Suggestions Regarding the Map

[bdubyah]

It’s great how the ruined city makes me feel like I have to bring every item I find back to base.

You know, that may be part of it I hadn't really thought of. In older versions it felt like most the POIs you came across, especially in the small cities and town were mostly ruined. There were only a few kind of intact POIs then. So while there was loot to be had, it didn't feel like it was anything too crazy. But now the cities are full of big POIs that are mostly full of loot. Maybe if the cities were mostly ruins it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[zztong]

Infinite maps were only available prior to A16; starting with A17, the maps became fixed.

Oh, that's interesting. IIRC I got the game in what was A14, but never new it was infinite. The game didn't really get "good" in my opinion until A19 and that's when I got hooked enough to play it heavily. Last summer I went back to play A16 again when folks were raving about it and the magic wasn't there, other than I did enjoy the rougher first two days. Those old maps weren't very good, but I do hear you about loot scarcity and open spaces.

 

[Vaeliorin]

IzPrebuilt did a video on the old infinite world gen a couple weeks ago.

Yeah, the cities are bad, and there were some hitches, but the rivers, lakes, and just the terrain in general were so much better and more interesting than it is now. While I started with A16, we still had interesting world (not city) generation back then. Back then, you'd go traveling cross countryside just to see what you could find. Now, it's a waste of time because all you're going to find is a lot of nothing, and maybe a POI or two that isn't really worth the effort to get to. You used to stumble across areas that were just beautiful, and you'd want to build a base there. Now, just build near the trader, because there's nothing worth looking at (even if there wasn't loot) out in the wilderness.

Honestly, I don't know why TFP don't look at some of the things that were done with Nitrogen/KingGen/Teragon and try and implement them into the game. It's kind of sad to see how much better the fan made terrain generators are/were than what's in the game by default.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

The problem now is that there are too many cities, and since they can be reset, resources are overly abundant—which is terrible for the gaming experience. There’s no sense of belonging, and no desire to explore.

I understand what you mean and that really is down to the switch from LBD to LBL. The wilderness is useless for anything other than traversal and I get the sense no one really thought about that when instituting the LBL system rather than refining what they had and/or maybe going hybrid as is being discussed now. May as well have made it an urban setting rather than an open world because only the towns and cities have the resources you'll need to level at a reasonable pace other than wood and ores. Of course, many will argue they'll stay in the wilderness anyway. Sure. Once they have high tier vehicles and can zip or fly across the map.

Don't think I would because I'd not argue for a return to prior systems I've never even played, which were apparently pretty janky, and RPG (element) aficionados don't like the idea, either, but it's just a fact that momentous change from LBD to LBL crippled wilderness areas, which account for most of the space of any map. Nothing to be done about it now, even with a hybrid system, imo. The game is nearly finished, but it doesn't feel like an open world when you have to head straight to towns and cities to get anything done.

 

[Blue mame]

Rose tinted glasses is all I'll say regarding your comment.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:55 PM

Or simply of emptiness.

You might be right; everyone has a different take on the game.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:50 PM

IzPrebuilt did a video on the old infinite world gen a couple weeks ago.

Yeah, the cities are bad, and there were some hitches, but the rivers, lakes, and just the terrain in general were so much better and more interesting than it is now. While I started with A16, we still had interesting world (not city) generation back then. Back then, you'd go traveling cross countryside just to see what you could find. Now, it's a waste of time because all you're going to find is a lot of nothing, and maybe a POI or two that isn't really worth the effort to get to. You used to stumble across areas that were just beautiful, and you'd want to build a base there. Now, just build near the trader, because there's nothing worth looking at (even if there wasn't loot) out in the wilderness.

Honestly, I don't know why TFP don't look at some of the things that were done with Nitrogen/KingGen/Teragon and try and implement them into the game. It's kind of sad to see how much better the fan made terrain generators are/were than what's in the game by default.

Yes, the game used to suffer from lag, but TFP fixed this issue in later versions. Now, buildings and player-built bases no longer cause lag due to their size. These are all very tangible improvements.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:52 PM

You know, that may be part of it I hadn't really thought of. In older versions it felt like most the POIs you came across, especially in the small cities and town were mostly ruined. There were only a few kind of intact POIs then. So while there was loot to be had, it didn't feel like it was anything too crazy. But now the cities are full of big POIs that are mostly full of loot. Maybe if the cities were mostly ruins it wouldn't be so bad.

There's an excess of loot, which is causing all players to want to build their homes near merchants. We need to break this dependency. Otherwise, it will lead to very unhealthy gameplay. This is especially true in multiplayer servers, where you can see that virtually all players are building near merchants.

 

[Blue mame]

Oh, that's interesting. IIRC I got the game in what was A14, but never new it was infinite. The game didn't really get "good" in my opinion until A19 and that's when I got hooked enough to play it heavily. Last summer I went back to play A16 again when folks were raving about it and the magic wasn't there, other than I did enjoy the rougher first two days. Those old maps weren't very good, but I do hear you about loot scarcity and open spaces.

