The LBD theyre introducing isnt what I wanted or had in mind.

[InfiniteWarrior]

Not to one that want "pure" LBD.

Either/or logic characterizes every split in the community. I'll spare you what I think the reason is, but black or white thinking rules the day and has for centuries. Learn By Doing and Learn By Reading are obviously not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, we do that all the time in real life.

Fortunately, I think, binary logic appears to be giving way to an admission of non-binary logic. There is absolutely no reason we can't have our cake and eat it, too, but we limit ourselves with these either/or boxes. It must be this or that, never both-and.

The new water system is an example of both-and. An LBD and LBR system would be as well.

Only question is: is it doable within TFP's time and budget constraints. If there's any patent impossibility, it'll be there.

 

[Jost Amman]

Yes, and whenever someone says "this feels forced" to anything he happens to like, he goes "nothing's forced"...

In the current iteration, mining is only "necessary" if you want to create massive amounts of concrete/steel for a large base. You don't need a massive base. The level of pain will depend on the details of the LBD, not just the idea of it;

So it was just a revenge reply for all the times he said that. Got it.
Also, that's not true. If you build a base from scratch you need LOTS of materials, be it wood, clay or stone.

and if the alternative route is already a worse pain

But it's not. That's what Roland was trying to explain.
Right now I don't need to waste time on mining to get better when I don't like mining.

With the skill points system I just put one or two points in Mother Lode and I'm done, mining is much more efficient which means I can spend less time on it and get all the resources I need. You can't do that with LBD, you're forced to invest time into mining over and over until you become more efficient because you leveled up.

 

[Jost Amman]

Either/or logic characterizes every split in the community. I'll spare you what I think the reason is, but black or white thinking rules the day and has for centuries. Learn By Doing and Learn By Reading are obviously not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, we do that all the time in real life.

Fortunately, I think, binary logic appears to be giving way to an admission of non-binary logic. There is absolutely no reason we can't have our cake and eat it, too, but we limit ourselves with these either/or boxes. It must be this or that, never both-and.

The new water system is an example of both-and. An LBD and LBR system would be as well.

Only question is: is it doable within TFP's time and budget constraints. If there's any patent impossibility, it'll be there.

Sorry, but you're misunderstanding my point, and Roland's point.
That's why I replied as such. I'll try to explain better.

I'm not saying that TFP can't come up with an acceptable hybrid system.
I'm just saying that to many players who like pure LBD, the hybrid system wouldn't be acceptable.
This is also based on some negative feedback some of them have already given in anticipation of a possible hybrid solution.

So, no, the possibilities are not infinite since most of them would be received negatively by most LBD supporters.

 

[theFlu]

Also, that's not true. If you build a base from scratch you need LOTS of materials, be it wood, clay or stone.

For specific values of "true", perhaps; none that I subscribe to, though. "A base from scratch" is 100-200 blocks. LOTS, as in "painful to get via just looting trash" it is not.
Another angle. In the current iteration, through complaints and an eventual "General Perks" -tab, mining is a STR -specialty. Every spec is designed to be viable as stand-alone. Ergo, mining (efficiency) is not necessary.

But it's not. That's what Roland was trying to explain.

I assume you're confusing my use of "alternative" with general-XP-skills, I was using it to refer to your "buy it"; and also "loot it" is viable. I at least don't think Roland spoke a word about buying base mats. I was comparing buying with low-skilled mining.

Right now I don't need to waste time on mining to get better when I don't like mining.

With the skill points system I just put one or two points in Mother Lode and I'm done,

How many swings would you find acceptable to reach the massive grind of skill-ups to "one point of Mother Lode"? Depending on implementation, you may be fighting against a "horrifying 10-swing grind"; after which you'd be better off yourself, for free.

Also, the mining perks are the most effective perks in-game to their purpose, with a couple "enabling" exceptions that are hard to compare. Everything else costs massively more and produces about half the effect size. I wouldn't mind increasing the baseline a bit and reducing the effect of the skill to bring it back to line with other things.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Sorry, but you're misunderstanding my point

I understood your point. Just illustrating the character of the splits. I don't know why exclusively LBD supporters and exclusively LBR supporters think it must be one or the other, but they do. Pehaps it would get the topic back on track if they explained why they do as opposed to what their preferences are.

This isn't how RPGs are supposed to work.

I've been under the impression that 7 Days to Die is a survival/tower defense game with "RPG elements". Not really my thing, to be honest. I much prefer the choice and consequence RPGs of old myself. Alas, they're an endangered species. Ergo, I've played everything from Elden Ring to Subnautica, neither of which are RPGs, either, afic.

Can you explain why you think a game like 7 Days or what we probably both consider actual RPGs, for that matter, must use a learn by doing system exclusively?

