"The PvP Update"

Gazz said:
"The PvP Update"

How would the game have to be balanced to make PVP viable?

Broad strokes.

I'm no PVP player so while I can see the balance issues in the abstract, I am more of a neutral observer here. =)

Sound

As mentioned here recently it's really hard to sneak up on someone if your food level drops below 50% or so and your character has an orgasm that can be heard from half a kilometer away.

Hiding yourself or your base is equally hard for the same reason.

Keep in mind that the notion of hiding being the only defense can not be the base for everything. It is one aspect!

If it can be made sufficiently hard to break into bases, hiding would not be the only viable solution.

Offline raiding / griefing vs PVP

PVP in theory:

2-5 players have an exciting time of hide and seek or assaulting someone's base.
PVP in practice:

You log in and your base has been reduced to rubble.
Every. Single. Day.

Ark has turrets and NPC (dinosaurs) and 99% of the PVP in that game looks like... you log in and your base has been reduced to rubble (and all your dinos killed).

Can NPC and turrets defend a base while the player is offline or will having turrets and NPC only increase the impact of griefing on the victim because he also has to rebuild turrets and find/hire NPC again?

I talked to MM about this and he does not consider a separate (and working) offline claim protection a necessity. Is that so?

(previous claim stone topic: here)

On the 4 or 5 PVP servers were I asked no one even knew if "offline claim protection" actually worked. (as in having a higher x than when online)

Loss and recovering from it

Okay, so you got raided and you respawn around the central hub in your undies.

Spawn spots are static so on an "established" PVP server with an "alpha tribe" you now log into the steel cages built around all the newbie spawn spots and would have to knock down the wall with your fists.

With only 2 layers you have to destroy 4 blocks for a total of 13 RL hours of punching.

You would of course starve to death and respawn in a different cage several times before you had a chance to get out of one such spot.

Oh, and before you laugh it off as a "no one would ever do that"... I logged into a PVP server, looked up, and saw this:



Land claimed, naturally. I am not making this up...

But let's say you are dedicated enough to this particular server to not quit but instead invest a few RL days to get back out of the starter cages and that the alpha tribe is terribly neglect about maintaining their cages.

Ideally you have caches of gear hidden away but let's say they were found as well.

On a PVE server where people build awesome bases instead of trying to cave each other's heads in the resource balance works well enough.

On a PVP server... should you harvest resources faster?

I'm not talking about digging faster - but instead of getting 25 rocks and 2 iron from a stone block you might get 100 rocks and 8 iron from the same block.

If fighting players is supposed to be a substantial part of the game, base building / repair and resource harvesting needs to adjust.

Explosives / Rockets

On a PVE server, some players use TNT for mining / excavating which is no problem whatsoever.

I tried asking around on a few PVP servers today but that was a complete waste of time. No one knows ♥♥♥♥. I got a few guesses and opinions and zero usable data.

On a PVP server... how well do rockets and dynamite work?

How many of each do you need to get through an iron / vault door or open a chest?

Does it matter which block (upper/lower/before) of a door you target?

Time management

How long in RL units should it take to knock down a steel block or door?

Right now tools and skills are really powerful.

Near 400 DPS for a steel pick so with a x8 modifier, a steel block lasts 5 minutes, a vault door 8 minutes.

Does anyone actually do that or does everyone use explosives? (see above)

Blocks like "stone" have a

<property name="LPHardnessScale" value="2" />

If it works as designed (did not test it myself) then a stone block only has a 2x claim modifier instead of whatever the server setting is.

With a steel pick that's two hits tops so the most obvious way to attack someone's base would be to undermine it and let it collapse instead of going through the much harder front door.

Or am I missing something?

Naturally that doesn't count bedrock bases but should it be a requirement to build at bedrock to avoid this cheesy tactic?
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gazz, i would like to welcome you to come play pvp on our server sometime during 2.0 - our pvp players have many many great ideas that wouldn't take a rewrite of the game just simple balances and fixs that would dramatically improve the pvp experience.
 
Grandpa Minion said:
decade later we still waiting?
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You may be waiting for several decades. Priorities and plans have shifted since I made that post so long ago. There’s still a chance they could do a PvP mode but that isn’t listed on their roadmap so who knows if it will ever happen?
 
Roland said:
You may be waiting for several decades.
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after all these years 2.0 finally brings a pvp update... not just by the weather portion of it but by the pvp meta that will change due to the new progression and biom mechanics. Its most definately a step in the right direction.
now if tfp would just focus on critical pvp bugs even only if its half as much as they do on twitch features progress could really be made.
 
Just because it changes things doesn't really make it even remotely a PVP update, but if it makes you happy, there isn't anything wrong with that. In the end, the weather and biomes only change things without really improving PVP. It is a fresh coat of paint, but not a new POI. 😁

A month or two after it is out and you will be complaining that they don't do anything for PVP again.
 
Riamus said:
Just because it changes things doesn't really make it even remotely a PVP update,
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anything that creates pvp opportunity is a good thing and 2.0 delivers.. no longer will players be able to run away to other bioms. Its most definately a pvp update. Sorry they gave pvp so much luv on this one instead of adding bandits the thing is a pvp update was long over due.
 
