PC So this is where roland said to go to gripe about a17 and the early release...
- Thread starter Scyris
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KhaineGB
Well-known member
Given that the current average player base of 7DTD is high 6,000's (around the 6,800 mark with some fluctuations for last month. No complete data for this month YET), I would not disqualify anything less than 1,000 for a sample size as that figure is pushing close to 20% of the active player base. Definitely anything less than 100 though. I've also only spoken to friends, acquaintances and members of various 7DTD communities... so yes, all the people I have spoken to DO or DID play the game. The reason for that is because I was curious on their opinions of FO76, if they were going to play it at all.
I also used those stats, coupled with the viewer stats on twitch to see if what I've been hearing is even slightly accurate. 7DTD only had 510-ish people watching it last night. It usually has 800+.... 1,000 is much more normal. The streamers with the most viewers (at the time of checking, which was 2:30-ish AM GMT, so approx 9:30-ish EST) had 121, 71, 59, 24 and 19. Those were the 5 right at the top of the directory which is not normal for 7DTD during the evening... at all.
And that is why I am concerned that releasing within the same week as Fallout 76 is a bad idea. It's not hyperbole in the slightest. I actually did some research and checking on how that game has impacted viewer figures (and what my friends/acquaintances/accomplices are playing right now and if they are interested in A17-E) before I made any kind of post.
As for critizicing, I did so from a logical and reasoned perspective. You replied to it with the following...
So no. Your reply did not come across as even slightly well reasoned. At the time, no counter-example was given (And you still haven't done so), no evidence was given (which you can clearly see... there's no evidence at all where-as I have now provided some numbers for you) and thus your post DID come across as the typical defensive style I've had to deal with whenever I criticise TFP in any form.
I never accused you of being impolite. I simply stated how the reply came across based on my interactions thus far on this forum. If that was not your intent, then I sincerely apologize for my interpretation of the second quote listed above.
That is also why it felt like you were "jumping down my throat", because even you have to admit you provided no evidence, no counter argument just a "my narrow group of friends" and "classic!" argument, neither of which lend themselves to discussion.So, again, that was probably a bad interpretation on MY part due to past experiences, but it basically read like "I have nothing to add, but I disagree with you and I'm gonna quote you and word my reply in a way to start a fight" for which I can only apologise for being wrong in that regard.
But surely you can see WHY I thought that.
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Jedo
New member
Ay dios mio! I've wandered into a data set/statistics argument again. Will I ever learn?
Look. This isn't about numbers and who has the better data and whose interpretation of that data is better. This is about globalizing and making absolute statements. If you want people to take your position seriously, don't use those things. They are classic signs that your argument is weak regardless of the strength of your argument. (Which, by the way, still includes all kinds of assumptions outside of the numbers, assumptions like those involving human psychology.) You have a fear that TFP's marketing won't work like they want, and that fear is based on a mixture of your perceptions. Fine. Just because you fear that does not mean that it will become reality, so don't pretend like it will. Express your fear, maybe even provide evidence that leads you to believe such, but for the love of TFP stop short of saying that it will be just like you've described.
How was my initial reply not well-reasoned? You provided zero evidence in the post I quoted, and instead said "I doubt most people" and "feedback from various friends." Then you said, "absolutely...a substantial amount." All I pointed out is that "various friends" does not equal "absolutely a substantial amount." (I used different words, but that was the thrust.) My next post tried to show you how that is so. Only after that did you provide actual, numerical evidence to back up your thinking. ("Your thinking," by the way, still is not equivalent to "the actual state of affairs.")
Let's not kid each other. Saying, "Can we please...do it in a polite...manner," is to imply that it was not polite.
I provided all the evidence and counter argument that was needed at the time. If somebody tries to equate apples and oranges, I need only point at them and say, "Those are not the same." See my point above.
You are sensitive about your position and think that people won't listen to your concern, which you have because TFP's marketing strategy has an out-sized impact on your life? You don't like that somebody pointed out (by juxtaposition, because not everything needs to be spelled out) the flaw in your statement?
KhaineGB
Well-known member
Aaaaaand that's me done then.
You cannot state that 2 lines (which I quoted) are a reasoned argument and then try to back it up. As for my fear they got the marketing wrong (though I believe Roland said it's not a marketing thing, will have to check that), it's not a fear thing. It's a concern based on me seeing AAA publishers and games doing similar stuff (games in similar genres releasing at the same times) and then going "We buggered up!"
Simple as that. Now if you want to continue trying to claim you provided evidence (you didn't) and a counter argument... for reference AGAIN...
You cannot state that 2 lines (which I quoted) are a reasoned argument and then try to back it up. As for my fear they got the marketing wrong (though I believe Roland said it's not a marketing thing, will have to check that), it's not a fear thing. It's a concern based on me seeing AAA publishers and games doing similar stuff (games in similar genres releasing at the same times) and then going "We buggered up!"
