Suggestions Regarding the Map

[Riamus]

That being said it seems like the over-arching sentiment is that cities offer so much value there isn't a need or reason to explore. People like exploring so I still suggest there be some incentive structure behind it to make exploring worth the effort and time.

I think that is only a minor reason for not exploring. Yes, everything you need is there, but even if that wasn't true, there just isn't any real incentive to explore. There aren't hidden treasures to find. There aren't unique and interesting areas on a map to discover. Sure, finding a nice river or mountain or canyon or something is nice, but not that big of a deal. There just isn't anything truly unique to find or see.

Most games with good exploration give you some reason to do so. Part of that is through hand crafted maps with will designed areas to explore. You can get that, to a point, with have crafted maps in this game, but most use randomly generated maps. Try playing a will crafted map from someone like Grimlock and I think you will find explain to be worthwhile. Or games with good exploration do it through use of hidden secrets or unique items that are hard or impossible to find without exploring.

In the end, this game isn't designed to offer really unique areas. Maybe they will do something with the legendary/unique equipment they said they will add. Perhaps making it so you can only find one of each somewhere on the map, without it being just RNG in any container, though I doubt we will see that. And I don't think an infinite map adds anything beyond just a large map. You get the same kinds of locations, so it doesn't improve exploration.

 

[Blue mame]

I played the infinite map version, I've been playing for many years 7D2D, so I know what you're talking about.

But don't confuse the excitement of the novelty with that feature being so dramatically better than what we have.
As I said before, sometimes we see things in a different light with our mind's eyes, and maybe that's true for you.
But in my opinion for the majority of (new) players, infinite maps will only add boredom or even chaos to their gameplay.

Right now there's a definite progression because we have just one place on the map where we can find each biome and each trader.
Imagine an infinite map where biomes can be found multiple times all over and the same trader appear 10x more like the clone army.
I think it would also be confusing without actually adding anything new.

And I know it would be optional... but you know players (especially younger ones) if something is available they want to try it, and then they will probably complain about it, and ask for it to be expanded with new options, and so on and so forth. Feature creep.

As I mentioned earlier, fixed maps are a given, so bringing back true random maps is bound to be effective. It’s just one more option. To be honest, when I first started playing, there were no random maps—just Navezgane. But once the Random Gen maps were released, I became completely hooked, and so did my friends. At our peak, there were over 30 of us exploring and battling each other in Random Gen at the same time. Those were some truly carefree days.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 12:15 PM

It actually is very nice having multiple of each biome on a map. I do that with Teragon. Rather than one huge biome, I get smaller ones that give far more variety to the map. However, I don't see any value in an "infinite" map. I won't play on a map larger than 8k as it is in my 2 player games. There's no reason to do so unless you have a large group of people playing at once.

Generally speaking, the more a given ecosystem is fragmented on the map, the smaller it becomes. I’m not sure why, but I don’t like ecosystems that are too small—they just feel so unreal to me.

 

[Blue mame]

I've been thinking of little else all along. That and the means to level in the wild. Seems to me those cabins could be saved for mountaintops and slopes; some kind of small grid, much like a town grid, could be created for that smattering of rural housing on either side of the main roads with the occasional country store/gas station, etc. along with stretches of wilderness in between those and the towns/cities.

RWG will never rival hand-placing assets for that sort of thing, but I'd think something like the above would be feasible rather than RWG just having endless stretches of nothing, with those isolated dirt roads to single POIs dotted about. Vast stretches of nothingness punctuated by towns and cities does not an "open world" make. At least it doesn't have corners filled nothing but a single mushroom like Elden Ring, but 7 Days could probably use its own forts and rises (of a sort).

Navezgane itself could use a little help, imo, e.g. not having a Savage Country that looks like it should be in the city all by itself down the road from that tiny cluster of buildings, including the cabinet store, Bear Den, etc. That older, SC store attached to a post office(?) would look more natural there, imo.

Neither looks like any rural countryside bordering on wilderness I've ever seen.

There’s nothing wrong with relying on cities, but treating a city as the ultimate goal is simply unreasonable. I remember how we used to have to constantly search for cities to upgrade our gear. But in the current version of the game, that’s no longer necessary—you can get everything you need just by staying in one city. It’s lost that post-apocalyptic feel it once had. Some might argue, “Well, just use the 1% loot option.” But that’s downright inhumane. It’s a problem with the game mechanics.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 12:23 PM

I've been thinking of little else all along. That and the means to level in the wild. Seems to me those cabins could be saved for mountaintops and slopes; some kind of small grid, much like a town grid, could be created for that smattering of rural housing on either side of the main roads with the occasional country store/gas station, etc. along with stretches of wilderness in between those and the towns/cities.

