"The PvP Update"

[Roland]

Eventually, The Fun Pimps will turn their attention to PvP. Since the beginning of this game's development the main focus of balance and features has been to make it a great single player or multiplayer cooperative experience. Early on before experience and quality was introduced the game could more easily be played either competitively or cooperatively. However, as development has progressed more and more the PvP players have suffered from design choices that seriously unbalance the PvP experience.

Madmole has said that there will be a separate mode for the game that will be dedicated to PvP play. The purpose of this thread is for people who enjoy and want the game to be more attuned to the PvP philosophy to weigh in on what changes would need to be made to the current game in order to make it better for PvP.

Please no arguments or discussions on PvE vs PvP or whether the game should be designed for PvP. Please don't invite people to "go play Rust or Counterstrike". Three facts I think we can all agree upon:

1) The game in its current state doesn't work well at all for PvP

2) The game has great potential to have a robust and excellent PvP mode

3) The devs have said that creating a PvP mode is planned

So lets start from this basis and not argue about the merits of PvP in this thread.

Items for discussion that I can think of are as follows (feel free to add new items that I did not consider)

1) Claim Block functionality

2) Player Progression and Experience

3) Skills and Perks

4) Armor and Weapons

5) Zombies

6) Loot Tables

7) Loot Quality

8) Airdrops

9) Scoreboards and Stats

10) Building and Demolition

11) Survival Elements

12) Game Types

13) Sound

14) Spawning

 

[Roland]

"The PvP Update"

Claim Block Options

• Offline setting so that griefing and assaulting your base cannot happen unless you are online to defend

• Allow claimed area to be saved so that if your base is destroyed you can restore it to the last time you saved it

• The LCB could teleport any unfriendly player away like the trader does when the owner is offline

• Dynamic Claim Modifier that gives new players more protection and seasoned players less.

• Claim blocks should be a lot more expensive to craft

• If a base is breached the rest becomes invulnerable to prevent total destruction(griefing) of the base

• No offline invulnerability as anti-player base design is possible through creativity and experience

• Only one invulnerable claim block that dynamically increases the protection as blocks are destroyed so that bases can be penetrated but not razed to the ground

• Multiple claim blocks are necessary because part of infiltrating a base is systematically finding and removing claim blocks and part of building is extending your protected zone by adding claim blocks

Player Progression and Experience

• Reduction of the vertical difference between maxed out character and new character

• Start players higher up the progression arc to cut out the lower end grind

• No change needed in progression as hard work and time should be rewarded

• Experience should be earned for killing zombies and players

• Wellness should be able to be gained faster

• Player progression should be sped up significantly

• Reinstate static player statistics and remove skills, perks, and progression

• Keep skills and perks but give limited points to allow for some differentiation/roles

Skills and Perks

• Disallow too much compounding of advantages that create an insurmountable progression gap between high level characters and low level characters

Armor and Weapons

• Weapon damage vs players should be reduced to allow for reaction time and epic duels and gun fights.

• Auto turrets as base defense when player is offline

Zombies

• Get rid of 7 day feral hordes or at least provide the option to disable them

Loot Tables

• Rebalanced to be truly random without regard to skills or perks

• Gun parts and whole guns should be found in a wider variety of loot containers

Loot Quality

• Remove leveled loot

Airdrops

• Should be announced in chat along with location

• Should take longer to open

• Short term advantage loot

Scoreboards and Stats

• Announcements of who killed whom by what means need to appear upon a player's death

• Points awarded and tracked for player kills

• Points awarded based on relative level/gamestage of the players involved

• Show all status bars and world information on the HUD

• Tool tips and/or tutorial quests to teach new players basic PvP strategies

Building and Demolition

• Faster gathering of resources ie getting more for harvesting blocks

• Time needed to destroy protected blocks needs to be balanced

• Explosives need to be rebalanced to make them worth using relative to pickaxes and augers

• Multiple players using tools vs one block needs to be fixed/balanced

• Rebalancing needed so fists aren't a better option than tools for demolition

• Faster(cheaper) building

• No change to building and resource harvesting as PvP players appreciate the work and effort needed for large bases

Survival Elements

• Mental health added to give buffs and debuffs for killing players of unequal levels

• Remove weather survival

Game Types

• There needs to be an option that allows for factions and ways to easily recognize friends vs enemies

• There needs to be the ability to take over and control territory

• Reinstate unlimited world size

• Capture the flag

• Faction race to achieve a goal

• Declaration of war to ensure faction vs faction instead of faction vs offline player(s)

• Smaller map size to prevent avoidance

• King of the Hill mode with teleporting pole/zone your faction must control

• Hunger games

Sound

• Optimized for being able to hear realistically. Hearing someone's stomach growling from far away is not good but at the same time not being able to hear gunshots from a long distance is no good.

• Reinstate different sound for opening creative menu

• Delete all huffing and puffing and groaning and hunger pain sounds from the game

• No change to hungry sounds as players can self regulate

Spawning

• Random spawn points to prevent prisons and camping

Administration

• Admins need to have options to be able to change all aspects of the above features and settings

• Admins need to be able to teleport and be invisible and invulnerable to players

• Admins need to be able to see through the eyes of players

 

[Gazz]

"The PvP Update"

How would the game have to be balanced to make PVP viable?

Broad strokes.

I'm no PVP player so while I can see the balance issues in the abstract, I am more of a neutral observer here. =)

Sound

As mentioned here recently it's really hard to sneak up on someone if your food level drops below 50% or so and your character has an orgasm that can be heard from half a kilometer away.

Hiding yourself or your base is equally hard for the same reason.

Keep in mind that the notion of hiding being the only defense can not be the base for everything. It is one aspect!

If it can be made sufficiently hard to break into bases, hiding would not be the only viable solution.

Offline raiding / griefing vs PVP

PVP in theory:

2-5 players have an exciting time of hide and seek or assaulting someone's base.
PVP in practice:

You log in and your base has been reduced to rubble.
Every. Single. Day.

Ark has turrets and NPC (dinosaurs) and 99% of the PVP in that game looks like... you log in and your base has been reduced to rubble (and all your dinos killed).

Can NPC and turrets defend a base while the player is offline or will having turrets and NPC only increase the impact of griefing on the victim because he also has to rebuild turrets and find/hire NPC again?

I talked to MM about this and he does not consider a separate (and working) offline claim protection a necessity. Is that so?

