The LBD theyre introducing isnt what I wanted or had in mind.

[Jost Amman]

Can someone give me a rundown of exactly what we know so far as I'm confused as what what we may actually see for the new system?

Don't worry about that, it's still a work in progress... not even that, they're still in the concept phase.
We're like a bunch of dogs barking at the shadows because they heard something moving, but we don't know if it's friend or foe yet.

 

[meganoth]

I probably don’t care and will use a mod anyway, but don’t you think it’s unfair? Whether it’s a minority or not, some people have been playing for a very long time. For those players who liked that system, there should at least be a ‘learn by doing’ option for them. You can’t just disregard the old players just because there are more new ones. The veterans deserve it who knows how long a new player will actually stick with the game? Those who have been playing for a long time probably will never stop, while at the same time, many new players will likely leave. The veterans should have just as much fun with the game as those who’ve been playing for a shorter time.

What exactly do veterans deserve for their contribution of buying a single copy of the game once? I would say everyone who had fun playing the game more than 50 hours had made a very good deal, right?

Playing the game for hundreds of hours may give the developers a warm feeling on christmas that they have done some things right.

 

[ALEXZANDER]

What exactly do veterans deserve for their contribution of buying a single copy of the game once? I would say everyone who had fun playing the game more than 50 hours had made a very good deal, right?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

For me it is just lessons learned.
Let's pretend that I have only purchased one copy of 7D2D and let's pretend that I didn't purchase any other as gifts for friends and family and let's pretend that I never recommended the game to countless players in the past.
Now, while my "single veteran copy" holds next to zero weight in the eyes of the developers, the next to zero chance of me ever purchasing another game in the franchise or by The Fun Pimps shouldn't bother them either.

 

[Treb]

For me it is just lessons learned.
Let's pretend that I have only purchased one copy of 7D2D and let's pretend that I didn't purchase any other as gifts for friends and family and let's pretend that I never recommended the game to countless players in the past.
Now, while my "single veteran copy" holds next to zero weight in the eyes of the developers, the next to zero chance of me ever purchasing another game in the franchise or by The Fun Pimps shouldn't bother them either.

The thing is that at the end of the day, if you stop buying their stuff, but two other people do, they are still in the positives.

They will make the decisions they think will satisfy their vision and please the highest amount of players.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

The thing is that at the end of the day, if you stop buying their stuff, but two other people do, they are still in the positives.

They will make the decisions they think will satisfy their vision and please the highest amount of players.

It is not "the thing." If I stop buying their stuff, sure two other people might still, but more importantly four people might not.
Besides, the intention of my post is not to send TFP into negatives. It would be ridiculous to think I alone could do such a thing. All I am saying is that the thoughts of veteran consumers have much more significance than made to believe. Eventually there will be a shortage of new players to please and all that will be left are veterans. It might not happen by the time this game is 100% finalized, but it will happen.

This thing about "their vision" is silly at this point. Their vision changes and has changed.

 

[Jost Amman]

I see so many entitled customers here... when will people realize they're just 1 opinion.

I can't talk for anybody else but me. I can't represent anybody else but me.
I didn't buy any TFP shares. I don't have any special influence on this game's development.

BUT... TFP must hear me or else!

We all know the only one who can claim to have MILLIONS of (PvP) players behind him, is @Grandpa Minion !
Only HE can sway the direction of future development.

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

What exactly do veterans deserve for their contribution of buying a single copy of the game once? I would say everyone who had fun playing the game more than 50 hours had made a very good deal, right?

Playing the game for hundreds of hours may give the developers a warm feeling on christmas that they have done some things right.

I bought this game a long time ago yes, I paid for it once, but I’ve invested far more than just the initial purchase. I regularly buy DLCs, and if more are released that I like, I will buy those too, because I genuinely love this game. I’ve also brought many friends into the game, who bought it and purchased DLCs as well, so I assume that apparently doesn’t matter at all?


And what about the streamers who brought in huge numbers of players? Many of them openly talk about how much they miss the “learn by doing” system, and they have massive support from the community that agrees with them. But it’s not just streamers if people enjoy the game, they bring their own friends in too. Let’s be honest: many players were introduced to the game by veterans who have been playing for years, and what do they get in return? A slap in the face. This is not a small group of people.