RWG will never rival hand-placing assets for that sort of thing, but I'd think something like the above would be feasible rather than RWG just having endless stretches of nothing, with those isolated dirt roads to single POIs dotted about. Vast stretches of nothingness punctuated by towns and cities does not an "open world" make. At least it doesn't have corners filled nothing but a single mushroom like Elden Ring, but 7 Days could probably use its own forts and rises (of a sort).

Navezgane itself could use a little help, imo, e.g. not having a Savage Country that looks like it should be in the city all by itself down the road from that tiny cluster of buildings, including the cabinet store, Bear Den, etc. That older, SC store attached to a post office(?) would look more natural there, imo.

Neither looks like any rural countryside bordering on wilderness I've ever seen.

I remember that we used to view cities as dangerous zones, and we would always build our bases far away from them. Maybe it was because we were new to the game back then, but it felt very much like a post-apocalyptic scenario—or perhaps it was a reminder of some real-world threat that once existed. I’m not sure if this is progress or regression, but people—myself included—now prefer to build around cities, as it’s more convenient that way.

 

[Blue mame]

I think that is only a minor reason for not exploring. Yes, everything you need is there, but even if that wasn't true, there just isn't any real incentive to explore. There aren't hidden treasures to find. There aren't unique and interesting areas on a map to discover. Sure, finding a nice river or mountain or canyon or something is nice, but not that big of a deal. There just isn't anything truly unique to find or see.

Most games with good exploration give you some reason to do so. Part of that is through hand crafted maps with will designed areas to explore. You can get that, to a point, with have crafted maps in this game, but most use randomly generated maps. Try playing a will crafted map from someone like Grimlock and I think you will find explain to be worthwhile. Or games with good exploration do it through use of hidden secrets or unique items that are hard or impossible to find without exploring.

In the end, this game isn't designed to offer really unique areas. Maybe they will do something with the legendary/unique equipment they said they will add. Perhaps making it so you can only find one of each somewhere on the map, without it being just RNG in any container, though I doubt we will see that. And I don't think an infinite map adds anything beyond just a large map. You get the same kinds of locations, so it doesn't improve exploration.

The rush of excitement you feel when you see it is a key part of the experience—just like the first shotgun you get after cracking open a safe, it brings you a sense of pleasure and relief.

 

[Krunch]

I played the infinite map version, I've been playing for many years 7D2D, so I know what you're talking about.

But don't confuse the excitement of the novelty with that feature being so dramatically better than what we have.
As I said before, sometimes we see things in a different light with our mind's eyes, and maybe that's true for you.
But in my opinion for the majority of (new) players, infinite maps will only add boredom or even chaos to their gameplay.

Right now there's a definite progression because we have just one place on the map where we can find each biome and each trader.
Imagine an infinite map where biomes can be found multiple times all over and the same trader appear 10x more like the clone army.
I think it would also be confusing without actually adding anything new.

And I know it would be optional... but you know players (especially younger ones) if something is available they want to try it, and then they will probably complain about it, and ask for it to be expanded with new options, and so on and so forth. Feature creep.

I suggest a happy-medium solution to this would be to simply connect the East/West sides of a map of whatever size and run radiation along top and bottom or the like. Doing that in combination with the right biome presets will definitely gives maps a less linear boxy feel without too much extra work.

Another important point I find missing in this thread is the changed or changing state of POIs post A20. While it may seem like towns and cities feel samey now, you need to consider the evolution of the set in the time-span since the introduction of the tile system. As the core set has come up to speed, you are seeing whole new 'filler' type POIs coming out in sets. As more of those are released, you'll see more overall variety I feel like.

 

[Kire]

I actually had no idea the maps used to be infinite, i always thought it was something like 10km x 10km. But was it really better than what we got now? I remember having these really annoying cliffs and messed up terrain everywhere between the cities, like a sudden 100 meter drop next to a road or giant empty fields. At least now you can control the amount of lakes/rivers/mountains etc and they all blend in nicely

There’s nothing wrong with relying on cities, but treating a city as the ultimate goal is simply unreasonable. I remember how we used to have to constantly search for cities to upgrade our gear.

Because there were only like 2-3 decent POI's to loot, the rest was just a few houses with nothing going on inside lol

 

[Kire]

View attachment 38706

Oh you're using a translator, i was wondering why everything you posted sounds like it was made with AI

 

[Vaeliorin]

I actually had no idea the maps used to be infinite, i always thought it was something like 10km x 10km. But was it really better than what we got now? I remember having these really annoying cliffs and messed up terrain everywhere between the cities, like a sudden 100 meter drop next to a road or giant empty fields. At least now you can control the amount of lakes/rivers/mountains etc and they all blend in nicely



Because there were only like 2-3 decent POI's to loot, the rest was just a few houses with nothing going on inside lol

Those weird things were what we call character. And there basically aren't rivers or lakes now, which is the suckiest thing (to me) about the current RWG.