Since each subsequent version brings significant improvements in graphics quality, you'd have to really force yourself to play the older versions

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:55 PM

I understand what you mean and that really is down to the switch from LBD to LBL. The wilderness is useless for anything other than traversal and I get the sense no one really thought about that when instituting the LBL system rather than refining what they had and/or maybe going hybrid as is being discussed now. May as well have made it an urban setting rather than an open world because only the towns and cities have the resources you'll need to level at a reasonable pace other than wood and ores. Of course, many will argue they'll stay in the wilderness anyway. Sure. Once they have high tier vehicles and can zip or fly across the map.

Don't think I would because I'd not argue for a return to prior systems I've never even played, which were apparently pretty janky, and RPG (element) aficionados don't like the idea, either, but it's just a fact that momentous change from LBD to LBL crippled wilderness areas, which account for most of the space of any map. Nothing to be done about it now, even with a hybrid system, imo. The game is nearly finished, but it doesn't feel like an open world when you have to head straight to towns and cities to get anything done.

This won’t affect the current state—the map is currently fixed, though it used to be infinite. We’re simply restoring a lost option so that everyone has a choice.

 

[Riamus]

I guess I wasn't around for "infinite" maps, but A21 era RWG was leaps and bounds better than it is now and I rolled a lot of maps testing it out. Far more variety and 0 bugs, afik, e.g. the huge holes to nowhere that appear especially near downtown city blocks and especially in the Wasteland (though not only there) that are at least a tile maybe two wide. For what? Neapolitan ice cream maps?

That is just a bug in 2.5 that is supposed to have been fixed for 2.6. I haven't tried 2.6, so don't know for sure if it was fixed or not. I don't think that's a map/RWG issue at all. I think it's just a chunk or mesh issue.

Honestly, I don't know why TFP don't look at some of the things that were done with Nitrogen/KingGen/Teragon and try and implement them into the game. It's kind of sad to see how much better the fan made terrain generators are/were than what's in the game by default.

A lot of it comes down to them wanting to keep RWG easy to use and fast. Sure, I have a LOT more control over how my maps look in Teragon, and for that reason I use Teragon for almost every map I play. However, Teragon requires a lot of time to learn how to do everything and how to adjust parameter values in a way that will give you what you're looking for. It also takes far longer to generate a map because of all of the additional options you have available. For me, that isn't a bad thing. But for the majority of players, I think having a simple (limited options) map generator that can make maps in a couple of minutes like RWG is a better option for vanilla. If people really want to have more control, it's not hard to grab Teragon and spend some time learning to use it in order to make some really great maps, or even just use a default preset without changing anything so you can make maps without spending any time learning Teragon. But although I really love using Teragon, I don't think trying to make RWG similar to Teragon would be a good idea. That doesn't mean they couldn't implement certain features that Teragon has into RWG, such as actual rivers instead of river stamps.

 

[ALEXZANDER]

Yes, I agree with you. The reason is that after switching back to the older version, I rediscovered that familiar feeling—the shattered city always makes me cherish what I see.

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Post automatically merged: Today at 12:34 AM

Since each subsequent version brings significant improvements in graphics quality, you'd have to really force yourself to play the older versions

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:55 PM

Well, back when 1.0 was only avalaible, i tried A16 and it was very easy and nice experience, also for me graphics werent as terrible as people were saying

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

There's an excess of loot, which is causing all players to want to build their homes near merchants. We need to break this dependency. Otherwise, it will lead to very unhealthy gameplay. This is especially true in multiplayer servers, where you can see that virtually all players are building near merchants.

It's apparently considered "meta" to play it that way, though I wouldn't want to. It's been mentioned before that there are too many great POIs about to be tethered to a vendor, but loot and magazines are concentrated in the towns and cities along with POIs, especially with the present RPG dungeon-style POIs, Crack-a-Books, etc., and that's town/city-wide. How would you suggest it be more evenly distributed other than wilderness? I'd think including more POIs in the wilderness might help with that, perhaps even rural stretches of main roadway with housing along the way as opposed to all single, dirt lanes with single cabins, etc., at the end, but not "infinite" maps.

You said more empty space gave you a feeling of aloneness, which I could consider more solitude, peace and quiet time to take in the views, etc., of which I've seen exceptionally few compared to A21 but -- as Vaeliorin said -- there just aren't many wilderness POIs that are even worth the time. Even Army Post No. 7 used to appear by itself in the wilderness on occasion. Now, it's stuck to town/city grids along with everything else except that occasional cabin (mostly).

Is that what you're suggesting (other than infinite maps)? Just something more going on here and there in the wilderness? Those stretches of housing now and then as opposed to mostly vast, empty space would help, imo.

 

[theFlu]

For me an infinite map size would be practically useless, as in I would not travel there "usually" - but I'd love removing that border. It's not a big deal, but knowing I'm stuck in a big sandbox does bother me a bit.

Using it to "expand" servers, as in to try and allow people to find their own corner of the world and not be camping at the same trader.. I don't think it'd really work. People might move further, but they'd just settle next to the first "free" trader. The traders would still be necessary for resetting POIs on servers, and mightily useful otherwise; the open world just can't compete.

Some nomads might just wander into the distance, but are they really playing on the server then?