Simple as that. Now if you want to continue trying to claim you provided evidence (you didn't) and a counter argument... for reference AGAIN...
...then we're absolutely done here. What you did was basically just quote my post and go LOLNo.
gfoster610
New member
canadianbluebeer
New member
The stream thing is marketing. Normally you have to pay for advertising, this way they don't.
The target is really for new players, not those of us who already have it. Some of us will watch, some won't.
FO76: yeah, big thing, but I'm thinking more for consoles than PC at the moment. (once private servers are allowed, that may change)
Oh, I broke down and bought the damned thing night before launch, and of course they open it up a day early, AND A17E date gets announced. So, yer welcome.
(FO76 has a lvl cap of 50, so I dunno how the long term thing is gonna work for them. VERY limited budget for stash, and building. I mean stupidly limited. Those stay, people WILL switch to something else, except the asshats who like to be asshats and destroy stuff. Hence, the need for private servers)
I know I'll be swapping to 17e once it comes out, bugs and all. (will putting several hundred lights on a skyscraper that reaches to +190 with multiple timers to turn the lights on, crash the game ? (it does now) gonna find out.
)
The target is really for new players, not those of us who already have it. Some of us will watch, some won't.
FO76: yeah, big thing, but I'm thinking more for consoles than PC at the moment. (once private servers are allowed, that may change)
Oh, I broke down and bought the damned thing night before launch, and of course they open it up a day early, AND A17E date gets announced. So, yer welcome.
(FO76 has a lvl cap of 50, so I dunno how the long term thing is gonna work for them. VERY limited budget for stash, and building. I mean stupidly limited. Those stay, people WILL switch to something else, except the asshats who like to be asshats and destroy stuff. Hence, the need for private servers)
I know I'll be swapping to 17e once it comes out, bugs and all. (will putting several hundred lights on a skyscraper that reaches to +190 with multiple timers to turn the lights on, crash the game ? (it does now) gonna find out.
)
I think the thing that sucks the most about the damn streamer head start is that it's done AFTER the weekend is over. I have a job and obligations during the week and most of my game time is on the weekends. Why not drop A17e during the week and then open it up to everyone on friday?
Either way. Monday is right around the corner.
Either way. Monday is right around the corner.
Message from the old guard
For those of us that have been here since the beginning, this is like spitting in my face. If anyone "deserves" to get the game first it should be those that were here in Alpha 1, but I still see no reason not to make it an open release for everyone to enjoy for the weekend. I don't watch others play 7DTD, so it goes without saying that I will not be watching this weekend, because I am a player. Having been a supporter from the beginning I disagree with the release to select individuals. That is the kind of thing you do for an early access title's first release, i.e. A1, which was NOT the case for 7DTD A1 because it was open to ALL of the supporters. I know this won't change how TFP will release A17, but I want you all to know that we have the right to speak our minds on this, whether TFP is listening or not. We need to make sure we rally together to keep this from happening for A18, and if TFP continues to behave this way then we need to start a collective negative media campaign against them so they will know without a doubt that the over 2 million of us that have supported them along the way are the reason they have made every alpha version of this game.
With that said, bad move pimps.
For those of us that have been here since the beginning, this is like spitting in my face. If anyone "deserves" to get the game first it should be those that were here in Alpha 1, but I still see no reason not to make it an open release for everyone to enjoy for the weekend. I don't watch others play 7DTD, so it goes without saying that I will not be watching this weekend, because I am a player. Having been a supporter from the beginning I disagree with the release to select individuals. That is the kind of thing you do for an early access title's first release, i.e. A1, which was NOT the case for 7DTD A1 because it was open to ALL of the supporters. I know this won't change how TFP will release A17, but I want you all to know that we have the right to speak our minds on this, whether TFP is listening or not. We need to make sure we rally together to keep this from happening for A18, and if TFP continues to behave this way then we need to start a collective negative media campaign against them so they will know without a doubt that the over 2 million of us that have supported them along the way are the reason they have made every alpha version of this game.
With that said, bad move pimps.
Jedo
New member
I want KhaineGB to notice that I don't really have a problem with this post. I disagree with it, but aside from a few, minor "should" statements, it's just his opinion and stating what he would prefer. He even says "like spitting in my face" instead of "our face." Kudos.
Anyway, Thoddius, it's not much different than a movie premier: The media get special access and write up their thoughts, then three days later, the rest of the people get to watch. Maybe you are not the type to read movie reviews, but that doesn't change the structure of the release.
You won't buy that metaphor or understand how accurate it is, but the metaphor is there for you if you want to take it and save yourself some frustration.