Lax
Survivor
Probably the most important statement made in this whole discussion.
Swapping Armor Sets
- Thread starter smedic55
- Start date
Jost Amman
Hunter
I also vaguely remember them saying something along those lines... but since armor sets have been added and there's no armor hot swapping feature, we should do well to remind them (maybe in a different topic).
theFlu
Hunter
The way the design "suggests" that, is purely UI-tedium. The armor bonus mechanic has an optimum at some level of swapping, and the counterbalance is your tolerance of inventory bull■■■■. The rest is sandboxing; you Can do things, but that's not from the design, that's from you creating your own rules.
It's a bit like making you have to fill your bike tires every 50 meters, or you'll drop down to walking speed. You can hop off, clickety click the pump action a few times, and drive on. You won't save a Lot of time, but you'll save some. Ain't nobody using a bike at that point. Except some will as it still has more cargo space. (And it'd fix the issue of being mostly invulnerable on a bike, so now I'm afraid of posting this for giving them ideas...)
I do care how it actually plays too; and how it actually plays is weird. You'll ignore most armor sets entirely, use one of three actual options and supplement with two extra pieces. Basically regardless of your build. The design leads to that, and it feels like a waste of armor sets.
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I got the idea, but I don't see the point of requiring the swapping at that stage. It'd be like having to swap between the biome survival gears by clicking them vs now when you don't have to.
spud42
Scavenger
personally im not bothered by armor sets. not one of them gives me what i like for my playstyle.
Assasins hood,scav outfit,comando gloves and ranger boots. this gives me an allround boost to what i need.
what i find the most min/max thing is the forgetting elixer. with this there is no consequence for where you put your points as you level up. spend a few dukes and reset all you stats. wonder whos going to bite on that one !
i dont use the candies, or power strokes but i dont come on here and cry foul about people who do use them or whine about it being bad design, or unrealistic. there are a few things i dont like about the game and what changed since aplha 10... but TFP have allowed me to turn those off or simply ignore them. at the end of the day its a game and supposed to be fun. if you are not having fun then stop playing and stop trying to get the game changed . after 3500 hours of play this is still the only game i play.
Assasins hood,scav outfit,comando gloves and ranger boots. this gives me an allround boost to what i need.
what i find the most min/max thing is the forgetting elixer. with this there is no consequence for where you put your points as you level up. spend a few dukes and reset all you stats. wonder whos going to bite on that one !
i dont use the candies, or power strokes but i dont come on here and cry foul about people who do use them or whine about it being bad design, or unrealistic. there are a few things i dont like about the game and what changed since aplha 10... but TFP have allowed me to turn those off or simply ignore them. at the end of the day its a game and supposed to be fun. if you are not having fun then stop playing and stop trying to get the game changed . after 3500 hours of play this is still the only game i play.
theFlu
Hunter
Stop playing the game, instead of trying to get it improved? How about you just don't read the forum if you can't deal with opinions?
You don't use power strikes? .. And you're here telling people they're wrong? Sadly, confidence doesn't correlate with correctness ...
Kire
Scavenger
I agree with you there tbh, I used the elixer a lot myself and if we get the option in sandbox i might disable it. I was thinking of starting a new game to try another weapon but then i was like, wait i can just respec and try it right now! and then afterwards i didn't feel like starting a new one anymore
waiting for 3.0
Roland
Community Moderator
You are only seeing it from your perspective of using the UI to swap outfits as the situation dictates for maximum bonuses. That is not the perspective I was posting. The perspective I was posting was that you keep and wear one set of armor for an entire playthrough. That has zero UI-tedium. It's almost like choosing your profession except that you do it as you play instead of before you start playing. Then you stick to that.
I don't do it BECAUSE it is tedious to swap out armor pieces to frequently and am trying to avoid that. I do it because one avenue that the design suggests is asymmetrical play from session to session.
That is only true if you plan to play the game only once ever or if you plan to play it 50 times through but always choose the same outfit every 50 times because you perceive there is one set that is the best and you can't not choose the best. I have played through the game multiple times and chose different armor each time. Nothing will be ignored or wasted eventually and every playthrough is unique.
