Suggestions Regarding the Map

[Riamus]

That being said it seems like the over-arching sentiment is that cities offer so much value there isn't a need or reason to explore. People like exploring so I still suggest there be some incentive structure behind it to make exploring worth the effort and time.

I think that is only a minor reason for not exploring. Yes, everything you need is there, but even if that wasn't true, there just isn't any real incentive to explore. There aren't hidden treasures to find. There aren't unique and interesting areas on a map to discover. Sure, finding a nice river or mountain or canyon or something is nice, but not that big of a deal. There just isn't anything truly unique to find or see.

Most games with good exploration give you some reason to do so. Part of that is through hand crafted maps with will designed areas to explore. You can get that, to a point, with have crafted maps in this game, but most use randomly generated maps. Try playing a will crafted map from someone like Grimlock and I think you will find explain to be worthwhile. Or games with good exploration do it through use of hidden secrets or unique items that are hard or impossible to find without exploring.

In the end, this game isn't designed to offer really unique areas. Maybe they will do something with the legendary/unique equipment they said they will add. Perhaps making it so you can only find one of each somewhere on the map, without it being just RNG in any container, though I doubt we will see that. And I don't think an infinite map adds anything beyond just a large map. You get the same kinds of locations, so it doesn't improve exploration.

 

[Blue mame]

I played the infinite map version, I've been playing for many years 7D2D, so I know what you're talking about.

But don't confuse the excitement of the novelty with that feature being so dramatically better than what we have.
As I said before, sometimes we see things in a different light with our mind's eyes, and maybe that's true for you.
But in my opinion for the majority of (new) players, infinite maps will only add boredom or even chaos to their gameplay.

Right now there's a definite progression because we have just one place on the map where we can find each biome and each trader.
Imagine an infinite map where biomes can be found multiple times all over and the same trader appear 10x more like the clone army.
I think it would also be confusing without actually adding anything new.

And I know it would be optional... but you know players (especially younger ones) if something is available they want to try it, and then they will probably complain about it, and ask for it to be expanded with new options, and so on and so forth. Feature creep.

As I mentioned earlier, fixed maps are a given, so bringing back true random maps is bound to be effective. It’s just one more option. To be honest, when I first started playing, there were no random maps—just Navezgane. But once the Random Gen maps were released, I became completely hooked, and so did my friends. At our peak, there were over 30 of us exploring and battling each other in Random Gen at the same time. Those were some truly carefree days.

Post automatically merged: Today at 12:15 PM

It actually is very nice having multiple of each biome on a map. I do that with Teragon. Rather than one huge biome, I get smaller ones that give far more variety to the map. However, I don't see any value in an "infinite" map. I won't play on a map larger than 8k as it is in my 2 player games. There's no reason to do so unless you have a large group of people playing at once.

Generally speaking, the more a given ecosystem is fragmented on the map, the smaller it becomes. I’m not sure why, but I don’t like ecosystems that are too small—they just feel so unreal to me.

 

[Blue mame]

I've been thinking of little else all along. That and the means to level in the wild. Seems to me those cabins could be saved for mountaintops and slopes; some kind of small grid, much like a town grid, could be created for that smattering of rural housing on either side of the main roads with the occasional country store/gas station, etc. along with stretches of wilderness in between those and the towns/cities.

RWG will never rival hand-placing assets for that sort of thing, but I'd think something like the above would be feasible rather than RWG just having endless stretches of nothing, with those isolated dirt roads to single POIs dotted about. Vast stretches of nothingness punctuated by towns and cities does not an "open world" make. At least it doesn't have corners filled nothing but a single mushroom like Elden Ring, but 7 Days could probably use its own forts and rises (of a sort).

Navezgane itself could use a little help, imo, e.g. not having a Savage Country that looks like it should be in the city all by itself down the road from that tiny cluster of buildings, including the cabinet store, Bear Den, etc. That older, SC store attached to a post office(?) would look more natural there, imo.

Neither looks like any rural countryside bordering on wilderness I've ever seen.