 

[bdubyah]

Yeah, not having real rivers is a bummer. Faatal has mentioned them a few times so hoping at some point they add proper ones back in. Would be cool if they could tie them into the existing tiles that have little rivers/streams running through them somehow.

 

[Blue mame]

Oh you're using a translator, i was wondering why everything you posted sounds like it was made with AI

Yes, please use a translation tool; otherwise, I won’t be able to communicate with you.lol

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:35 PM

I actually had no idea the maps used to be infinite, i always thought it was something like 10km x 10km. But was it really better than what we got now? I remember having these really annoying cliffs and messed up terrain everywhere between the cities, like a sudden 100 meter drop next to a road or giant empty fields. At least now you can control the amount of lakes/rivers/mountains etc and they all blend in nicely



Because there were only like 2-3 decent POI's to loot, the rest was just a few houses with nothing going on inside lol

As mentioned earlier, an abundance of material goods isn’t necessarily a good thing. Cities today are getting better and better, but they’ve lost that apocalyptic atmosphere. I’m certain that today’s cities are excellent, yet the atmosphere they project is gone.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:37 PM

Those weird things were what we call character. And there basically aren't rivers or lakes now, which is the suckiest thing (to me) about the current RWG.

Yes, it was precisely those imperfections that created the atmosphere of the place at the time; the mountain and the sheer cliffs were absolutely stunning.

 

[Blue mame]

Yeah, not having real rivers is a bummer. Faatal has mentioned them a few times so hoping at some point they add proper ones back in. Would be cool if they could tie them into the existing tiles that have little rivers/streams running through them somehow.

And then there was that lake, which used to be as vast as the ocean. I remember my friends and I spent half a month building a platform on the water’s surface to serve as our safe haven in the apocalypse. Then we kept building a road all the way to the shore.

 

[warmer]

i've play with no loot respawn and I have never fully explored a 10km map.
you can make a 16x16km map in Teragon.
if 256 SqKm isn't enough of a map, you need to touch grass.

 

[Jost Amman]

Hi @Blue mame , can I respectfully ask something?
Please, please, change your avatar picture!

I hate that guy's face! Every time I see it makes me want to punch him in the face for some reason!
I want to reply to your questions and observations... I really want!
But then I see that face...

I'm not a violent man, I assure you, but that face...
/jk

Regarding the cities problem... why don't you just generate a map with a very low setting for towns and cities?
Have you ever tried? I mean... custom maps are available for a reason.

 

[Dead Smarty]

if 256 SqKm isn't enough of a map, you need to touch grass.

Brilliant idea: 32x32 Prairie biome. Would that be grass enough to touch?

 

[Blue mame]

Hi @Blue mame , can I respectfully ask something?
Please, please, change your avatar picture!

I hate that guy's face! Every time I see it makes me want to punch him in the face for some reason!
I want to reply to your questions and observations... I really want!
But then I see that face...

I'm not a violent man, I assure you, but that face...
/jk

Regarding the cities problem... why don't you just generate a map with a very low setting for towns and cities?
Have you ever tried? I mean... custom maps are available for a reason.

Of course, to show my sincerity, I changed my profile picture right away. I tried reducing the number of cities, but that didn’t solve the problem. How can I put this? I’ll take screenshots of two different environments to compare later, and then you’ll understand.

 

[Blue mame]

The cities in A15 always have a post-apocalyptic feel to them. The cities in the later V2.6 update are beautiful, but they lack that post-apocalyptic atmosphere.

 

[Blue mame]

The environment in A15 is better because it makes more sense to have mountains and water. The current fixed map lacks these elements. Better mountains, better rivers, better lakes

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

@Blue mame
You are on a PC? So, from your last post I would say, ask one of the modders
that is proficient in the transfer process, for the destroyed pois, for a quick tutorial.

The game is essentially a mod, that was designed to be remodded, all they did is give
you the tools, and assets to manipulate any aspect for yourself. To make it feel like your
own. I understand your desire, but I also understand why it had to be done. Just temporarily
look up all of Faatal's posts, and it will paint a picture.

Environment is my main focus and has been since i started. I have not used the random gen
for 7 years, not because I think it is bad, but because they gave me the tools to make it comfortable
for me. So that is what I do. Plus like posted above there are 3 modder apps, to help simplify it, the
majority of the rest is xml, and painting.

From reading and looking at your pics, I would say Nitrogen would put you on the path you seek.
Only because it follows the terrain layout when perlin noise was the primary generator. You can gen
the mountains, and auto populate the water, that you wrote about.