It was said that the system would be a hybrid of “learn by doing” combined with magazines, and many players naturally assumed this would include action skills, combat skills, and similar abilities. Instead, they only got a changed crafting system and that’s not what they wanted. That misunderstanding only made players even more frustrated.


There is no chance these people will stay silent. They want this system back, they will continue to speak about it loudly, nothing else will convince them, no alternative solution or compromise will replace it, and there is no way to change their minds.

 

[Kyoji]

I probably don’t care and will use a mod anyway, but don’t you think it’s unfair? Whether it’s a minority or not, some people have been playing for a very long time. For those players who liked that system, there should at least be a ‘learn by doing’ option for them. You can’t just disregard the old players just because there are more new ones. The veterans deserve it who knows how long a new player will actually stick with the game? Those who have been playing for a long time probably will never stop, while at the same time, many new players will likely leave. The veterans should have just as much fun with the game as those who’ve been playing for a shorter time.

I've played A16 and consider myself a veteran. You are assuming just because I played with LBD I care about it enough to change it back? Don't confuse YouTube personalities for veteran opinions.

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

I've played A16 and consider myself a veteran. You are assuming just because I played with LBD I care about it enough to change it back? Don't confuse YouTube personalities for veteran opinions.

It's not that just because you played with Lean by Doing, you automatically like it. I'm talking about people who actually miss it, and as we know, there are quite a lot of them.

 

[Jost Amman]

I bought this game a long time ago yes, I paid for it once, but I’ve invested far more than just the initial purchase. I regularly buy DLCs, and if more are released that I like, I will buy those too, because I genuinely love this game. I’ve also brought many friends into the game, who bought it and purchased DLCs as well, so I assume that apparently doesn’t matter at all?


And what about the streamers who brought in huge numbers of players? Many of them openly talk about how much they miss the “learn by doing” system, and they have massive support from the community that agrees with them. But it’s not just streamers if people enjoy the game, they bring their own friends in too. Let’s be honest: many players were introduced to the game by veterans who have been playing for years, and what do they get in return? A slap in the face. This is not a small group of people.


It was said that the system would be a hybrid of “learn by doing” combined with magazines, and many players naturally assumed this would include action skills, combat skills, and similar abilities. Instead, they only got a changed crafting system and that’s not what they wanted. That misunderstanding only made players even more frustrated.


There is no chance these people will stay silent. They want this system back, they will continue to speak about it loudly, nothing else will convince them, no alternative solution or compromise will replace it, and there is no way to change their minds.

Ok, sorry, but I have to say this...

Did you sign any special commercial agreement with TFP?
Are you getting paid as a TFP Agent in the games market?

Because the way you're talking sounds like... "since I praised a game I like to my friends and acquaintances and they bought it, I expect some kind of reward because I did that"?

So, by that same reasoning, if you now start talking trash about the game and make some people quit or not buy it, you should be sued by TFP for damages?

See how silly that sounds?
That's called entitlement.

 

[ParadiseLostUK]

It's not that just because you played with Lean by Doing, you automatically like it. I'm talking about people who actually miss it, and as we know, there are quite a lot of them.

And we 'know' that there are a lot of them, do we? Are there also a lot of people who didn't like it? Or a lot of people who, like me, are completely ambivalent? It's always the unhappy people that are loudest, that doesn't necessarily mean there are more of them.

It's the glass jars issue all over again.

The actual detail of the system, as far as I'm concerned, can be as arbitrary as it wants, the only important factor is whether it's fun. In my opinion, regardless of the system, the game has pretty much always been fun.

Apart from the time around A17/18 when they gave perfectly good food a chance to make you ill. That I hated!

 

[jadMurray]

And we 'know' that there are a lot of them, do we? Are there also a lot of people who didn't like it? Or a lot of people who, like me, are completely ambivalent? It's always the unhappy people that are loudest, that doesn't necessarily mean there are more of them.

It's the glass jars issue all over again.

The actual detail of the system, as far as I'm concerned, can be as arbitrary as it wants, the only important factor is whether it's fun. In my opinion, regardless of the system, the game has pretty much always been fun.

Apart from the time around A17/18 when they gave perfectly good food a chance to make you ill. That I hated!

I modded it back in and yes, I can tell you I miss it. Me and some friends have been playing Legacy Console edition on the xbox last week and this week to celebrate yknow LDB. And let me tell you as unpolished ans buggy and junky as that version is, its insanely fun.

