taking that skill above and beyond the current max will get you, unless the game grows into there being some kind of seed quality system, but I'm not sure that would inspire anyone.

So, if I back up and kind of summarize:

Perks remain (though there could be adjustments needed)

Crafting skill currently measured by magazine counts becomes a hybrid value that can be improved in multiple ways.

Crafting skills will scale higher both to support legendary items and an item attribute improvement system, but also to perhaps give some room mathematically for whatever the ratio between magazines and actions needs to be.

Am I close?
 
zztong said:
Crafting seeds is probably a horrible example as I'm not sure what taking that skill above and beyond the current max will get you, unless the game grows into there being some kind of seed quality system, but I'm not sure that would inspire anyone.
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My mind wouldn't let this go and I was thinking "what would a legendary seed be?"

I guess it could grow a legendary plant that continued to produce, like the old farm system where we didn't have to replant. Or, maybe it just gave a larger harvest.

I'd love the "don't have to replant" option. I would probably quit modding that old farming system back into the game if I could work towards that goal.
 
Jost Amman said:
Prediction: LBD will be a nightmare to balance.
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I could see where each action would need to have some configurable benefit as one to be universally applied wouldn't acknowledge that some actions are easier and/or more frequent than others. Thus, lots of playtest-refined balancing is probably going to be involved.

EDIT: To add to this, I could see where some players might enjoy being able to configure things like:

How much you gain from reading a magazine: 0 to 100% to +X%.
How much you gain from performing actions: 0 to 100% to +X%.

Beyond that, fine adjustments per action would have to be an XML change.
 
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madmole said:
LBD made it very difficult to level some skills. Magazines solved that, but there are so many to read it left magazine fatigue. I also wanted a system that can scale past 100 to go with the new inspired from old weapon combine system. So to make it all work there will be less magazines in loot providing maybe half the skill xp, with actions filling the other half. Magazines can level skills that don't have a decent action skill more, and ones that do, less.
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Having less magazines in loot is fine, but you would have to balance that out with you saying that some skills tend to rely more on magazines. For example simple running, jumping and other actions that require no effort but in order to balance would need a LOT of actions are best left to magazines, whereas active skills such as shooting zombies mesh well with LBD systems.

Also, I think it's a missed opportunity to bring back weapon combining without parts quality. It seems like whenever parts quality is brought up a lot of people seem to like it.
madmole said:
So magazines and actions will overdrive skills past 100 but it will get harder and slower, but I don't like skill caps they ruin your incentive to play. So there will be weapons and items all with magnitudes going up and up, but it will take a very high skill level to craft the best item because stats will be randomized, but the combine system lets you keep the best stats of the two items combined, so over time players can acquire the best items in the game through crafting and looting and combining, buying etc. Right now you hit a wall with purple and it's game over on the progression.
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If you are having skills go past 100 via actions then I would add in a degradation system that slowly lowers any skill post-100 so that you can go past 100 but unless you actively use the skills/actions it will slowly go back to 100. Like a hyperdrive meter. If it's too hard to get a skill past 100 then it might as well not be coded and if it's too easy then it's easy to abuse.
madmole said:
So we want to create endless progression to skills, items, mods, everything in the game, even cooking pots will have a cooking speed baked into a stat so you'll always be finding/crafting better stuff. Imagine a 200% fuel saver late game, but the first one is 10%, based on game stage for looting or your crafting skill.
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That is a good idea. It encourages more looting. Now we just need something similar for exploration. Cities have neutered any desire for me to go in the wilderness as it's a bad incentive proposition. I can either hover around close stockpiles of loot or wander around with nature that doesn't provide nearly as much tangible benefit. We need some very nice unique wilderness POIs that have unique loot, sub-biomes with things like a small honey patch, or a heavy mineral area, etc.
madmole said:
It's a big change but one that will add legs to looting/crafting/purchasing. Right now I kind of stop buying stuff from the trader, but if he had a purple auto shotgun that had ONE stat better than my purple shotgun, I'd buy it and combine the two. So the economy will be transformed as well. I'm super excited about these features.
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I think it's a step in the right direction for sure.
 
zztong said:
How much you gain from reading a magazine: 0 to 100% to +X%.
How much you gain from performing actions: 0 to 100% to +X%.
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I should be working, but this has my mind right now.

