The LBD theyre introducing isnt what I wanted or had in mind.

[Kosmic Kerman]

The response that always makes me laugh and shake my head is when someone declares, “ Nobody asked for this” as though the only content that should ever be added is wish fulfillment for some portion of the community and the devs are just supposed to wait around for the community to tell them what to do next. Anything other than this is somehow “ego”.

I’ve been occasionally browsing the 7d2d subreddit recently and it was a real eye opener. I hadn’t realized just how bad that subreddit had gotten. Anything someone doesn’t like is because TFP is on a mission to spite them personally.

 

[warmer]

I disagree.
This is NOT a democracy and I don't know when players started thinking they have the RIGHT to decide the direction of development of ANY game.

The fact that now many developers actively listen to player feedback and suggestions is only good to a point. As I've said in the past, when I pick an Early Access game, I do that because I like the developer's VISION. Some weak-willed developers however, after a while, start developing whatever the so called "majority" asks. That is BAD in my opinion, since many games have become cookie-cutter ideas that are always the same because people vote for what they already know and like.

But how? The community is pretty split on this. Which feedback do you listen to? Look at jars. They were returned to the game with a breakability setting and people were ■■■■■ing that the game was not balanced on non default settings. People like that want the game their way, no compromises. There is no consensus to be had.

With millions of players the easiest way to get an accurate reading of what the majority of players is to push an update that has a poll at launch. Log each keys response so no one can vote more than once and tally the votes. I know of many games that use polling to guide dev.


A - LBD for all skills
B - LBD for crafting only - I want to put points into attributes
C - LBD for attributes only, I like collecting magazines
D - It's perfect as is.

Leave it open for a month. Implement. Done.

It's not complicated, and given that they have flip flopped back and forth on the progression, chances are the community has had a taste of both. Given that TFP have been in dev for over a decade on this, a poll can put this to rest and you can't argue with community feedback if it's overwhelming.

The problem with what we have now is lack of consensus/polling. We have playtesting and the loudest voices , not the majority of voices that dictate where dev goes. The reason you put this in game at launch is it ensures every player has a chance to vote. Placing it in a forum is NOT where the average player will see it.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

With millions of players the easiest way to get an accurate reading of what the majority of players is to push an update that has a poll at launch. Log each keys response so no one can vote more than once and tally the votes. I know of many games that use polling to guide dev.


A - LBD for all skills
B - LBD for crafting only - I want to put points into attributes
C - LBD for attributes only, I like collecting magazines
D - It's perfect as is.

Leave it open for a month. Implement. Done.

It's not complicated, and given that they have flip flopped back and forth on the progression, chances are the community has had a taste of both. Given that TFP have been in dev for over a decade on this, a poll can put this to rest and you can't argue with community feedback if it's overwhelming.

The problem with what we have now is lack of consensus/polling. We have playtesting and the loudest voices , not the majority of voices that dictate where dev goes. The reason you put this in game at launch is it ensures every player has a chance to vote. Placing it in a forum is NOT where the average player will see it.

Setting aside the feasibility of this, this assumes the players actually understand what the poll options mean and what those systems would entail. I have some serious doubts about either of those being true. There are tons of posts on this forum that are internally inconsistent I have no experience with games that do multiple choice polls that determine the direction of core systems of the games. I am skeptical that this is a real thing. I have played games that do player surveys but the devs are still making the final call on how to design the game.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

With millions of players the easiest way to get an accurate reading of what the majority of players is to push an update that has a poll at launch. Log each keys response so no one can vote more than once and tally the votes. I know of many games that use polling to guide dev.


A - LBD for all skills
B - LBD for crafting only - I want to put points into attributes
C - LBD for attributes only, I like collecting magazines
D - It's perfect as is.

Leave it open for a month. Implement. Done.

It's not complicated, and given that they have flip flopped back and forth on the progression, chances are the community has had a taste of both. Given that TFP have been in dev for over a decade on this, a poll can put this to rest and you can't argue with community feedback if it's overwhelming.

The problem with what we have now is lack of consensus/polling. We have playtesting and the loudest voices , not the majority of voices that dictate where dev goes. The reason you put this in game at launch is it ensures every player has a chance to vote. Placing it in a forum is NOT where the average player will see it.

Game development should never be "dictated" or even democratically decided upon by players, imo. Developers across the board should be able make the game they want to play, imo, and if others want to play it, too, that's just icing on the cake. If that's hard to imagine, try imagining millions of readers looking over the shoulder of a novel author and saying, "You shouldn't write that, you should write this instead."