(previous claim stone topic: here)

On the 4 or 5 PVP servers were I asked no one even knew if "offline claim protection" actually worked. (as in having a higher x than when online)

Loss and recovering from it

Okay, so you got raided and you respawn around the central hub in your undies.

Spawn spots are static so on an "established" PVP server with an "alpha tribe" you now log into the steel cages built around all the newbie spawn spots and would have to knock down the wall with your fists.

With only 2 layers you have to destroy 4 blocks for a total of 13 RL hours of punching.

You would of course starve to death and respawn in a different cage several times before you had a chance to get out of one such spot.

Oh, and before you laugh it off as a "no one would ever do that"... I logged into a PVP server, looked up, and saw this:



Land claimed, naturally. I am not making this up...

But let's say you are dedicated enough to this particular server to not quit but instead invest a few RL days to get back out of the starter cages and that the alpha tribe is terribly neglect about maintaining their cages.

Ideally you have caches of gear hidden away but let's say they were found as well.

On a PVE server where people build awesome bases instead of trying to cave each other's heads in the resource balance works well enough.

On a PVP server... should you harvest resources faster?

I'm not talking about digging faster - but instead of getting 25 rocks and 2 iron from a stone block you might get 100 rocks and 8 iron from the same block.

If fighting players is supposed to be a substantial part of the game, base building / repair and resource harvesting needs to adjust.

Explosives / Rockets

On a PVE server, some players use TNT for mining / excavating which is no problem whatsoever.

I tried asking around on a few PVP servers today but that was a complete waste of time. No one knows ♥♥♥♥. I got a few guesses and opinions and zero usable data.

On a PVP server... how well do rockets and dynamite work?

How many of each do you need to get through an iron / vault door or open a chest?

Does it matter which block (upper/lower/before) of a door you target?

Time management

How long in RL units should it take to knock down a steel block or door?

Right now tools and skills are really powerful.

Near 400 DPS for a steel pick so with a x8 modifier, a steel block lasts 5 minutes, a vault door 8 minutes.

Does anyone actually do that or does everyone use explosives? (see above)

Blocks like "stone" have a

<property name="LPHardnessScale" value="2" />

If it works as designed (did not test it myself) then a stone block only has a 2x claim modifier instead of whatever the server setting is.

With a steel pick that's two hits tops so the most obvious way to attack someone's base would be to undermine it and let it collapse instead of going through the much harder front door.

Or am I missing something?

Naturally that doesn't count bedrock bases but should it be a requirement to build at bedrock to avoid this cheesy tactic?

 

[Lightgemini]

Offline raidings are actually a sort of tower defense mode were you play on the attacking side. Thats not PvP. Pvp requires players in oposing forces fighting each other. Since any defense will always be beaten with the use of the proper force, going the turrets/traps or npc route is pointless.

I suggest an offline block to render bases invulnerable 100%, like claim blocks did many alphas ago. If you want raiding the base owner should at least be online, or if its a faction then any member be online.

Any issue with possible exploits or abandoned bases can be handled by server admins.

 

[SittingDuck]

My main question is, what do you want to do in PVP?

Shoot other guys... ok first my main Problem with that is, that more guys close to each other cause lag that makes serious combat a little bit bad. And can you identify who is who?

But honestly, any good shooter ist better at that than

7 days because it´s their focus... so that can´t be the main goal.

Robbing other guys bases... been there done that... ok but does not thrill me that much.

I would like PVP missions... along with npcs and factions, there could be global goals for each faction, and fight more faction vs. faction.

 

[combat_wombat]

My main question is, what do you want to do in PVP? Shoot other guys... ok first my main Problem with that is, that more guys close to each other cause lag that makes serious combat a little bit bad. And can you identify who is who?

But honestly, any good shooter ist better at that than

7 days because it´s their focus... so that can´t be the main goal.

Robbing other guys bases... been there done that... ok but does not thrill me that much.

I would like PVP missions... along with npcs and factions, there could be global goals for each faction, and fight more faction vs. faction.

We definitely need a faction system. Some kind of territory control game. Right now, pvp in this game suffers from the same stigma as every other survival pvp game. I like to call it TRS, the rust syndrome. Kill on sight with the friends you bring with you and don't bother interacting in any other way. Now, if we were restricted to a certain number of NPCs vs actual player faction members for example, then people would be inspired to go out there and meet new people instead of shooting new people. Survival games in general seem to be treating pvp like it's call of duty. Shallow experience. If pvp were about rebuilding civilization instead of just shooting individual survivors it would be much more interesting. You would have territory wars over good loot spots. But instead we have KOS stuff wherein you find someone's base and destroy it, or if the owner is online, plop down a mobile spawn point and keep coming back because the only viable tactic is to decrease enemy wellness until they don't want to play anymore.

I personally wouldn't even bother balancing for the type of KOS pvp. It's a waste of time. Call of Duty and those sorts do it much better. I would try to develop a deeper pvp experience. One in which whole factions intimidate, fight or diplomacy their way through conflicts with other large groups. You know, kind of like how it would be in real life.

Star made does this exact thing pretty amazingly. They have a section of their forums for faction level diplomacy and many factions use it. They have faction diplomacy between servers even. It's not uncommon for a faction to start a war and have other factions from other servers jump over and fight. It's almost like all the servers are part of one big universe. It is extremely cool and if something like that were implemented here I think it would lead to some pretty amazing pvp experiences.

 

[HAL9000]

For offline griefing / base raiding I still think my editor has the best system which is to allow players to save the area in their landclaims and have periodic cooldown (say 6 hours or something configurable in the XML) for restoring it.

So you build your epic fortress or your mansion, you save the area and log off. When you come back the next day and it's reduced to rubble you can just load it back from the save.

Items aren't restored so there's still a cost to being raided but you don't have to start from scratch every time someone comes and knocks everything down.

You get the benefits of:

1) It's FUN to take on a base's defences and try and beat them (especially if we get turrets/npcs to guard too). The attacker has fun but not at the expense of the builder. Having infinite durability would just lessen the options for players.

2) Builders who might like to attack someone but would feel bad about wrecking a base can now go nuts knowing it's not spoiling someones fun

3) Cheaters aren't ever going to go away with this game. So if you can't get rid of them at least you can make all their "hard work" mean nothing (and doing it in front of them when they've just spent 20 minutes destroying everything just to have it pop back into existence is quite rewarding). Trolls do it for the reaction, if you remove the "oh no I've lost everything!" they soon get bored.