That being said, what I dislike about this system the most is melee and ranged weapons are forced into builds. I cant just make a fisticuff shotgun build like I can with LBD easily.

Plus, LBD gives me more reason to play 7D2D. I want to invest time into my worlds. I already feel like progression is a bit too fast, endgame too soon and too easy. Let me take my time, build up my skills. Invest my time so each skill is decent. I don't mind keeping a lot of it point investment too, like Pain resistance which was originally a LBD skill that was painful for obvious reasons to level up. But having some skills LBD, and some not should be a good compromise. I would stop complaining if all they gave us was just weapon skills.

 

[ALEXZANDER]

I modded it back in and yes, I can tell you I miss it. Me and some friends have been playing Legacy Console edition on the xbox last week and this week to celebrate yknow LDB. And let me tell you as unpolished ans buggy and junky as that version is, its insanely fun.

That being said, what I dislike about this system the most is melee and ranged weapons are forced into builds. I cant just make a fisticuff shotgun build like I can with LBD easily.

Plus, LBD gives me more reason to play 7D2D. I want to invest time into my worlds. I already feel like progression is a bit too fast, endgame too soon and too easy. Let me take my time, build up my skills. Invest my time so each skill is decent. I don't mind keeping a lot of it point investment too, like Pain resistance which was originally a LBD skill that was painful for obvious reasons to level up. But having some skills LBD, and some not should be a good compromise. I would stop complaining if all they gave us was just weapon skills.

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

Ok, sorry, but I have to say this...

Did you sign any special commercial agreement with TFP?
Are you getting paid as a TFP Agent in the games market?

Because the way you're talking sounds like... "since I praised a game I like to my friends and acquaintances and they bought it, I expect some kind of reward because I did that"?

So, by that same reasoning, if you now start talking trash about the game and make some people quit or not buy it, you should be sued by TFP for damages?

See how silly that sounds?
That's called entitlement.

I’ve never told anyone that this game isn’t worth buying or that I wouldn’t recommend it. My opinion hasn’t changed in years. It’s still the best survival game on the market. Your point of view is different from mine. You like the current system and that’s fine, I respect that, but I see it a bit differently. You probably wouldn’t complain the way I do now if we still had “learn by doing” like we used to. Maybe you would.
I don’t think I’m entitled to anything, but many people have been ignored for years because they didn’t like that “learn by doing” was removed. Everywhere I look, on Reddit and YouTube, there are posts from people saying they want “learn by doing” back. When they saw Joel’s comments, they were happy, just like me. But unfortunately, this only applies to crafting, which isn’t the same.
I feel a bit disappointed. I do like these changes, but “learn by doing” for action skills is missing. Is it really too much to just end this endless debate and make it happen?
I’ve bought DLCs myself and I bring a lot of friends to play. That doesn’t mean I think I deserve anything. Buying these things doesn’t give me special privileges, but I have the same value as any player who buys the game later. I continue to support the game and spend my money on it. There are people who bought it multiple times and might want the same things I do, and from what I’ve seen, they do.

 

[Jost Amman]

I modded it back in and yes, I can tell you I miss it. Me and some friends have been playing Legacy Console edition on the xbox last week and this week to celebrate yknow LDB. And let me tell you as unpolished ans buggy and junky as that version is, its insanely fun.

That being said, what I dislike about this system the most is melee and ranged weapons are forced into builds. I cant just make a fisticuff shotgun build like I can with LBD easily.

Plus, LBD gives me more reason to play 7D2D. I want to invest time into my worlds. I already feel like progression is a bit too fast, endgame too soon and too easy. Let me take my time, build up my skills. Invest my time so each skill is decent. I don't mind keeping a lot of it point investment too, like Pain resistance which was originally a LBD skill that was painful for obvious reasons to level up. But having some skills LBD, and some not should be a good compromise. I would stop complaining if all they gave us was just weapon skills.

But you don't need LBD to do that.
I would support weapon skills being moved to the General Perks Tab.

The difference is that most weapons make sense under the attribute they're in.

I would expect a Tank role being mainly under the Fortitude attribute, as I would expect a Strong brute using Clubs, or an accurate person to use a Spear and a Rifle, or a Nerdy person to come up with some weird weapon that gives you a shock on contact and use auto-turrets.