This is not to say community feedback is not important. It is and I do think TFP allowed perfectionism to get the better of them at some point and perhaps didn't think through a few changes and how they would affect the entire game world as well as they might have, but seem to be back on track in that regard.

I feel for console players and their inability to use mods, for the moment, but the vast majority of 'Pimp Dreams' I've seen don't even seem feasible for a smallish team. A triple A studio with a multibillion dollar budget, maybe, but not a reasonably sized team with a reasonable budget of time and money. And, I don't know about anyone else, but I've had quite enough of the triple As and their shenanigans, not least trying to produce games that will appeal to everyone. The old adage is true: "Try to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one."

 

[zztong]

cartridge games are still pretty popular...just saying. lol

I am sure there are a great many people out there who have tried to make a piece of entertainment that failed to reach a greater audience. It is like a lottery ticket in that way...if it hits big the creator is set for life and/or "the doors" are now open for them, more early backers, more options, more top people wanting in on the next thing...which allows them some distance from listening to outside voices.

I'll take your word for it on the cartridge games. The last I saw one was in a pawn shop, but I know folks like vinyl records and other older technologies too. (I still have a working Timex Sinclair.)

What I was getting at wasn't entirely the speculative nature of the industry related to player popularity, but that there are efforts to make a game that get killed before reaching the market. We read of those cancellations yearly. The sponsor pulls their support for a variety of reasons. This happens with other kinds of software too, even internal projects to just make a tool for the company to use.

 

[Roland]

With millions of players the easiest way to get an accurate reading of what the majority of players is to push an update that has a poll at launch. Log each keys response so no one can vote more than once and tally the votes. I know of many games that use polling to guide dev.


A - LBD for all skills
B - LBD for crafting only - I want to put points into attributes
C - LBD for attributes only, I like collecting magazines
D - It's perfect as is.

Leave it open for a month. Implement. Done.

It's not complicated, and given that they have flip flopped back and forth on the progression, chances are the community has had a taste of both. Given that TFP have been in dev for over a decade on this, a poll can put this to rest and you can't argue with community feedback if it's overwhelming.

The problem with what we have now is lack of consensus/polling. We have playtesting and the loudest voices , not the majority of voices that dictate where dev goes. The reason you put this in game at launch is it ensures every player has a chance to vote. Placing it in a forum is NOT where the average player will see it.

But what if the creators of the game want their game to be more like Fallout and not more like Elder Scrolls? What then? Why put out a poll for something that is completely contradictory to what they want?

 

[warmer]

Game development should never be "dictated" or even democratically decided upon by players, imo. Developers across the board should be able make the game they want to play, imo, and if others want to play it, too, that's just icing on the cake. If that's hard to imagine, try imagining millions of readers looking over the shoulder of a novel author and saying, "You shouldn't write that, you should write this instead."

I 100% agree, but as I see it as a player since A6, I can sincerely say there has never been a consistent direction from the devs.

That majority of major updates have done 1 of the following:

Scrapped a beloved mechanic
or
Introduced a watered down version of a previously robust system

What has happened is the game has gotten so far from the original spirit of the game and the community is very divided because of this.

They started as a much more faithful open world survival crafting RPG, and now it's been simplified to the point that I have no connection to the actions of my player and the way I improve. It's purely choice based and this pushes it into arcade gameplay and less of an RPG.

I have been playing a ton of Stalker Gamma and the way it implements the stat system is LBD and this feels totally immersive because you can't spend points. Your behavior dictates your progress. Maybe a meme will help illustrate my feelings better than words.

Which one do you want to play? That is what this comes down to.

 

[Riamus]

With millions of players the easiest way to get an accurate reading of what the majority of players is to push an update that has a poll at launch. Log each keys response so no one can vote more than once and tally the votes. I know of many games that use polling to guide dev.


A - LBD for all skills
B - LBD for crafting only - I want to put points into attributes
C - LBD for attributes only, I like collecting magazines
D - It's perfect as is.

Leave it open for a month. Implement. Done.

It's not complicated, and given that they have flip flopped back and forth on the progression, chances are the community has had a taste of both. Given that TFP have been in dev for over a decade on this, a poll can put this to rest and you can't argue with community feedback if it's overwhelming.

The problem with what we have now is lack of consensus/polling. We have playtesting and the loudest voices , not the majority of voices that dictate where dev goes. The reason you put this in game at launch is it ensures every player has a chance to vote. Placing it in a forum is NOT where the average player will see it.