4) The code is already in the game because of the prefab files so it's quick to implement

5) Server admins have copies of everyone's bases that can be used to move from alpha to alpha or in case of world corruption / deletion

6) Glitches with the SI can be mitigated so if placing that final hay bale causes your entire base to collapse you can recover from it quickly

For an idea of what it's like my

back in Alpha 9 was a demo

 

[lazerblade01]

One thing that may help with the PvP grief - at least in regards to spawning in and spawn camping and such, is to maybe provide the option to spawn anywhere on the map as a selection, prior to loading into the map. Sort of like the spawn on bedroll / spawn near bedroll option, except you can manually spawn (some of the server managers allow teleporting, so it wouldn't be hard to implement).

Something else that may help with being robbed and homeless is to beef up the LCB in a minimal radius - like 3 blocks - where nobody can enter that radius except the LCB owner. It could allow for a bedroll that can't be destroyed, a single chest or 2 chests / boxes, and the LCB. Might not help much if SI causes the area to fall, but could also disable SI within this sphere. Not sure how well it'd work.

HAL's fixes would work well too, but I think having the option to avoid spawning on or near your bedroll when it's hot would be helpful.

 

[Gamida]

.....Pvp requires players in oposing forces fighting each other........

I have never played PvP.....I may never play PvP. My opinion may not even count on this subject because of this.

I will say it though. I agree with the above part...to me the P's in PvP is the important part Player(s) vs Player(s)

It seems to me to be more sense to do it like the Bartertown Wars did it....have some factions compete against each other with both side starting off relatively equal. Beating someone who is not even online or is so far below your level that they don't even offer a hint of a challenge wouldn't seem that much fun to me...........if I played PvP ofc

 

[Gazz]

If everyone started at ground zero that could be potentially interesting -- but logging onto an established server where you have a grey quality bow with stone arrows while everyone else is running around in Iron Armor and has purple Crossbows/Hunting Rifles or better?

IMO that is a big part of the problem.

There is so much vertical progression in the game that it would never pass muster in a PVP game.

There is a damage factor of 5 between "no skill and crappy weapons" and "max skill and top weapons" and if you factor in armor and high wellness it's over 20.

You can tell me about "player skill" whatever you want but if I do 20x as much relative damage then I'll win that "fight".

If I was told to rebalance the game for PVP I would have to create a different balance.

• You get XP for killing zombies but not for players. You get ego points for doing the latter...
   
   
  
• All skills like Heavy Armor, Mining Tools, or Rifles go straight out the window.
  There will be no grinding skill.
   
   
  
• You can buy perks from skill points but they dont have as much punch, either. No 2x damage modifier.
  Maybe +30% is manageable.
   
   
  
• Weapons and parts retain QL but a QL 1 part does not have 40% but 66% of a QL 600 parts' stats.
  

Much less "progression" and therefore a far more level playing field but you can still do all the things you do in the vanilla (PVE) game - with the exception of watching skill numbers go up.

 

[Aurelius]

EVE Online has handled a lot of PVP issues in interesting ways; you may want to look into their game mechanics Gazz. Mind you, CCP is handling 15-40k users online all at once in one "universe" so it has vastly different scope and scaling than what 7DTD does. But here are some highlights which may (or may not) encourage you to investigate further.

1. They have designated zones where non-consensual pvp has severe repercussions to the aggressor. If you attack someone in one of these areas (high-sec) you are obliterated by the NPC police and lose faction standing. No where is truly safe, but there are consequences for breaking the law.

2. At the other end of the spectrum they have zones where it's lawless (null-sec) or the law is established by the local community players who have control of those zones. No game mechanics exist for consequences to unsolicited aggression in these areas.

3. They are able to significantly mitigate old player vs. new player skill discrepancies through increasing skill by time as opposed to activity. Meaning a player who chooses to start training "Sniper Rifles" right out of the gate can be at max effectiveness with it after a given period of time has passed no matter what they do or don't do. The only advantage older characters have over newer ones is breadth of skills and accumulation of stuff. With that said, this forces new characters to specialize into niche roles (scout, e-war pilot, etc.) which doesn't exist in 7DTD.

4. Regarding bases, they have implemented a cool down period where after a base has been almost knocked out it becomes invulnerable for 24 hours. This gives the defender time to muster forces and prepare for a defensive siege or counter attack. After the timer has expired, the attackers can continue destroying the base.

(Note - it's been awhile since I last played EVE, so the mechanics may have changed since then...)

-A

 

[pregnable]

IMO that is a big part of the problem.
There is so much vertical progression in the game that it would never pass muster in a PVP game.

There is a damage factor of 5 between "no skill and crappy weapons" and "max skill and top weapons" and if you factor in armor and high wellness it's over 20.

You can tell me about "player skill" whatever you want but if I do 20x as much relative damage then I'll win that "fight".

If I was told to rebalance the game for PVP I would have to create a different balance.

• You get XP for killing zombies but not for players. You get ego points for doing the latter...
   
   
  
• All skills like Heavy Armor, Mining Tools, or Rifles go straight out the window.
  There will be no grinding skill.
   
   
  
• You can buy perks from skill points but they dont have as much punch, either. No 2x damage modifier.
  Maybe +30% is manageable.
   
   
  
• Weapons and parts retain QL but a QL 1 part does not have 40% but 66% of a QL 600 parts' stats.
  

Much less "progression" and therefore a far more level playing field but you can still do all the things you do in the vanilla (PVE) game - with the exception of watching skill numbers go up.

Actually, I would not mind seeing the vertical progression reduced in general. I do not really think the skills and quality need to make that big of a difference.

You could try and balance perks to result in different play styles, instead of just making the player stronger.

Since you can actually hide in this game, unlike rust, random respawns and land claims are probably good enough for it to function. Renewable resources would be a good idea too.

A lot will probably depend on how NPCs and bandits work though. Will larger bases with loud turrets and defenses attract more hordes?

If you are making different pvp modes, there are so many ways you could go with this game heh. You could totally recreate a game like Savage, or a MOBA, along with factions, and maybe even a zombie faction. There could be defended faction town starting points.

 

[playlessNamer]

I suggest this a long time ago allready:

The idea is based on the mental state of the character. Living in a zombieapocalypse can drain your mental condition. Seeing friends die, get beaten or die by zeds, long time no good food, scrappy clothings,...