It wouldn't have to be an "action results in +0.1" skill system. It could be a "the action has an x% of an improvement system" where something throttles the amount you could earn. For example:

If you're salvaging a vehicle, there's a 2% chance per iteration with the wrench that you get a small skill improvement.

Or another angle, looting includes non-physical rewards. For example:

The salvage list for the vehicle includes: 1 motor, 50 iron, 4 springs, a tire, and +0.2 vehicles skill. In short, you get +1 skill for every 5 vehicles you salvage.
 
HammerDano said:
how much longer are you going to take to finish the game? seriously...how many more years? Shouldn't YOU have been sure of what you were doing BEFORE you acted like you guys finally had your ■■■■ together?
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So you don't like free updates? Minecraft is still not finished, Rust is still not finished, every decent game out there gets updated regularly, it's called a modern business model. The original kickstarter said some content would come post gold (1.0).

Lets cut the BS. Is there a feature you are waiting for specifically?
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Jost Amman said:
To be totally accurate... magazines solved the crafting level issue, not the action skills level-up issue of LBD.
Skill points (the current level-up mechanics) already solved the action skills level-up issue with LBD.

And that's why I like the skill point way more than LBD honestly.

Side note:
Thanks for taking the time to reply in this obscure internet forum! :sneaky:
How'd you find it? :unsure:
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Yes XP and leveling and perk purchasing will remain exactly as is. LBD will only influence your crafting skill like magazines currently do.
 
madmole said:
So you don't like free updates? Minecraft is still not finished, Rust is still not finished, every decent game out there gets updated regularly, it's called a modern business model. The original kickstarter said some content would come post gold (1.0).

Lets cut the BS. Is there a feature you are waiting for specifically?
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Yes XP and leveling and perk purchasing will remain exactly as is. LBD will only influence your crafting skill like magazines currently do.
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So the lbd won't effect stuff like mining and athletics? I get it cuz it would be exploidable but I'll let yall cook
 
Jost Amman said:
Prediction: LBD will be a nightmare to balance.
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XP for harvesting and killing is already done and balanced. Reuse those same values and input them into a skill XP bar per craft and that should be a good starting point. Yeah I'm sure it won't be a walk in the park, but no worthwhile task is.
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Adam the Waster said:
So the lbd won't effect stuff like mining and athletics? I get it cuz it would be exploidable but I'll let yall cook
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Learn by doing and reading magazines will only affect crafting skill the way magazines do now. Athletics improves by buying a perk.
 
madmole said:
So you don't like free updates? Minecraft is still not finished, Rust is still not finished, every decent game out there gets updated regularly, it's called a modern business model. The original kickstarter said some content would come post gold (1.0).

Lets cut the BS. Is there a feature you are waiting for specifically?
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Yes XP and leveling and perk purchasing will remain exactly as is. LBD will only influence your crafting skill like magazines currently do.
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YES some games keep adding content...because they have high replayability...not many games do. They keep ADDING PAST THE "FINISHED" GAME...to keep the revenue streams flowing. YOU resold this game to console with seemingly achievable dates and the idea that it would be finished in a year and a half...personally I added an extra 6 months. IF you keep adding content afterwards...great...but FINISH THE GAME. BANDITS AND STORY...that's what I am waiting for...not another trader re-skin. Not another progression system rework...a finished game. How many MORE years is it going to take to get BANDITS AND STORY done?
 
madmole said:
XP for harvesting and killing is already done and balanced. Reuse those same values and input them into a skill XP bar per craft and that should be a good starting point. Yeah I'm sure it won't be a walk in the park, but no worthwhile task is.
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Learn by doing and reading magazines will only affect crafting skill the way magazines do now. Athletics improves by buying a perk.
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I can see how this can work and I like the idea.