Then after experimenting a bit move to king gen then teragon depending on how in depth you want
to go. All you need to do is make sure the list of pois in the app is identical to the folder, Move a few
sliders and gen your map. Once you get your terrain the way you like, Poi distribution, Waterways,
landbridges, then progress to transferring the pois, you may have to replace some blocks and textures,
but customization takes time. There are poi packs, that you can pick and choose from along the way.
Make it a labor of love project, and it won't feel like work.

The image of the wasteland, can be achieved in biomes.xml just by using spectrum wasteland, or on
the fly in console by typing Spectrum Wasteland. Making the cities feel the original way it was is by
changing the spawn timing, entitygroups, and shortening the respawn time. The possible addon Faatal
spoke of will help make that change, and not totally blow out the fps for lower processors.
In the end it will be up to you.

 

[Blue mame]

@Blue mame
You are on a PC? So, from your last post I would say, ask one of the modders
that is proficient in the transfer process, for the destroyed pois, for a quick tutorial.

The game is essentially a mod, that was designed to be remodded, all they did is give
you the tools, and assets to manipulate any aspect for yourself. To make it feel like your
own. I understand your desire, but I also understand why it had to be done. Just temporarily
look up all of Faatal's posts, and it will paint a picture.

Environment is my main focus and has been since i started. I have not used the random gen
for 7 years, not because I think it is bad, but because they gave me the tools to make it comfortable
for me. So that is what I do. Plus like posted above there are 3 modder apps, to help simplify it, the
majority of the rest is xml, and painting.

From reading and looking at your pics, I would say Nitrogen would put you on the path you seek.
Only because it follows the terrain layout when perlin noise was the primary generator. You can gen
the mountains, and auto populate the water, that you wrote about.

Then after experimenting a bit move to king gen then teragon depending on how in depth you want
to go. All you need to do is make sure the list of pois in the app is identical to the folder, Move a few
sliders and gen your map. Once you get your terrain the way you like, Poi distribution, Waterways,
landbridges, then progress to transferring the pois, you may have to replace some blocks and textures,
but customization takes time. There are poi packs, that you can pick and choose from along the way.
Make it a labor of love project, and it won't feel like work.

The image of the wasteland, can be achieved in biomes.xml just by using spectrum wasteland, or on
the fly in console by typing Spectrum Wasteland. Making the cities feel the original way it was is by
changing the spawn timing, entitygroups, and shortening the respawn time. The possible addon Faatal
spoke of will help make that change, and not totally blow out the fps for lower processors.
In the end it will be up to you.

I’ve used Nitrogen’s maps, and they are indeed better generated than TFP’s, but there aren’t enough rivers and lakes. This is probably due to the map size; if I were to add a large number of rivers and lakes, it would reduce the amount of land.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:47 AM

@Blue mame
You are on a PC? So, from your last post I would say, ask one of the modders
that is proficient in the transfer process, for the destroyed pois, for a quick tutorial.

The game is essentially a mod, that was designed to be remodded, all they did is give
you the tools, and assets to manipulate any aspect for yourself. To make it feel like your
own. I understand your desire, but I also understand why it had to be done. Just temporarily
look up all of Faatal's posts, and it will paint a picture.

Environment is my main focus and has been since i started. I have not used the random gen
for 7 years, not because I think it is bad, but because they gave me the tools to make it comfortable
for me. So that is what I do. Plus like posted above there are 3 modder apps, to help simplify it, the
majority of the rest is xml, and painting.

From reading and looking at your pics, I would say Nitrogen would put you on the path you seek.
Only because it follows the terrain layout when perlin noise was the primary generator. You can gen
the mountains, and auto populate the water, that you wrote about.

Then after experimenting a bit move to king gen then teragon depending on how in depth you want
to go. All you need to do is make sure the list of pois in the app is identical to the folder, Move a few
sliders and gen your map. Once you get your terrain the way you like, Poi distribution, Waterways,
landbridges, then progress to transferring the pois, you may have to replace some blocks and textures,
but customization takes time. There are poi packs, that you can pick and choose from along the way.
Make it a labor of love project, and it won't feel like work.

The image of the wasteland, can be achieved in biomes.xml just by using spectrum wasteland, or on
the fly in console by typing Spectrum Wasteland. Making the cities feel the original way it was is by
changing the spawn timing, entitygroups, and shortening the respawn time. The possible addon Faatal
spoke of will help make that change, and not totally blow out the fps for lower processors.
In the end it will be up to you.

I assume you’ve seen the A15 wilderness layout above; I want to achieve that kind of effect—huge lakes and rivers. And I want to be able to trace the rivers

 

[Riamus]

Teragon can make maps with large lakes and rivers if that's what you're looking for. You'll still get normal towns because it uses tiles just like RWG, but you have more control over them. With POI packs that focus on broken POI rather than mostly whole POI, you can get the towns to look more broken even with tiles, though.