In PvP apocalypse you have to kill humans from time to time, this has massive impact on your mental condition.

1. killing a naked Lv.1 players makes your char feels like a a.hole and gives him pangs of remorse.

2. killing a players same or higher level has still decent noticeable impact.

3. when you get shot first then its always self-defence without any punishment.

So the player has to decide if its worth to kill another player based on his level he look like. You know you get the punishment anyway but ponder if its worth the loot.

The mental state couldt give buffs and debuffs over days/weeks, marking you as a killer and let other player hear your steps louder or at latest mark you on the minimap. There is a difference between just PvP players and pure Ego-Shooter players in this game. Some ppl shoot on everything thats moves and some think about if they kill or not, using ingame voice and such things.

As secondary and this is extreme important: Reduce the damage dealt from player to player by 75% or more. The fights are way to fast to give both players a chance, a reaction time, a chance to run away and flee or at least every players has to hit some more shots what brings skill into it. Even the Guns and Armor are more important and little differences can decide it after 15-20 hits.

The movement, the moment of reloading, the positioning and the aiming while evading hits,... that makes all no sense when the fight takes 1-3 seconds.

Players are like Heros in this game and zombies are just creeps. Fighting a player should always be a epic fight or least anyway a fight. Sometimes you loose everything you have to a death, this must be more worth.

Getting a headshot while standing still with open inventory is bllsht! Maybe give 50% damagereduction when your inventory is open, you are standing still anyway.

Raiding a base is a hard topic. In my opinion the base, the creative build of a player is untouchable but its a interesting part of the game wich is sadly not proper supported with more defenses, turrets and some alternatives to spikes and pits.

There are options:

low claimhealth: easy to raid everything

medium: the same like low but it takes some hours and many players have to much time.

high: it takes 1-2 complete reallife day with some mates hitting, hitting, hitting, repairing axe, hitting, hitting, hitting, repairing axe, hitting, hitting, hitting, repairing axe,.. this is no gameplay in my opinion and should not be supported by the game. Dont mislead players to do such things.

over high till untouchable: Deaktivates the raiding feature and take the PvP out to the streets/towns. Additionally you can take a rest from PvP in your base.

Baseraiding is nothing more than hitting endless amounts of time to blocks and doors. There is no gameplay included, no brain, no game, nothing, ... just hitting thousands over thousands of block hp down. Think about this pls, this is no gameplay! This is putting a weight on your left mousebutton and go afk or at least switch your brain off meanwhile raiding or it couldt be damaged eventually!

 

[bloom_meister]

Raiding a base is a hard topic. In my opinion the base, the creative build of a player is untouchable but its a interesting part of the game wich is sadly not proper supported with more defenses, turrets and some alternatives to spikes and pits.
There are options:

low claimhealth: easy to raid everything

medium: the same like low but it takes some hours and many players have to much time.

high: it takes 1-2 complete reallife day with some mates hitting, hitting, hitting, repairing axe, hitting, hitting, hitting, repairing axe, hitting, hitting, hitting, repairing axe,.. this is no gameplay in my opinion and should not be supported by the game. Dont mislead players to do such things.

over high till untouchable: Deaktivates the raiding feature and take the PvP out to the streets/towns. Additionally you can take a rest from PvP in your base.

Baseraiding is nothing more than hitting endless amounts of time to blocks and doors. There is no gameplay included, no brain, no game, nothing, ... just hitting thousands over thousands of block hp down. Think about this pls, this is no gameplay! This is putting a weight on your left mousebutton and go afk or at least switch your brain off meanwhile raiding or it couldt be damaged eventually!

You are quite obviously harbouring some grudges after being raided in the past and you know nothing about raiding yourself which is apparent by your last sentence above.

Things to consider when going to raid a base;

1. Do we need to build a staging base, where should we put our bags down

2. Do we need to go underground as the base has excellent above ground vantage points

3. Do we know who the owner/s are

4. Do we check to see if anyone is home, if they are, what are our options

5. Do we take our best tools and gear on servers where you will lose them if you die, this is often difficult call

6. Do the owners have allies and are they close by

7. Is the server really busy and are we likely to be interrupted, if so what do we do about it

8. How many people can we take, if multiple then what are their roles (lookout, back guard, miners)

9. Do we have an idea of the layout judging from the external design

10. Should we try and locate the claims and remove them or just try and find their loot

11. Where are the owners sleeping bags, important to get these first to make the rest of the raid easier once we kill them

Those are just off the top of my head, there are many more considerations and just because YOU dont like raiding does not mean it involves no gameplay.

 

[playlessNamer]

You are quite obviously harbouring some grudges after being raided in the past and you know nothing about raiding yourself which is apparent by your last sentence above.
Things to consider when going to raid a base;

1. Do we need to build a staging base, where should we put our bags down

2. Do we need to go underground as the base has excellent above ground vantage points

3. Do we know who the owner/s are

4. Do we check to see if anyone is home, if they are, what are our options

5. Do we take our best tools and gear on servers where you will lose them if you die, this is often difficult call

6. Do the owners have allies and are they close by

7. Is the server really busy and are we likely to be interrupted, if so what do we do about it

8. How many people can we take, if multiple then what are their roles (lookout, back guard, miners)

9. Do we have an idea of the layout judging from the external design

10. Should we try and locate the claims and remove them or just try and find their loot

11. Where are the owners sleeping bags, important to get these first to make the rest of the raid easier once we kill them

Those are just off the top of my head, there are many more considerations and just because YOU dont like raiding does not mean it involves no gameplay.

I was getting raided and i raided several bases (its not about beeing pis.ed about anything) but you are interpreting way to much into it. 90% is just to wait them to go offline, ye you should know who lives there to see when they are offline, thats no gameplay, and then you take for sure the most likely efficient way (not really gameplay too) then its just the claimhealthmodifier/time to break in. Usually you know allready exactly before when players usually go offline because they have a job or other life and leave the server every day at this time.

The only option is claimhealth 4 (useless), 8 (useless), 24 (useless, just hours), 40+ (getting started be usefull but allready close to impossible for humans with a life/brain)

The rest of the "gameplay" you list is just in the imagination or at least very unlikely. There is nothing to know about it expect the 3-4 obvious things. Reminds me of some DayZ player stealthing around every corner like James Bond in Mission Impossible even there is no one other in 10km range but he feels like a superagent stealthy imba player.