There’s nothing wrong with relying on cities, but treating a city as the ultimate goal is simply unreasonable. I remember how we used to have to constantly search for cities to upgrade our gear. But in the current version of the game, that’s no longer necessary—you can get everything you need just by staying in one city. It’s lost that post-apocalyptic feel it once had. Some might argue, “Well, just use the 1% loot option.” But that’s downright inhumane. It’s a problem with the game mechanics.

Post automatically merged: Today at 12:23 PM

I've been thinking of little else all along. That and the means to level in the wild. Seems to me those cabins could be saved for mountaintops and slopes; some kind of small grid, much like a town grid, could be created for that smattering of rural housing on either side of the main roads with the occasional country store/gas station, etc. along with stretches of wilderness in between those and the towns/cities.

RWG will never rival hand-placing assets for that sort of thing, but I'd think something like the above would be feasible rather than RWG just having endless stretches of nothing, with those isolated dirt roads to single POIs dotted about. Vast stretches of nothingness punctuated by towns and cities does not an "open world" make. At least it doesn't have corners filled nothing but a single mushroom like Elden Ring, but 7 Days could probably use its own forts and rises (of a sort).

Navezgane itself could use a little help, imo, e.g. not having a Savage Country that looks like it should be in the city all by itself down the road from that tiny cluster of buildings, including the cabinet store, Bear Den, etc. That older, SC store attached to a post office(?) would look more natural there, imo.

Neither looks like any rural countryside bordering on wilderness I've ever seen.

I remember that we used to view cities as dangerous zones, and we would always build our bases far away from them. Maybe it was because we were new to the game back then, but it felt very much like a post-apocalyptic scenario—or perhaps it was a reminder of some real-world threat that once existed. I’m not sure if this is progress or regression, but people—myself included—now prefer to build around cities, as it’s more convenient that way.

 

[Blue mame]

I think that is only a minor reason for not exploring. Yes, everything you need is there, but even if that wasn't true, there just isn't any real incentive to explore. There aren't hidden treasures to find. There aren't unique and interesting areas on a map to discover. Sure, finding a nice river or mountain or canyon or something is nice, but not that big of a deal. There just isn't anything truly unique to find or see.

Most games with good exploration give you some reason to do so. Part of that is through hand crafted maps with will designed areas to explore. You can get that, to a point, with have crafted maps in this game, but most use randomly generated maps. Try playing a will crafted map from someone like Grimlock and I think you will find explain to be worthwhile. Or games with good exploration do it through use of hidden secrets or unique items that are hard or impossible to find without exploring.

In the end, this game isn't designed to offer really unique areas. Maybe they will do something with the legendary/unique equipment they said they will add. Perhaps making it so you can only find one of each somewhere on the map, without it being just RNG in any container, though I doubt we will see that. And I don't think an infinite map adds anything beyond just a large map. You get the same kinds of locations, so it doesn't improve exploration.

The rush of excitement you feel when you see it is a key part of the experience—just like the first shotgun you get after cracking open a safe, it brings you a sense of pleasure and relief.

 

[Krunch]

I played the infinite map version, I've been playing for many years 7D2D, so I know what you're talking about.

But don't confuse the excitement of the novelty with that feature being so dramatically better than what we have.
As I said before, sometimes we see things in a different light with our mind's eyes, and maybe that's true for you.
But in my opinion for the majority of (new) players, infinite maps will only add boredom or even chaos to their gameplay.

Right now there's a definite progression because we have just one place on the map where we can find each biome and each trader.
Imagine an infinite map where biomes can be found multiple times all over and the same trader appear 10x more like the clone army.
I think it would also be confusing without actually adding anything new.

And I know it would be optional... but you know players (especially younger ones) if something is available they want to try it, and then they will probably complain about it, and ask for it to be expanded with new options, and so on and so forth. Feature creep.

I suggest a happy-medium solution to this would be to simply connect the East/West sides of a map of whatever size and run radiation along top and bottom or the like. Doing that in combination with the right biome presets will definitely gives maps a less linear boxy feel without too much extra work.

Another important point I find missing in this thread is the changed or changing state of POIs post A20. While it may seem like towns and cities feel samey now, you need to consider the evolution of the set in the time-span since the introduction of the tile system. As the core set has come up to speed, you are seeing whole new 'filler' type POIs coming out in sets. As more of those are released, you'll see more overall variety I feel like.