 

[Roland]

At what stage of the game is mining a "forced" thing?

At the stage where LBD dictates advancement. I’m not talking about whether or not there are alternatives to mining for getting stuff. I’m talking about how to improve your mining skill.

I thought nothing is forced in this game?

No. There are some forced parts of the game, obviously. But currently you aren’t forced to do one thing to improve that thing. LBD would change that.

No other way .. there's auger, which usually arrives sooner than any need for mass harvesting. Unskilled it might not be all that fast, but it isn't all that unpleasant either; and it would likely skill up fast.

Whether it’s an auger, a pickaxe, or a stone axe you are still forced to do the mining activity to improve mining under the LBD model so…yeah…no other way. Maybe waiting for an auger would be a more enjoyable way for some to LBD their mining skill rather than starting early with a stone axe. Probably depends on the person.

And this is before any other potential additions, like "early-expensive" learning buff drinks, because why not. Get wasted on Jen's Jarred Jist Juice and go punch some rocks for a while.

Sure, but I don’t know that punching rocks would improve your mining skill. It might improve your punching. But if bare handed mining did count then it is still a situation where you are forced to mine in order to improve your mining skill.

Yes, and whenever someone says "this feels forced" to anything he happens to like, he goes "nothing's forced"...

If your understanding of what I mean by that is so superficial and you think my criteria for assessing what in the game is forced or not is simply based on whether I like an activity or not—then I can’t explain it well enough for you to be able to understand. Just know that it isn’t how you are characterizing it and we’ll call it even.

In the current iteration,

So I have mostly been discussing the potential iteration where LBD might possibly return as a way to improve skills. I haven’t really been talking about the current iteration if you couldn’t tell. I fully agree with you that there is little to no forcing in the current iteration which is why I find it preferable.

 

[Jost Amman]

How many swings would you find acceptable to reach the massive grind of skill-ups to "one point of Mother Lode"? Depending on implementation, you may be fighting against a "horrifying 10-swing grind"; after which you'd be better off yourself, for free.

The problem with your reasoning is that if you make too easy to level up to appease players like me, you make early LBD leveling a joke for those who really want that system implemented in a balanced way.

It's like if there was a group saying they want people to EARN their money on the job, and another group who's saying they want food stamps.
You're basically saying to the first group that everybody will be paid even if they work just a few minutes a day. It's ridiculous and unbalanced.

In any case, let's cut this biscuit, if TFP want to add some form of LBD, I'll play it even if I don't like that leveling mechanic. If that happens I just hope it'll be a balanced compromise which doesn't make the gameplay "grindy".

 

[Roland]

Personally, I find the idea of a hybrid LBD and magazine reading for crafting to be an interesting one. I'm looking forward to how it gets implemented although I'd prefer it to come in a 3.x update so we can finally get bandits released. My responses are largely to those who are not satisfied with Joel's compromise and want LBD back fully for skill and perk advancement instead of skillpoint shopping.

 

[theFlu]

I’m talking about how to improve your mining skill.

And why would you, if you don't want to ... mine?
Seriously, and dropping whatever notion of hostility I might've been giving off:
The baseline might deserve a little buff going into a LBD, atm the first +60% block damage is "free". Some / all of that should prolly be earned quickly, changing essentially nothing for the "I'll just slap a point or two here" -crowd.

But currently you aren’t forced to do one thing to improve that thing. LBD would change that.

Yes you are, "gather XP"; not everyone plays your "give me free skill points daily" -edition "Gather XP" leads to its own stupid game mechanics, like running around in a Nerd hat regardless of spec, eliminating all other headgear.

Whether it’s an auger, a pickaxe, or a stone axe you are still forced to do the mining activity to improve mining under the LBD model so…yeah…no other way.

So you don't think that people would find Auger mining at low skill levels more tolerable than Stone axe mining ...?

Sure, but I don’t know that punching rocks would improve your mining skill. It might improve your punching. But if bare handed mining did count then it is still a situation where you are forced to mine in order to improve your mining skill.

Obviously "punch rocks" was indeed meant to be read literally. "God is dead; and there's not enough water in the oceans to clean the rivers of blood that will follow." - some other guy, obviously being literal.

If your understanding of what I mean by that is so superficial

I'd guess it's actually .. "deeper". I see the XP hat as an abomination, caused by the XP based levelling system. I don't care of "purely forced" if all the incentives are stacked one way. LBD would spread some of the incentives out.

I haven’t really been talking about the current iteration if you couldn’t tell.

I was using the current iteration as an indicator of "game balance intent" by TFP; "mining is in no way necessary". Are you suggesting that they've not gotten the basics of mining balance done this far?