You're making a false assumption. That isn't a way to "get an accurate reading of what the majority of players." Most players will not bother with the poll. And forcing a poll leads to people just randomly clicking something to skip it (with most usually picking either the first or last options, often without reading any of them). It also doesn't verify that players understand the choices. The choices you gave won't get accurate results unless you first make it very clear what the differences are. You do understand that there are a lot of different ways LBD can be done, right? Someone might like one method, but hate any others. If they vote for LBD and it's a version they don't like, maybe they would have preferred not having LBD at all at that point. In short, no... your idea will not give accurate results of what the majority of players think or want.

The devs should NOT be trying to let players dictate the way the game is developed anyhow. They should stick to their vision of the game. They can listen to feedback and make adjustments that they feel are valid and fall within their vision, but they should not be changing the game to something that certain players want if it's not within their vision for the game. That's how games get ruined. You may not like something, and you may talk to people with the same opinions (most people hang out with people who have similar opinions) and so you think that everyone thinks like you do. But the reality is that there may be as many (or more) who don't agree with you. Just because you don't see them since you hang out with people who are similar to you doesn't mean they don't exist. Things that are optional are fine because people can choose whichever method they prefer. But otherwise, they should stick to their own vision.

And don't forget that TFP has always said that the game would be a mix of genres, including RPG. Just because it was missing a lot of features in the earlier alphas and some people thought the game would stay the same as those and are upset now that it is getting other stuff added that's more RPG or whatever else doesn't mean that the game is changing to something that wasn't intended. Game development includes a lot of trial... you try something out and see how it works. If it's good, you keep it. If not, you remove it or change it. That's normal. If that isn't something you want to deal with, then you don't play early access games.

 

[meganoth]

I 100% agree, but as I see it as a player since A6, I can sincerely say there has never been a consistent direction from the devs.

That majority of major updates have done 1 of the following:

Scrapped a beloved mechanic
or
Introduced a watered down version of a previously robust system

What has happened is the game has gotten so far from the original spirit of the game and the community is very divided because of this.

They started as a much more faithful open world survival crafting RPG, and now it's been simplified to the point that I have no connection to the actions of my player and the way I improve. It's purely choice based and this pushes it into arcade gameplay and less of an RPG.

I have been playing a ton of Stalker Gamma and the way it implements the stat system is LBD and this feels totally immersive because you can't spend points. Your behavior dictates your progress. Maybe a meme will help illustrate my feelings better than words.

Which one do you want to play? That is what this comes down to.

View attachment 38140

It is funny you reference RPGs, because Role Playing Games as done on pen & paper (the original so to speak) is done exactly as in 7D2D with distributable points and (to my knowledge) never with LBD.

The epitome of strange is when you say "It's purely choice based and this pushes it into arcade gameplay and less of an RPG.". Last time I heard RPG game developers like Obsidian were promoting their RPGs with "more choices, choices and consequences ...". IMHO perk points are very much RPG and if anything I would put LBD and aracde together. But that depends on the definition of "arcade", usually the word means something totally unrelated to perks or LBD.

 

[Roland]

One of those choices (and it's a big one) is to decide whether to spend points in ways that match how you've been playing or to spend points in ways that are misaligned from how you've been playing. That choice is always available and reveals what a player actually cares about. It's easy to post in a forum that immersion is what you truly want but if you then play the game and earn points solely by killing zombies and then choose to spend those points on something completely unrelated to that, it is your own fault that the progression doesn't feel natural. Skillpoint shopping lets you choose immersion or efficiency as you like.

In my play, I try to accomplish a variety of objectives and tasks so that when I earn my skillpoints I feel that they can be spent pretty much in any category since I've been doing some of everything. I don't choose one efficient single task and grind that to farm xp doing that one thing because it is the fastest way to gain points and then boohoo that somehow I got better at forging because I killed several waves of screamer hordes that I purposely attracted by lighting 20 campfires at once....

 

[warmer]

It is funny you reference RPGs, because Role Playing Games as done on pen & paper (the original so to speak) is done exactly as in 7D2D with distributable points and (to my knowledge) never with LBD.

The epitome of strange is when you say "It's purely choice based and this pushes it into arcade gameplay and less of an RPG.". Last time I heard RPG game developers like Obsidian were promoting their RPGs with "more choices, choices and consequences ...". IMHO perk points are very much RPG and if anything I would put LBD and aracde together. But that depends on the definition of "arcade", usually the word means something totally unrelated to perks or LBD.

To be fair, your choices in Obsidian games are dialog options that dictate the outcome of the game, not stat choices in a vaccum.