For me, i raided several bases and the longest one took about 12 hours with 3 mates. Wasnt even fun once and will for sure never ever do it again, not even on drugs and the game should not support this.

Turn raiding on with a 10-24 multiplier or turn it off. End of the story. Thinking about claimheathsettings is waste of time. Game doesnt support it and living underground like a rat... is this funny? Getting found by glitch only?

Hitting a block 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1hour, and more.... seriously? Pls remove from game, makes the game look really bad!

 

[bloom_meister]

I was getting raided and i raided several bases (its not about beeing pis.ed about anything) but you are interpreting way to much into it. 90% is just to wait them to go offline, ye you should know who lives there to see when they are offline, thats no gameplay, and then you take for sure the most likely efficient way (not really gameplay too) then its just the claimhealthmodifier/time to break in. Usually you know allready exactly before when players usually go offline because they have a job or other life and leave the server every day at this time.
The only option is claimhealth 4 (useless), 8 (useless), 24 (useless, just hours), 40+ (getting started be usefull but allready close to impossible for humans with a life/brain)

The rest of the "gameplay" you list is just in the imagination or at least very unlikely. There is nothing to know about it expect the 3-4 obvious things. Reminds me of some DayZ player stealthing around every corner like James Bond in Mission Impossible even there is no one other in 10km range but he feels like a superagent stealthy imba player.

For me, i raided several bases and the longest one took about 12 hours with 3 mates. Wasnt even fun once and will for sure never ever do it again, not even on drugs and the game should not support this.

Turn raiding on with a 10-24 multiplier or turn it off. End of the story. Thinking about claimheathsettings is waste of time. Game doesnt support it and living underground like a rat... is this funny? Getting found by glitch only?

Hitting a block 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1hour, and more.... seriously? Pls remove from game, makes the game look really bad!

disagree entirely and btw we raid at x64 protection and its a good balance between hard and rewarding.

 

[thomtree]

Hello Gazz,

I’m writing this on behalf of the players and the admin from nopainnogaincommunity.de,the most active pvp server according to the gametracker website. We are glad, that the pvp aspect is finally getting more attention.

We have gathered information from our players and admin, regarding the points you mentioned and suggestions we have, so people to enjoy the pvp aspect of 7d2d more.

The most important aspect of a server is the admin.

He is the one, who defines the rules and the settings, which in turn define if the server is for beginners, advanced gamers or pro’s.

As every server is different and players have different levels of game experience, it is impossible to define a clear set of data, to suit everyone’s needs. On a pvp server, experience is one of the most crucial points, when talking about base building, scouting, raiding, recovery, etc.

We’ll first address the points you made in your posts and then offer some of our own thoughts, experiences and data.

Sound

Sound Bugs

It is of utmost importance to fix the still existing sound bugs of the AK 47 and the Auger.

When sneaking around (or inside) an enemy base, switching to the AK will cause a loud shooting sound, which instantly makes the base owner aware of intruders.

The auger on the other hand makes a constant augering sound after being used for a short while. This sound stays even when not augering or switching to a weapon / other tool. The base owner can easily locate the intruder by that continuous auger sound.

Stomach Growl

The growling of the stomach is a good feature to remind the player to eat but we perceive it as too loud. It should not be possible to hear it as far as it currently can be heard. Also, any experienced player will not go to a raid, while starving. On the other hand, no player who has a base should be starving in it, as he can gather large amounts of food in a small time period, either by growing crops in underground or tower gardens or spend some time hunting and setting up a stock of provisions.

Sound Distance

Arguably the most pressing issue regarding sound is the distance it can be heard at. This used to be extremely far (Pickaxes could be heard at 7km for example). There is still some lack of realism, as the pickaxe or stone axe sounds can be heard further, than those of explosions for instance.

We suggest to create different sound categories like: explosions, tools, motorized tools, firearms, chests, walking, etc. and to give each of them a certain sound range. This sound range should easily be editable by the admin, so if he believes a sound to travel too far or not far enough, he can change it by changing a number in the server settings.

Suggestions for base values:

• Explosions: 3km
  
• Firearms: 2km
  
• Motorized tools: 1,5km
  
• Tools: 800m
  
• Chests, walking, safes: 300m
  

Offline Raiding

Auto Turrets

Auto turrets are a cool idea and have already been implemented by the modding community. If these are going to be implemented in the main game as well, they must work properly.

They have to recognize owner, friends and enemies and they should not be fooled easily.

If auto turrets were to be used on a pvp server to protect a base, I as a raider would simply find out their range, place a bedroll right at the border and let them shoot me & respawn until their ammo is used up. Perhaps even hiding behind a rock might make the turret waste it’s ammo.

We believe auto turrets to be a good idea, but they have to do their job properly.

Griefing

You mentioned your experience of logging back into the server and finding your base reduced to rubble.

Some admins allow this kind of action, though it is not allowed on our server and so far it has proven to be a good rule to not allow griefing. Destroying what’s neccessary to get into a base, at chests and keystones and get back out is fine. Making parts of a base collapse or even destroying the entire base is pointless in our eyes. We have seen servers been raided empty by the alpha team before. Players who had their base destroyed tend to leave the server, as they are pissed off and have to start all over again, so they may as well go to another server for it.

As someone who raids alot, I made the experience that it is better to steal everything from a base, but leave it as whole as possible, so the owner can build himself up again. That way, I can raid that base again later on and the owner can learn from having been raided and improve his defenses.

When it comes to griefing, it is also very important to have an active admin, who checks the raids and ensures everything is going according to the rules. If the admin is not online, a bot can be used to record what is happening on the server, so if there are any complains, the admin can retrace the steps the raiders took.

Offline Raiding

Offline raiding is most of all a trade of resources (materials and time) and a pinch of psychological warfare (lots of empty safes, hidden chests, fake rooms, traps, etc.) Both raiding and raid protection are arts in and of themselves. It is not merely augering blocks for hours on end. Here again, experience comes into play on both sides. This experience can only be obtained by raiding / getting raided many times and learning from the mistakes.

Dynamic Claim Modifier

It might be worth thinking about implementing dynamic claim modifiers (DCM) though, as it is very easy for high-end raiders to get into a new player’s base. The DCM could make the claim protection extremely high (for example x200) within the first few days and have it gradually reduce to the server’s standard claim protection setting. This way, it is extremely costly to raid a noob base, however the noob is under time pressure to make his base safe.