While i do miss some parts of lbd like the more open combat skills and slowly getting better at things over time. But I understand because they can be exploited. The only one I did was crafting but if this system was in alpha 15 I think spam crafting would be gone
 
HammerDano said:
YES some games keep adding content...because they have high replayability...not many games do. They keep ADDING PAST THE "FINISHED" GAME...to keep the revenue streams flowing. YOU resold this game to console with seemingly achievable dates and the idea that it would be finished in a year and a half...personally I added an extra 6 months. IF you keep adding content afterwards...great...but FINISH THE GAME. BANDITS AND STORY...that's what I am waiting for...not another trader re-skin. Not another progression system rework...a finished game. How many MORE years is it going to take to get BANDITS AND STORY done?
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Part of the community has been unhappy with us working on RPG elements (which broke and sometimes causes the removal of systems like smell and weather) so we brought back a lot of much needed survival elements. That said, me and 1-2 programmers can knock out the new gun and skill system while 98 other pimps work on bandits first, then story last. Not everyone works on one feature, so just because I say we're doing this or that doesn't mean the bandit progress meter flatlines or goes back to zero. Bandits are required for the main story, so they will come in a couple phases, then the story after that.

We are working on bandits and will start previewing some stuff real soon. We'll announce an updated roadmap too. I think we might even start putting previews of what's coming in the news launcher so anyone playing the game will know everything that's coming without getting on social media.
 
madmole said:
Part of the community has been unhappy with us working on RPG elements (which broke and sometimes causes the removal of systems like smell and weather) so we brought back a lot of much needed survival elements. That said, me and 1-2 programmers can knock out the new gun and skill system while 98 other pimps work on bandits first, then story last. Not everyone works on one feature, so just because I say we're doing this or that doesn't mean the bandit progress meter flatlines or goes back to zero. Bandits are required for the main story, so they will come in a couple phases, then the story after that.

We are working on bandits and will start previewing some stuff real soon. We'll announce an updated roadmap too. I think we might even start putting previews of what's coming in the news launcher so anyone playing the game will know everything that's coming without getting on social media.
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Thank you madmole and the other programmers for your hard work!!!
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While im not really a fan of the rpg class/build like system

I can always change it with mods
 
It'll be interesting to see if/how this uncapped crafting progression system interacts with previously non-leveled items. Are we going to see levelled vehicles where my 4x4 might be faster than someone elses? Or levels to the food you craft where my spaghetti might be more efficient than someone elses. I like the idea of that depth but I also slightly phase into PTSD from the enchanting-restoration loop of skyrim lmao.
 
madmole said:
Part of the community has been unhappy with us working on RPG elements (which broke and sometimes causes the removal of systems like smell and weather) so we brought back a lot of much needed survival elements. That said, me and 1-2 programmers can knock out the new gun and skill system while 98 other pimps work on bandits first, then story last. Not everyone works on one feature, so just because I say we're doing this or that doesn't mean the bandit progress meter flatlines or goes back to zero. Bandits are required for the main story, so they will come in a couple phases, then the story after that.

We are working on bandits and will start previewing some stuff real soon. We'll announce an updated roadmap too. I think we might even start putting previews of what's coming in the news launcher so anyone playing the game will know everything that's coming without getting on social media.
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Look. I get that at any given minute a "group" of people are not happy with you guys changing direction...again. It's because you keep changing direction. These "groups" formed when they had a play style or options, and they get removed...because YOU didn't like that some very few "exploited"...or you decided to rework progression instead of refining what you had. I have paid full price twice for this game and still don't have a "finished" version to play. I like what you had to say...I just don't like that you had no answer for how long it is going to take.
Is Bandit AI being written by ONE PERSON or a team? because I am under the impression that it is the responsibility of ONE PERSON...and they have not been dedicated to just getting that done. That Bandits are STILL not game ready...and it's a year past when they were supposed to be in the game.
 
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