IzPrebuilt
Survivor
I stopped using the Elixer as well, I think it makes the game too easy and removes replay value because it goes from "picking a build" and more to like progressing through the builds within a playthrough because one is obviously way better at the start and then half those perks are useless by the end.I agree with you there tbh, I used the elixer a lot myself and if we get the option in sandbox i might disable it. I was thinking of starting a new game to try another weapon but then i was like, wait i can just respec and try it right now! and then afterwards i didn't feel like starting a new one anymore
If I'm going to minmax by dumping like 6 points into lockpicking just to ever get forge aheads I should at least have to suffer the consequence of that for the rest of the playthrough with my now USELESS perk.
Much like traders I don't necessarily need an option to disable them because I can just choose to drop them but it'd be nice for making servers and stuff where you want to enforce a rule like that.
theFlu
Hunter
Well, it is what I've been posting about, the mechanics of the game. You can roleplay on pen and paper; you don't need a $40 product for that. I'm not talking about roleplay, I'm talking about the mechanics.
I'm NOT talking about roleplay, I'm talking about mechanics. The mechanics that are too cumbersome for YOU to utilize; you agree that the mechanic is balanced around tedium.
WHY are you force-feeding me your roleplay?
Roland
Community Moderator
This is how I would characterize the armor sets as well. Swapping them endlessly for each situation is like drinking the elixer. Stick to one or two for a playthrough and the replay value climbs because you're excited to try a couple of new sets the next time you play.
Roland
Community Moderator
Seems like you're force-feeding yourself a way of playing that brings you misery....
I'm talking about the mechanic of the game-- that being armor pieces that grant specific bonuses for specific activities and players can wear those pieces and gain access to those bonuses while they wear them. That is the mechanic. Period. Any interpretation that this mechanic means a player is supposed to undress and redress before and after every different action is just that: an interpretation and belief about how to play the mechanic. You believe that the mechanic dictates the player should swap clothes to maintain the most efficient buffs for everything all the time but don't like it because that requires too much UI icon swapping. I believe the mechanic allows for several playstyles of which yours is just one and mine is just one.
The way you are choosing to play is not the mechanic nor does the mechanic force that play upon you. That is all in your head and heart as a player. If it were actually true that the mechanic dictated the style of play you describe for yourself, then everyone would do it. But that isn't the case. And contrary to your opinion, there are people who don't do it for reasons other than avoiding the tedious UI icon swapping mini-game.
theFlu
Hunter
I've said few words of the way I play; and only for being prompted. Has nothing to do with the design flaw in the game.
The design flaw is that the game makes players to outright choose that some armor sets are worthless; some would be worthy, but just way too cumbersome while some are generally useful.
Whichever subset of armors I place in each bucket isn't really the point.
Interpretation? There are 4 lights. Is it an interpretation that there are 4 lights?
Supposed to? If the interrogator intended there to be 5 lights, does that mean there are 5? Or 4? Intent of the design merely informs the implementation, but for some reason, someone installed 4 lights here.
There are 4 lights. The design is separate from the intent of the design, is separate from my reaction to the design, is separate to the way I play.
There are 4 lights.
Roland
Community Moderator
So you get to be Picard in this conversation and I am the Cardassian? Whatever...
It's clear that you see your interpretation of the purpose of the armor pieces with different stat bonuses as the only actual reality and so intrinsically part of the mechanic itself that there can be no coming together of the minds. Be at ease. Return to your ship. It doesn't matter to me what you believe. I just don't want another armor overhaul because the way it is now is great and there are so many other systems I want them to prioritize. No system will please everyone and I guess this one is not your cup of Earl Grey.
theFlu
Hunter
That's probably honest; heck I might agree with you. Why didn't you lead with that instead of trying to make me close my eyes and imagine that the game is better than it is?
EDIT: And I picked Picard just because that scene fits - I'm describing a part of reality as I see it, and being subjected to .. other "interpretations". In no way I'm claiming any other relation to the OG, and especially not the enfeebled modern reimagination ...
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Uncle Al
Survivor
Technically true, but I think it's fair to expect a game designer to force hard, meaningful choices without requiring the players to formulate their own 'house rules' to ensure choices are both meaningful and hard.
Armour bonuses are inherently problematic as soon as they start buffing an 'activity' rather than generic damage, speed etc. bonuses. Where the buff is to something that has one or more attributes from this list, you have problems:
- You do it infrequently
- You do it close to your base
- You do for a continuous period that's at least measured in minutes, then stop doing it for a similar or longer period
There was some attempt to address this by putting things like 'increased chance for seeds in loot' on the farmer gear, so the armour makes you a better farmer even when you're not farming, but so far those type of bonuses have such a minor impact they're irrelevant.