I think it's fairly obvious what my poll options mean. We also live in age of hyperlinked ? marks to give you a detailed description if a name isn't enough.

You're making a false assumption. That isn't a way to "get an accurate reading of what the majority of players." Most players will not bother with the poll. And forcing a poll leads to people just randomly clicking something to skip it (with most usually picking either the first or last options, often without reading any of them). It also doesn't verify that players understand the choices. The choices you gave won't get accurate results unless you first make it very clear what the differences are. You do understand that there are a lot of different ways LBD can be done, right?

The devs should NOT be trying to let players dictate the way the game is developed anyhow. They should stick to their vision of the game. They can listen to feedback and make adjustments that they feel are valid and fall within their vision, but they should not be changing the game to something that certain players want if it's not within their vision for the game.

How can you say they should stick to their vision of the game? This game is nothing like their original vision. It's nothing like the game they set out to make originally. It's been babied down to the point that it has broader appeal which is exactly why the community is so frustrated with the devs. They already aren't making the game they "Want" they have been making the game their imaginary "customers want" and that is the entire issue we have. They aren't listening to the community and that is why we are divided.

It's really comical to me someone is anti polling when trying to establish what would make the game better. You DO KNOW we used to pay playtesters to find this out. Playtesters are LITERALLY polling players! lol

There isn't a single game dev with a widely success game that didn't take outside feedback on design and gameplay. That simply doesn't exist.


This isn't how RPGs are supposed to work. We are playing "roles" I am 48 years old and I grew up on pen and paper. The idea a fighter who spent his entire first 5 level of XP gain slicing off the heads of goblins to level up his lock picking skill when he has never once touched a lock pick is STUPID. lol

 

[ParadiseLostUK]

Given half the crap 'the community' asks for on this forum, I'm quite comfortable for the devs to do their own thing. The community sure as hell doesn't speak for me.

Oh, and the biggest RPG in the last few years was Baldur's Gate 3... I don't remember any LBD systems in that one.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I 100% agree, but as I see it as a player since A6, I can sincerely say there has never been a consistent direction from the devs.

That majority of major updates have done 1 of the following:

Scrapped a beloved mechanic
or
Introduced a watered down version of a previously robust system

What has happened is the game has gotten so far from the original spirit of the game and the community is very divided because of this.

They started as a much more faithful open world survival crafting RPG, and now it's been simplified to the point that I have no connection to the actions of my player and the way I improve. It's purely choice based and this pushes it into arcade gameplay and less of an RPG.

I have been playing a ton of Stalker Gamma and the way it implements the stat system is LBD and this feels totally immersive because you can't spend points. Your behavior dictates your progress. Maybe a meme will help illustrate my feelings better than words.

Which one do you want to play? That is what this comes down to.

View attachment 38140

I understand your point of view and suspect that's why the concept of a hybrid LBD-LBR, both-and system is under discussion at all. And that's why community feedback is important. It's not to hold developers to some impossible ideal or standard, especially an egotistical one, but an exchange of ideas, preferably healthy. It's symbiotic in that sense. BGS, for example, long was well-regarded because developers inspired mod authors; mod authors inspired developers; and a great symbiotic community of studio, mod authors, mod users and players was born. (Leaving aside all current events and entities, e.g. parent companies and the stock market, of course.)

If there is time and budget remaining, I imagine a well-thought through hybrid system could only be a boon for the game's appeal, ntm that forelorn wilderness aspect, but no matter what TFP decides to or can do or not do, it's not going to be everyone's ideal system because our personal preferences will naturally be different.

We have to remember, also, that not every decision made about the development of a video game is for the sake of the video game, much less players. There's a business aspect to things as well and some decisions are going to be made for business purposes. Sucks, I know, but that's the world we live in. If you own a studio and don't make those business decisions wisely, chances are you're going to go out of business and that's obviously a going concern for business owners of all kinds everywhere. Interplay, for example, went out of business partly because they didn't see the trend toward console eclipsing the PC market. Now, we're seeing an awful lot of studios succumbing to the "too big to fail" mentality and allowing themselves to be bought out by corporate behemoths that obviously couldn't care less whether the studios stay in business or not and are concerned only with ROI. Sincerely hope they don't come to regret it as, I'm sure, some studios already have, but there we are. It's a business jungle out there and those who are navigating it as best they can deserve our respect, if not always our support.

 

[Roland]

How can you say they should stick to their vision of the game? This game is nothing like their original vision. It's nothing like the game they set out to make originally. It's been babied down to the point that it has broader appeal which is exactly why the community is so frustrated with the devs. They already aren't making the game they "Want" they have been making the game their imaginary "customers want" and that is the entire issue we have. They aren't listening to the community and that is why we are divided.