Yeah, I see neither. Not supporting someone's ideas or disagreeing with them or pointing out flaws in their statements isn't the same thing. And if it ever got to the point where it was, the moderators would warn people. There is also a place for things... This thread is about PVP and anything about PVP is fine here. That doesn't mean pointing out fake or inflated numbers or flaws in statements isn't okay, though. On the other hand, taking over the dev diary multiple times deserves pushback because that that the place to ask for PVP every could of months. Granted, that is my view and I'm no moderator, but that does seem to be the overall view here.

It is also important to allow discussion and debate from all points of view on topics on a public forum as long as they are the proper location. If people want all "yes men" who will agree with everything they say and tell them their ideas are all great, a public forum isn't the place to be. Discussion and debate and dissent is good. It can even help the original person to improve on their original idea. But it also lets the devs see what people think of an idea. If no one ever said an idea was bad, the devs might assume most people will like something even if that isn't true.
 
Maybe it's a lot, but he does continue to repeat the same inflated numbers every couple of months for years now. I know I've even suggested to him to just ask for the things he would like to see for PVP without putting up all the false and misleading information, but he ignores the advice. In the end, this back and forth with him isn't new and has gone on for a long time. If he felt it was going overboard, he could easily ask a moderator to ask people to rein it in. But that would be up to him whether or not he even considers it an issue. And it wouldn't mean people can't continue to point out the inflated and misleading information he posts if he keeps doing so. It isn't helpful to allow such false information to go unchallenged. And that is most of what people push back on.
 
Riamus said:
Maybe it's a lot, but he does continue to repeat the same inflated numbers every couple of months for years now. I know I've even suggested to him to just ask for the things he would like to see for PVP without putting up all the false and misleading information, but he ignores the advice. In the end, this back and forth with him isn't new and has gone on for a long time. If he felt it was going overboard, he could easily ask a moderator to ask people to rein it in. But that would be up to him whether or not he even considers it an issue. And it wouldn't mean people can't continue to point out the inflated and misleading information he posts if he keeps doing so. It isn't helpful to allow such false information to go unchallenged. And that is most of what people push back on.
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I appreciate your point of view too, but the rules of civility are not entirely subtle in their difference. I can see why he is pushing...he had official reason a million years ago and it sucks to get your hopes up then crushed. BUT this dude reinflated...yes...he grasps at every new scrap of hope. and yeah...he ignores arguements that don't acknowledge his points...i think we all can cop to that at sometimes. but...he is not rude. or a hater. he just wants something else included.
 
Grandpa Minion said:
anything that creates pvp opportunity is a good thing and 2.0 delivers.. no longer will players be able to run away to other bioms. Its most definately a pvp update. Sorry they gave pvp so much luv on this one instead of adding bandits the thing is a pvp update was long over due.
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They didn´t give PvP any love. This would have happened even if PvP wasn´t a thing in this game. This was not a PvP update. And you can still run to another biome and get killed by the biome threats tto steal the kill from the guy going after you. There, showed you how to abuse it. You are welcome. I mean how did you not think of that as a PvP player? I don´t even play PvP and it instantly came to my mind after reading your post, that this is how to deny kills.
 
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Throughout history many of the most significant and noteworthy advancements in medicine and technology have occurred by chance.
I am certain that this alpha was not their intention to create the finest PvP update that TFP has ever produced, yet in truth, it is.
Every PvP player I have conversed with during this alpha shares the same sentiment. Therefore, I extend my gratitude for this PvP update!
 
Roland said:
Eventually, The Fun Pimps will turn their attention to PvP. Since the beginning of this game's development the main focus of balance and features has been to make it a great single player or multiplayer cooperative experience. Early on before experience and quality was introduced the game could more easily be played either competitively or cooperatively. However, as development has progressed more and more the PvP players have suffered from design choices that seriously unbalance the PvP experience.

Madmole has said that there will be a separate mode for the game that will be dedicated to PvP play. The purpose of this thread is for people who enjoy and want the game to be more attuned to the PvP philosophy to weigh in on what changes would need to be made to the current game in order to make it better for PvP.

Please no arguments or discussions on PvE vs PvP or whether the game should be designed for PvP. Please don't invite people to "go play Rust or Counterstrike". Three facts I think we can all agree upon:

1) The game in its current state doesn't work well at all for PvP

2) The game has great potential to have a robust and excellent PvP mode

3) The devs have said that creating a PvP mode is planned

So lets start from this basis and not argue about the merits of PvP in this thread.

Items for discussion that I can think of are as follows (feel free to add new items that I did not consider)

1) Claim Block functionality

2) Player Progression and Experience

3) Skills and Perks

4) Armor and Weapons

5) Zombies

6) Loot Tables

7) Loot Quality

8) Airdrops

9) Scoreboards and Stats

10) Building and Demolition

11) Survival Elements

12) Game Types

13) Sound

14) Spawning
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The main problem with having PVP is not enough people. Especially on console, that can only currently have 4 players, you'd need to have at least 20+ players, since the map is so huge, even with the smallest map the odds of finding another player with no player tracking are 1 and 10,000, if that. There also needs to be good guns and not these rifles with no magazines, where you manually insert 1 bullet in the chamber, shoot and reload again.. I dunno why they added these 1 bullet rifles, they don't even sell em anymore today in real life (or at least none that i've seen in a gun shop, they had magazines).
 
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