The problem with your reasoning is that if you make too easy to level up to appease players like me, you make early LBD leveling a joke for those who really want that system implemented in a balanced way.

I don't know - I wouldn't expect the balance to be entirely different either; so what is easy now, would probably be easy in the future.

It's like if there was a group saying they want people to EARN their money on the job, and another group who's saying they want food stamps.
You're basically saying to the first group that everybody will be paid even if they work just a few minutes a day. It's ridiculous and unbalanced.

Roland is in the Basic Income camp - as long as you're alive, you'll get goodies. You're in the Food Stamps group? I'd like a job, tyvm, but nobody's hiring ...

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

what I dislike about this system the most is melee and ranged weapons are forced into builds

If anything feels "forced", it's that, imo. Someone posted a Pimp Dream about separating weapon skills from attributes at some point, but (apologies) I don't remember who.

The problem with it is that players feel discouraged or disincentivized from using the weapons they want to use in whatever combination they want to use them, despite that they can do so if they wish, because they have to spread their points among different attributes to do that and the feeling is that you're spreading your points too thin if, for example, you want Dead Eye to use rifles and Skull Crusher to use sledgehammers. Shotguns are grouped with blunt melee weapons; gunslinger with blades; etc. Dead Eye may be the only investment you want to make in the Perception attribute, yet you have to spend points not only to open it up, but to invest in rifle skills when the rest of your points might be concentrated in Strength or Agility or some other attribute.

Many a time in my testing, I've taken gunslinger only because I was invested in blades, both of which are under the Agility attribute, when I might have preferred to play around with blades and an AK-47 only because I didn't want that thin point spread at the time. While it makes a strange kind of sense for specific weapons and their skills to be grouped under specific attributes, it's not condusive to combinations from different attributes. If you take Skull Crusher, you're incentivized to take Boom Stick.

If that makes sense.

 

[Roland]

not everyone plays your "give me free skill points daily" -edition

Nobody has for years now. I'm done with my modding phase.

"Gather XP" leads to its own stupid game mechanics, like running around in a Nerd hat regardless of spec, eliminating all other headgear.

No system will prevent such stupid gameplay strategies. The people who do such things will discover the new ways to do such things under any progression mechanic and quickly become disatisfied with the result and jump to blaming the game.

So you don't think that people would find Auger mining at low skill levels more tolerable than Stone axe mining ...?

Well.... you parsed that sentence out of the quote you responded to. I literally said that some individuals would probably prefer waiting for the auger to mine rather than using the stone axe in the very next sentence after the one you quoted.

I see the XP hat as an abomination, caused by the XP based levelling system. I don't care of "purely forced" if all the incentives are stacked one way. LBD would spread some of the incentives out.

And I see it not mattering to the population that always feel forced to do the one most efficient thing. Spreading it out with LBD simply makes a little mini-game of discovering the new meta. But it is sure to be found sooner or later and as soon as it is and shared across the internet, the same voices will begin to shout again demanding a new rebalancing so that the meta discovery minigame can recommence.

 

[meganoth]

To be fair, your choices in Obsidian games are dialog options that dictate the outcome of the game, not stat choices in a vaccum.

Correct. But YOU were saying about the current perk system that it "It's purely choice based" as a DISADVANTAGE. Do you see the discrepancy? You made it into a negative thing where "choice" is usually a positive thing in RPGs (as well as games generally)

I think it's fairly obvious what my poll options mean. We also live in age of hyperlinked ? marks to give you a detailed description if a name isn't enough.

How can you say they should stick to their vision of the game? This game is nothing like their original vision. It's nothing like the game they set out to make originally. It's been babied down to the point that it has broader appeal which is exactly why the community is so frustrated with the devs. They already aren't making the game they "Want" they have been making the game their imaginary "customers want" and that is the entire issue we have. They aren't listening to the community and that is why we are divided.

You define as the "original vision" (quote: "They started as a much more faithful open world survival crafting RPG") the incomplete prototype of the early alphas and just assume it was their vision. When all they did was to make a first working game for early access, with whatever was available from the asset store. Wouldn't it be more correct to define their kickstarter description as their vision? Check it out, I think Jost already posted the bit where they implied a perk system.

Also, "babying down" a game can be done with perk points or LBD, that is a very different discussion. Do you really think that with LBD the question marks would go away?

It's really comical to me someone is anti polling when trying to establish what would make the game better.

This assumes that the result of a poll would make the game better. Which usually is wrong, it just makes it more likeable to some part of its players and less likeable to some other part of its players. Tastes more than anything else define how much players like a game. That is why even in this community the opinions are split. It's a battle between tastes, not good or bad. Or do you actually think I prefer a bad game?

 

[theFlu]

Well.... you parsed that sentence out of the quote you responded to.