This is your speculation and opinion and it is 100% wrong. Sorry, but you have come to all the wrong conclusions in whatever analysis you have conducted. You have assumed motives and reasons that are completely off base. This game has and is becoming exactly what they envisioned and promised which is why those who imagined a different outcome are so angry.

It's really comical to me someone is anti polling when trying to establish what would make the game better. You DO KNOW we used to pay playtesters to find this out. Playtesters are LITERALLY polling players! lol

There isn't a single game dev with a widely success game that didn't take outside feedback on design and gameplay. That simply doesn't exist.

Classical playtesters are not outside feedback in the same way polling a community is outside feedback. Playtesters sign NDAs and give feedback with no expectation that it will dictate development. Everything is internal and the public never knows what might have been.

Public polls carry an expectation that the results will dictate development and everyone knows what might have been and the people who wanted that alternate reality get angry.

If the devs had experimented internally with LBD and abandoned it before ever releasing a version using it then the public would never have known it was on the table. Only the playtesters would know and they wouldn’t be able to talk about it. But the public was used to experiment and now we have angry people who can’t let go of it.

This isn't how RPGs are supposed to work. We are playing "roles" I am 48 years old and I grew up on pen and paper. The idea a fighter who spent his entire first 5 level of XP gain slicing off the heads of goblins to level up his lock picking skill when he has never once touched a lock pick is STUPID. lol

YOU are choosing not to play a role. That’s on you. The game currently allows you to play a role if that is truly what is important to you. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you power grind being a doctor for a week so you can level up your arm strength for the Octagon. Nobody but you is choosing to farm goblin heads to put points in lock picking. If that’s what you’re doing then min/maxing is what is actually more important to you than playing a role and I agree about the stupidity of that.

If you want to play a role then do it and stop optimizing the fun out of your game. Why should the devs put in measures to force us to align our actions with our progression when we can already do so by choice if that’s what we really want?

 

[Adam the Waster]

Im very interesting in it and looking forward too seeing this

 

[Roland]

With skillpoint shopping

Player A can mine with their stone axe at horrible efficiency but playing the role of a novice miner and then purchase perks to improve mining. Eventually they will be mining a lot of ore using a high quality iron pick and enjoy that feeling of progression.

Player B who does not enjoy playing the role of a novice miner cans do other things and then level up mining to the point where they enjoy it. Efficiency in mining is more important and they are glad they didn’t have to mine to get better at mining.

With LBD

Player A doesn’t really change their behavior and they still get a satisfying feeling of progression.

Player B is forced to mine when it isn’t fun for them and grind their skills up in a very tedious process. There is no choice to do it any other way.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

There is no choice to do it any other way.

There are always choices and possibilities to which we may be blind. In fact, they're infinite. That a hybrid system is possible is one such possibility. Whether TFP wants to or has the time and budget to look into it, is something only they would know. Should they develop such a hybrid system, which even Joel has mentioned in passing, It may not be exactly what warner or anyone else would like, but that doesn't negate the possibility and you're not invalidating warner's concerns by telling him he's wrong.

 

[theFlu]

Player B is forced to mine

At what stage of the game is mining a "forced" thing? I thought nothing is forced in this game?
No other way .. there's auger, which usually arrives sooner than any need for mass harvesting. Unskilled it might not be all that fast, but it isn't all that unpleasant either; and it would likely skill up fast.

And this is before any other potential additions, like "early-expensive" learning buff drinks, because why not. Get wasted on Jen's Jarred Jist Juice and go punch some rocks for a while.

 

[Jost Amman]

There are always choices and possibilities to which we may be blind. In fact, they're infinite.

Not to one that want "pure" LBD.

At what stage of the game is mining a "forced" thing? I thought nothing is forced in this game?

Unless you're playing with words here (which I see you do often) he was implying that mining is a necessary activity if you need materials for almost anything. Sure, you could buy the same resources from a Trader for example, so nothing is forced, but it would be a PitA to raise up all the needed cash just because you suck at mining, wouldn't it?

 

[theFlu]

he was implying that mining is a necessary activity

Yes, and whenever someone says "this feels forced" to anything he happens to like, he goes "nothing's forced"...

In the current iteration, mining is only "necessary" if you want to create massive amounts of concrete/steel for a large base. You don't need a massive base. The level of pain will depend on the details of the LBD, not just the idea of it; and if the alternative route is already a worse pain, then ... what's the issue?