IF they move the weapons skills outside of the attributes I, to the least, expect they'll keep tied to the attributes the weapon perks that each attribute tree gives to their respective trademark weapons. So, for example, if you ONLY invest in leveling up the weapon skill by itself, you get the standard damage bonus for each level. But if you also level up the associated attribute, THEN you'll also get the perk bonuses associated to that attribute/weapon (e.g.: faster reload, better chance of dismemberment and so on...).

I could get behind this kind of change.

 

[stallionsden]

For any game it is perfectly normal to have ex players who used to play and have now uninstalled. What is often forgotten is that there are now more players who never played A16 than there ever were players at the time of A16. Most current players don't even pay attention to the drama that unfolds online. If there were realism/LBD liking players who left and never came back as you claim then they were easily replaced and exceeded by players who never played LBD and have only ever known skillpoint spending.

View attachment 37979


Also, feel free to ask me about any decisions made from A17 to 1.0 and I'll be happy to explain them to you....

I like how people just make up numbers to suit their argument lol. Or apparently known the reason why one uninstalled the game.

 

[meganoth]

It is not "the thing." If I stop buying their stuff, sure two other people might still, but more importantly four people might not.
Besides, the intention of my post is not to send TFP into negatives. It would be ridiculous to think I alone could do such a thing. All I am saying is that the thoughts of veteran consumers have much more significance than made to believe. Eventually there will be a shortage of new players to please and all that will be left are veterans. It might not happen by the time this game is 100% finalized, but it will happen.

This thing about "their vision" is silly at this point. Their vision changes and has changed.

Veterans are simply players who are staying a long time with the game and every new player can be a potential veteran if he likes the game. The shortage will only come if the percentage of players new to the game who then stay with the game goes down dramatically.

Yes, the group of veterans are a very important part of the game's environment and its health, but nothing says they need to be ONLY from the group that was here since the kickstarter or alpha 1 or any alpha you decide is the cutoff point. The group of veterans is always changing because even veterans who like the current version of the game can eventually tire of the game and leave.

And I don't want to diminish your or anyone else's contribution to the game. There are players who bought the game multiple times or convinced their friends to play it as well and TFP is surely thankful for them. But for veterans who normally played upwards of 500 hours I would still say the same, they still have made a very good deal.
I payed once on the kickstarter and played over 3700 hours. I still don't think I should have more than 1 vote if there ever was a ballot for the direction the game should take.
In fact I would hate if they made a ballot because there would have been a good chance this would be a predominantely PvP game if they had done that a few years ago

 

[Scyris]

I hope it goes back to sort of like a16.4 where harvesting tools and weapons were not locked to a stat and you'd level up the skill by using it, and that would determine what level of relevant perks like miner 69'er and motherload you can learn with harvesting tools. Can keep crafting quality still by magazine, I just would like weapons and harvesting/salvage tools decoupled from stats. You can even add the headshot bonus in with the action skill. We don't need action skills for like armor, healing etc they can stay as is.

I dispise the current stat system as it forces you down certain paths to be optimal, and if you don't wanna go down that path you have a much worse experience in the game overall. Str and Int are still the 2 most important stats pretty much. Str for miner 69'er/motherload, and int for int mastery, physican, and the barter perks

 

[Jost Amman]

I hope it goes back to sort of like a16.4 where harvesting tools and weapons were not locked to a stat and you'd level up the skill by using it, and that would determine what level of relevant perks like miner 69'er and motherload you can learn with harvesting tools. Can keep crafting quality still by magazine, I just would like weapons and harvesting/salvage tools decoupled from stats. You can even add the headshot bonus in with the action skill. We don't need action skills for like armor, healing etc they can stay as is.

I dispise the current stat system as it forces you down certain paths to be optimal, and if you don't wanna go down that path you have a much worse experience in the game overall. Str and Int are still the 2 most important stats pretty much. Str for miner 69'er/motherload, and int for int mastery, physican, and the barter perks

Have you ever heard of asymmetrical RPG game play?
That's the VISION behind the Attribute perks.

Min/maxers of course see this as just a forced path to achieve what THEY think it's "the best way to play".
All those that are asking for a bland, LBD based, all-round balanced action-based progression, are simply trying to change the game AT ITS CORE.