Indeed I did. Why?

And I see it not mattering to the population that always feel forced to do the one most efficient thing.

Should it? Am I asking for it to?

 

[Jost Amman]

Indeed I did. Why?


Should it? Am I asking for it to?

Why are you always answering with a question?
Are you provoking? Are you trolling?

And, most important of all... would you be satisfied if the answer to all your questions is 42?

 

[theFlu]

Why are you always answering with a question?

Not always, not even usually. But once I feel I've been misunderstood enough for the discussion to have become unsalvageable, I sometimes start. It's not like I need my posting rights here.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I'd like to hear suggestions for a well-balanced, hybrid LBD-LBR system because I don't have any. My thing is aesthetics and I'd be up for anything that makes wilderness survival, especially, more viable in comparison to urban life because the wilderness in 7 Days to Die is looking pretty grim and forelorn, atm. The ability to interact with natural water sources without getting sick was an excellent step, except that containers for collecting, boiling and drinking water are scarce and you can't make any for quite a long time, of course.

The ability to level weapon skills by using them would go a long way in that regard, but that obviously wouldn't be acceptable to many, at least among those participating on the forums because making a hundred iron daggers to raise one's smithing skill was apparently a thing, if not an issue, for Skyrim. Who does that? Probably people who think they're so clever, they can find "exploits" even where there are none, e.g. avoiding hordes on horde night when one can easily just turn horde night off and on in the settings. That kind of thing. Reserving magazine and book learning for crafting doesn't seem to me crippling or destructive, as some have put it, of that aspect of the game to me. You have to gather magazines to do that anyway, which makes perfect sense. I couldn't build a deck for my house without at least having an instruction manual in hand and, even then, it'd probably collapse in a week. So, people are rubbing up against cacti to raise their armor skill, you say? Well, that's weird, but if they want to optimize the fun out of the game, I guess that's their business.

 

[meganoth]

I'd like to hear suggestions for a well-balanced, hybrid LBD-LBR system because I don't have any. My thing is aesthetics and I'd be up for anything that makes wilderness survival, especially, more viable in comparison to urban life because the wilderness in 7 Days to Die is looking pretty grim and forelorn, atm. The ability to interact with natural water sources without getting sick was an excellent step, except that containers for collecting, boiling and drinking water are scarce and you can't make any for quite a long time, of course.

The ability to level weapon skills by using them would go a long way in that regard, but that obviously wouldn't be acceptable to many, at least among those participating on the forums because making a hundred iron daggers to raise one's smithing skill was apparently a thing, if not an issue, for Skyrim.

Lets not forget there are players with other reasons as well: It wouldn't be acceptable to many because it would replace what perks do now.

Sure, you hear the cacti story as well from time to time. Sometimes it is a strawman to lump all critics of perks together for an easy "argument kill", sometimes they are just saying "A15 LBD didn't work out well" in different words

Who does that? Probably people who think they're so clever, they can find "exploits" even where there are none, e.g. avoiding hordes on horde night when one can easily just turn horde night off and on in the settings. That kind of thing. Reserving magazine and book learning for crafting doesn't seem to me crippling or destructive, as some have put it, of that aspect of the game to me. You have to gather magazines to do that anyway, which makes perfect sense. I couldn't build a deck for my house without at least having an instruction manual in hand and, even then, it'd probably collapse in a week. So, people are rubbing up against cacti to raise their armor skill, you say? Well, that's weird, but if they want to optimize the fun out of the game, I guess that's their business.

 

[Roland]

Indeed I did. Why?

I have no idea. Only you know. I can think of an innocent reason and a couple of hostile reason. But I'll assume the innocent one that you didn't notice.

Should it? Am I asking for it to?

Should it matter? I don't think it should from the design perspective. TFP has always been interested in offering multiple ways to get stuff and do things. I don't think it is possible to make those pathways exactly equally efficient. That means that efficiency seekers will always be dissatisfied because for them, the other alternate pathways will always be a waste of time. So TFP should just make the game the way they want.

Are you asking for it to matter? I don't know. Are you? I was simply stating my own opinion and not trying to make any statement about what you want or are asking for. You'll have to share what you are asking for yourself.

 

[theFlu]

But I'll assume the innocent one that you didn't notice.

Because your original claim was about
"[players are] forced to mine when it isn’t fun for them and grind their skills up in a very tedious process."

My points have been:
- Players aren't forced to mine, at all.
- The state of "isn't fun" depends highly on the other factors of the game, the mere existence of LBD doesn't force misery.

You basically added my second point into your addition; by ignoring it, I highlighted it

You'll have to share what you are asking for yourself.

Wasn't me using the "the angry optimizers will remain angry" -argument. Because it isn't ..

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Get a room, guys.