The DCM should be optional and the extra claim protection and the duration should be changable by the admin in the server settings.

Different Claim Blocks

Another idea in regards to claims is to have several different claim blocks, with different ranges. Obviously the greater the range, the more expensive the claim block has to be. Again, this should be an option for the admin to choose. If he does not want to use it, he can simply not tick the box in the server settings and use the current system.

Offline Claim Protection

It is not surprising, that most players you talked to didn’t know about the offline claim protection, as it does not work. The idea is good but if you intend to implement this feature in future builds, please make it work.

Loss and recovery

Random Spawn Points

The current system of fixed spawn points leads to the problem you encountered. People will either put spikes or cages at the spawn points. The logical conclusion is to have truely random spawn points rather than a set of fixed ones.

It has to be noted though, that cages, spikes, etc. at spawn points are considered griefing on our server and are punishable by ban. Therefore it is a matter of the admin and the server policy again.

We recommend you getting in touch with Smegz0r on steam. He has a bot that has a very good system of setting up random spawn points.

The radius of the spawn points should also be adjustable by the admin in the server settings.

Harvest Multiplier

We like the idea of a harvest multiplier, though this should also not be fixed, as it plays a direct role in the difficulty of the server. Make it optional and adjustable by the admin as well please.

Explosives and rockets

As you are interested in player experience concerning rockets and explosives, we gathered some data for you.

Our server runs with a 32x multiplier and we tested everything at highest skills, highest quality and used double reinforced vault doors as our test objects. We also modified the auger, so it deteriorates 5x slower, as the standard setting renders the auger useless. A raider would have to carry an entire inventory of repair kits into a raid, which is dropped on death on our server.

The auger deals 5 dmg per hit, which means it takes around 20 minutes to break down the vault door.

The pickaxe deals 18 dmg per hit, but as the hits come in a much less rapid succession than those of the auger, it takes around 35 minutes to break down the vault door.

This is where the first problem arises, as there is still a bug when using more than one auger on the door (or any other block). The second auger tends to “repair” some of the damage the first auger made. We believe this to be due to the rapid hits that the auger does. Therefore, 4 augers break down a door much slower than 4 pickaxes do. Not to mention the auger sound bug, which usually causes players to lower their in game sound to zero.

The rocket launcher deals 18 dmg per hit and is therefore just as strong as a single pickaxe hit. This renders the rocket launcher useless on our server settings. The same goes for dynamite. As TNT can not be placed in claimed territory, it is out of the question.

As there are currently no effective explosives, we introduced a new kind of dynamite called Raid-Dynamite. The specs are:

• Range: 3
  
• Damage (block): 9000 (xml value)
  
• Damage (entity): 50
  
• Damage on claimed blocks: 564
  
• Costs: 2 plant fiber, 20 paper, 2 ducttape, 100 gun powder
  

Using Raid-Dynamite, you can break down formerly mentioned vault door with 43-44 sticks of Raid-Dynamite.

Additionally Raid-Rockets could be introduced but we have not done that so far. They would have to be half as strong as Raid-Dynamite and would cost twice as much gun powder as normal rockets, plus 4 ducttape.

Part 2 in Next Post

 

[thomtree]

Part 2

Additionally Raid-Rockets could be introduced but we have not done that so far. They would have to be half as strong as Raid-Dynamite and would cost twice as much gun powder as normal rockets, plus 4 ducttape.

Time Management

Tools

Tools are currently strong enough in our opinion. The problem is, as mentioned before, that x>1 pickaxes are faster in destroying a block than x>1 augers. This has to be fixed.

Raid Time

It is perfectly normal to spend alot of time destroying claimed blocks. It may seem like a pain for someone who does not raid on a daily basis, but you get used to it and it does give the base owner time to defend.

Block Multiplier

In order to make time management more individual on servers, blocks could be grouped and be given a multiplier, which the admin can change from the standard value. Blocks could be grouped into:

• Voxelblocks
  
• Wood
  
• Concrete / Steel
  
• Esthetics (Adobe, Cobblestone, Flagstone, etc.)
  
• Scrapiron
  

OP due to skills and quality

Currently weapons deal 200% damage and armor absorbs 200% damage when the relevant skills and quality are at maximum value. This makes it virtually impossible for a new player to kill a high-end player. If the values would be reduced, all high-end players would be unhappy and not invest time into skilling anymore, as it wouldn’t make a notable difference and any noob can kill them. Everyone has a different opinion about this.

To solve the issue we suggest to introduce a multiplier for the boost quality and skills give. This multiplier has to be adjustable by the admin in the server settings. This way, every server can fine tune the settings and make it as easy or difficult as they want. Like before, the relevant items could also be assigned to groups, to make adjustments easier for the admin.


Part 3 Next Post

- - - Updated - - -

Part 3

Our ideas




Chat feedback for pvp kills

We would like to have the feature back, where it says Player X killed Player Y in chat. PvP Players are very aware of their reputation and love for everyone to see, when they kill someone. This is also a demoralisation aspect during raids.

Score System

Currently points are mainly awarded for killing zombies. We’d welcome it, if player kills would also be rewarded with points. To make this a little more interesting, a system could be created, which awards more points for killing players who have a higher level than oneself and the other way round.

FPS Drops

Until this day, FPS drop drastically when other players are near oneself. This makes PvP fights increasingly difficult and annoying.

Bulletproof Glass

We created a modified copy of the business glass block called bulletproof glass. It has 9000 hitpoints (like reinforced concrete). It costs 50 lead (in forge, not scrap), 200 molten glass and 5 clay.

This new block offers tons of new tactical options in base building and PvP. You can actually see who is behind a door by integrating bulletproof glass blocks in your base design, without having to worry about getting shot through it, like it is the case with iron bars.

We’d love for this block to make it into the set of standard game blocks. It would be great, if all block types (pillars, ramps, etc.) that exist for concrete, would also be made for bulletproof glass.

The only issue is, that when building with completely see-through blocks, the preview of the block (just before placing it) can hardly be seen at all, so it is difficult to rotate ramps etc. in the desired position. Perhaps it is possible to have the block more visible in the preview?!