Because armour swapping is such a logical approach for dedicated tasks, especially tasks around the home, the design space is very restricted as to how good bonuses can be.
Personally I'd love it if armour buffs were both so impactful and so restricted that choice of armour was like favouring one attribute. You get almost a totally different playthrough experience depending on what you go with.
There are ways to do that, but the current design doesn't seem to leverage them.
Why not have worthwhile armour piece and set bonuses, but you only get the buff when you're wearing the armour at dawn? No more swapping, you set your buffs for a day.
Or have all the resource gathering sets have no combat bonuses, but they grant a stacking buff to mining/farming/salvaging/whatever every time you earn a kill while wearing the set.
Those are just a couple of examples off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other, better approaches.
The current approach massively encourages armour swapping, which also encouraging avoiding ALL armour sets until Q3 or so - Q6 primative is almost certainly the better option up to then. Putting at least as big a jump in performance between no bonus and Q1 as you see going from Q5 to Q6 seems a way better way of doing it than 'keep bonuses pretty awful until Q6'. The ONLY set that gets it right is lumberjack, where a full Q1 set doubles your wood harvest. Choosing and wearing an armour set should feel impactful, surely?
Roland
Community Moderator
for you. The way your brain works. I feel zero pressure to swap. I feel zero pressure to wear a complete set and often wear a mixed set for most of the game based on what I find.
You are presenting the idea that the mechanic encourages armor swapping as a foregone conclusion for everybody (I guess assuming everybody thinks like you do). I assure you that I am not spending any mental energy holding myself back from swapping into a new armor piece for that extra boos before I do something. Most of the time I don't even think about what I'm wearing.
I'm not the only one which means that the massive temptation to swap armor pieces comes from within your own self rather than from the design. If it came from the design it would affect everyone.
Crater Creator
Super Moderator
theFlu
Hunter
Cross-quoting with the expectation of belonging here:
Priorities are their own thing, I wouldn't mind giving TFP another excuse to push bandits further (they might need it); but I'd be happy to get some sort of a good logic to this along the story content additions ...
And .. fixing this issue (in a smart way) would not diminish the experience for the people who don't care. At least not necessarily. And also kinda by definition... they don't care
Priorities are their own thing, I wouldn't mind giving TFP another excuse to push bandits further (they might need it); but I'd be happy to get some sort of a good logic to this along the story content additions ...
Uncle Al
Survivor
If it makes it clearer I'm happier to use 'grants mechanical advantage' as distinct from 'encourages'.
I was using 'encourages' in that sense, and totally accept the degree to which mechanical advantage affects an individual persons gameplay is down to them.
That said, I don't think 'you don't understand that everyone actually just does their own thing and ignores mechancial advantage' is a tenable viewpoint. You can claim that you're 'unpressured' but that's just because the mechanical advantage in this case is under the threshold you're willing to tolerate. If not swapping armour guaranteed you automatically died every minute, I guarantee you'd be swapping armour. Or more likely we'd all stop playing as the game would probably be horrible.
Personally I don't swap armour much. I do believe that the ability to do it influences the design of the armour pieces and set bonuses, though, and is one of the reasons they're generally uninspiring.
I've never heard of or met anyone who genuinely goes into 7DTD to roleplay using a specific armour set. It's even hard to believe seeing you write about it.
I did a joke playthrough once where I decided to commit to playing as a farmer. Single player, insane, no skills points spent on combat, just used my level 1 bone knife to beat up ferals at night. I did it specifically as a challenge playthrough, being intentionally sub-optimal. Normal people don't clear out a POI on night 1 on insane using only a bone knife.
Every other time I've played, with every player I've played with, in the new armour system we always use appropriate gear for the situation. Because that's how real life works. You put on your steel-capped boots and hard-hat on a construction site. You wear light clothes that dry quickly when you go swimming. Shirt and tie in the office, etc.
Switching clothes per activity is literally how humans do things in real life, so why on Earth would we only wear 1 outfit for months in 7dtd??
I genuinely can't wrap my head around your line of thinking.
If the game was designed so that a player was supposed to commit to 1 armour set, the mechanics would encourage or enforce that. Or at the very least there'd be an in-game mention of that. To even be exposed to the idea of only having one armour set, you'd have to be a long-time player and intentionally seek out these ideas from the devs themselves. Which 99% of players aren't going to do. And that 1% who will, they most likely already played enough to naturally come to the conclusion that the game's mechanics (and real life logic) encourage switching armour sets.