Embrasures

Embrasure blocks would be great, especially for PvP servers. Embrasures are currently created by putting two ramp blocks on top of each other, to create a slit between them. It would be nice to have a single block that does the job. Perhaps have ½ and ¼ size versions of it as well.

Alarms

Another idea we had to increase base security is to have alarm blocks. This could be a pressure plate landmine, which doesn’t explode but upon activation causes a loud tone and the smoke of an airdrop to appear. This instantly alerts the base owner, that an intruder (or zombie) is heading his way.

Tools Damage vs Different Materials

We noticed that different tools do not deal different damage on different materials in claimed territory. A fireaxe for instance makes 1 dmg to a claimed wooden chest. Fists also make 1 dmg to said chest. Therefore it is faster to open a claimed wooden chest with your fists than with a fireaxe. This has to be fixed.

Enemy Marker

Like in other games, we’d like 7d2d to have a hotkey that marks enemies when they are in the player’s crosshair. Marking them could make a little marker hover above them, that can be seen by the player and his friends for a short duration of time (20 seconds for example).

Especially during PvP matches with loads of players, it can get confusing who is who and friendly fire is a constant issue. This feature would make scouting players and their behaviour alot better.

Map Marker Description

Map markers are awesome but unfortunately there are too few characters for the description. On a PvP server I’d like to be able to set a marker on an enemy base and write the names of the players who live in that base into the marker description. This is currently not possible.

Weapon Damage Decoupling

Currently weapon damage is directly coupled to the difficulty setting of a server. It would be great to have the option to remove the coupling and set weapon damage modifiers individually for explosives, firearms, melee weapons, etc. Also a modifier for block damage and entity damage would be great. This helps fine tuning the server to the desired difficulty.

Clipping bugs

All still existing clipping bugs have to be fixed. There is no point in having an underground base, if someone can see through faulty map textures.

Server update pre-release

The update for servers should be launched a few hours before the client updates are launched, so server admins have enough time to update their servers and implement all xml changes etc.

Craftable oil

As the augers require rather large amounts of repair kits now when raiding, we made oil craftable on our server. It costs 100 oil shale to make 1 oil.

Backpack drop on quit

When players log out and server settings are set to drop inventory on quit, the drop can be circumvented by closing the process structure of 7d2d in task manager.

Admin Teleport Animation

Animation has to be removed and admin should be able to teleport to a given user via the player list. Admin needs to have invisible mode to spy on users.

There should also be a player cam, so the admin can view through the eyes of the player, what the player is doing. This makes it much easier to spot cheaters or glitch users.

God Mode

God mode doesnt work. It enables you as the admin to fly through blocks, but it does not make you invulnerable.

Item Description

Item description for newly made items does not get sent to other players on the server. They still see the standard description of the original item.

Conclusion

When asking 3 players you get 5 opinions. That’s normal. Everyone has different preferances and we will not find a one-fits-all setting.

In conclusion we can say that the most important issue is to give server admins as many adjustments as possible, so they can fine-tune their servers and make them just as difficult / easy, noob / pro friendly, etc. as they like.

We would like to take this opportunity to invite you, Gazz, to our server, so you can take a look at what we believe to be (and our active community prooves us right) a good PvP server.

You are also welcome to visit us on teamspeak: ts3.nopainnogaincommunity.de

 

[Gazz]

Ahh, finally some useful feedback. =)

Dynamic Claim Modifier
It might be worth thinking about implementing dynamic claim modifiers (DCM) though, as it is very easy for high-end raiders to get into a new player’s base. The DCM could make the claim protection extremely high (for example x200) within the first few days and have it gradually reduce to the server’s standard claim protection setting. This way, it is extremely costly to raid a noob base, however the noob is under time pressure to make his base safe.

The DCM should be optional and the extra claim protection and the duration should be changable by the admin in the server settings.

I believe that in the "Land claim" thread I (or someone else) had a concept of the claim modifier dynamically increasing as you do damage to the base.

That would encourage "surgical" raiding and protect from total devastation. In theory...

Additionally Raid-Rockets could be introduced but we have not done that so far. They would have to be half as strong as Raid-Dynamite and would cost twice as much gun powder as normal rockets, plus 4 ducttape.

This could essentially be HEAT vs HE rockets.

The HE has a decent radius and is effective against zombies and to some degree against blocks.

The HEAT has it's explosion mostly for show but does direct damage on impact... a lot of damage.

The latter would be your "raid" rocket... or for killing ferals and cops with direct hits of this anti-tank warhead. LOL

Another idea we had to increase base security is to have alarm blocks. This could be a pressure plate landmine, which doesn’t explode but upon activation causes a loud tone and the smoke of an airdrop to appear. This instantly alerts the base owner, that an intruder (or zombie) is heading his way.

The technology for that already exists.

Remember those unlootable trash bits on roads or in abandoned houses?

They make a sound when stepped on.

Item Description
Item description for newly made items does not get sent to other players on the server. They still see the standard description of the original item.

Yes, it's not pushed but atm it's not a priority feature. It will be when mod support is tackled...

 

[Poojam]

IMO that is a big part of the problem.
There is so much vertical progression in the game that it would never pass muster in a PVP game.

There is a damage factor of 5 between "no skill and crappy weapons" and "max skill and top weapons" and if you factor in armor and high wellness it's over 20.

You can tell me about "player skill" whatever you want but if I do 20x as much relative damage then I'll win that "fight".

If I was told to rebalance the game for PVP I would have to create a different balance.

• You get XP for killing zombies but not for players. You get ego points for doing the latter...
   
   
  
• All skills like Heavy Armor, Mining Tools, or Rifles go straight out the window.
  There will be no grinding skill.
   
   
  
• You can buy perks from skill points but they dont have as much punch, either. No 2x damage modifier.
  Maybe +30% is manageable.
   
   
  
• Weapons and parts retain QL but a QL 1 part does not have 40% but 66% of a QL 600 parts' stats.
  

Much less "progression" and therefore a far more level playing field but you can still do all the things you do in the vanilla (PVE) game - with the exception of watching skill numbers go up.

You are heading in the right direction. It's a diverse realm with a lot of different opinions on how "hardcore" you get. I've played on 4x hardcore (no rules) servers that were a ton of fun. These servers lead to a unique playstyle where most people hide their bases, unclaimed. The protection is so low, that you really just reveal yourself if you claim things. It's far more common for someone to come by punching grass and get a ding. Which is a tough lesson that newbies learn. It's also more exciting for more experienced players because your stuff can only get so secure, even at 4x. You have to be creative and design mazes, dead falls, traps, hidden chests behind false walls. Lots of neat things that I think taps into the game's inherent building capability that sets it apart from the competition.

I've been playing on a 64x server lately and honestly it can be kind of a drag. The bases are simple and large. People don't have to use their imagination much. The decision to raid is simply a time investment. If I have enough mats, then I don't bother raiding a big base unless I personally have had a reason to do so through negative interactions with the owner. The best servers are a good medium I think. 16x-24x protection is optimum imo.

I recommend you come play on what I think you would call a more healthy, moderate PVP server. Wicked Clowns is a good one (16/32 belt drop only, no griefing). World of Anarchy is also good and more hardcore (64x all drop, griefing allowed). Both have dedicated owners and a host of active (often anonymous) admins/moderators that make sure things keep going smoothly. These are pretty tight-knit communities, with several lone wolfs, small groups, and occasional clan that arises. What makes part of the PVP aspect successful, and I think will always be required no matter what rulesets can be designed is the presence of an admin/moderators to enforce the rules. The game is not secure enough to prevent hackers/exploiters, and I don't think can ever become so due to the way the authentication occurs between server & client. What constitutes griefing is a diverse issue with many different owners establishing rules that suit them. Not so sure that the game can be balanced or designed to instill a better sense of this. Examples (throwing the loot out on the ground, shuttling loot out to a temp base/drop chest, destroying containers, destroying blocks not required for access/egress, destroying bases that are not raidable without collapse (bases on 1x stilts), occupying/claiming a raided base as your own, filling it with land mines, camping bedrolls) There is probably a dozen other aspects that I've seen get interpreted differently where violators will get punished and admins will restore lost loot/region files to restore the peace. It's complicated and I don't know if the game can be designed/balanced to make this any better. Personally, I and some others find solace in just hardcore no rules (save for hackers). It's easier for owners to manage as well.

If you'd be up for it, you're welcome to hop on teamspeak with a few friends and I and we can discuss the health of these servers/what would change to make them better/several other viewpoints. Maybe log a few hours and you can get a taste for raiding/some of the good things. We all have over 1000 hours playing PVP, with one guy over 4000 hours. 4-8 PM CST on Friday is the best time. Weekends would be good too. PM if you're up for it. I think you'll be surprised, probably even have fun.

In short though,

Yes - XP for zombies. XP for players too (it's not that much is it)

(general MP comment) Restore the different sound for accessing creative menu. It was valuable for detecting hackers. Also, add a property for establishing the owner/crafter of a chest. The bad ones get banned quickly because they just wreak havoc. The worst thoug are the stealthy ones that quietly spawn in materials without drawing much attention to themselves. They don't go around blowing stuff up or keeping 500 oil barrels in their inventory. They just conveniently always have a full set of armor, 570 sniper rifle, and 125 ammo. A lot of these hackers are wising up to the fact that if they keep their stuff in a claimed base, they get banned. So they just stash it in an unclaimed dump chest somewhere. Having unique identifiers would be valuable for admins. Wicked clowns has a feature that auto bans players when they have certain items in their inventory only accessible through the CM. Would like to see things like this become stock admin/moderation tools with the game and not reliant on some 3rd party server managers.

K, back on point.

Loot tables need to be rebalanced and better randomized. This is kind of a dumb thing in even a realistic sense, since it introduces some sort of schrodinger's cat-like paradox on what's actually in the box. But practically speaking, the scavenging skills/quality joe perks put new and low level players at a huge competitive disadvantage.

Armor and weapon modifier perks need to be heavily nerfed or deleted entirely. Maybe these could be adjusted to offer meager gains, but that gets out of hand quick with the multiple perks doubling up on each other. Gate locking different armor classes/crafting material behind skill trees is totally okay, I just don't like the damage modifiers via skill level. I don't think the game should get balanced back out flat to be RUST, where you only need to farm the mats. But requiring a time investment/specialization can be good so long as it doesn't lead to crazy force multipliers from geared to the ungeared. Time to kill needs to be revisited and reduced with all guns. I should be able to kill you with a well placed headshot from a lot of different guns. At this point in time, I simply can't come close to killing a 250 wellness guy in military armor with heavy armor perked out. At a low level, I'll hit them with a 600 quality sniper rifle 4x in the chest and it still won't do it. Ridiculous.

Wellness gains (50) through perks should be reconsidered for reduction. 25% more health is quite a bit.

Delete all of the huffing/puffing/groaning/map open sounds. I very rarely find someone since they are making these sounds, and more often get revealed stalking someone by making them myself. The competitive advantage for mechanics like this should be given to the stalker, not the prey.

Delete the hot/cold temperature system.

Yes, gather mats faster or preferably reduce crafting quantities for reinforced concrete.

Show elevation, food & water in the hud. No menus for these things. (not unique to PVP i suppose, just an inherently bad design decision)

Keep the ability for the server to spec the land claim health, radius, drop type rulesets. Diversity is good here.

Invest in architecture to boost the capability of servers to handle more players (up to 50 at least). At this point "PVP" is not really supported all that well since a really really good server can barely handle 25 people. With a large world (even at 10k), the game begins to flourish in a competitive nature at around 30.

Allow unlimited map size. It gives players the ability to track out 15/20k to build up resources/establish themselves before moving closer to 0,0 and getting into the fray. Think of PVP'ers like introverts/extroverts. Some need the far away base to restore/rebuild resources/confidence/enable a sense of security. Some want to nomad it and just fight 100% of the time. Current drop rates for food/water support the nomadders just fine, but the 10k map is a little too small given the vanilla POI density with a 7 day respawn time. I can cover just about 1/4 of the map on a minibike in one evening. Experienced players will find your base at the current map limits. Some have added PVE/PVP zones. Which I think is a nice idea, but I haven't seen it executed well without some undesirable outcomes.

Land claim blocks should be expensive (think 500 steel + 1000 concrete mix + 20 red flowers). They used to be worth spending 20 minutes to steal one. They are way too cheap now, so people spam them.

Time to open wooden chests is about right but the degradation is kind of wonky (about 2 minutes). We usually just punch them open since everything does 1 damage.

Time to open gun safes should be 2-4x longer than a wooden chest. It should also hold more slots. It's physically bigger, metal, and requires more mats.