PC It's all gone wrong, terribly wrong.

[theFlu]

I'm kinda butting in without reading everything, but anyway..

Survival. At the moment the best ratio for "time survived / effort spent" is probably found at "about 7h / didn't do anything". As in, start a game, crouch, go read a book. If you're a little lucky, the first thing that kills you is the 7th day horde of 3 zombies.

But, you died, so, it doesn't count?

Ok, make shovel, stone axe, get a wooden spear / bow, couple cobblestone, some small game.

Stand still on a suitable cobble pile.

Kill the night spawn dire wolves for food, fix your cobble pole after them.

I'd bet you can "survive" for ... well. Still Quite hypothetical, but forever. Hundreds of days?

I don't really like the idea of "skillfully doing nothing" being considered a good strategy either. The survival thingy should IMO imply a constant urgency to do something. Once you start playing, the game actually works, but "optimizing" your play for survival would makes the experience pretty horrible.

I know no-one is arguing you Should so this; but this is what the counterargument of "you don't have to play optimally" sounds like to me.. If I don't gain from progressing, then, why is there progress? Why are we here, just to suffer?

 

[ISPARTACUSI]

A) Put restrictions and rules in place that block min/maxers from rushing the game or

B) Allow gamers to do as they wish and people will choose to either play naturally or rush.

There's another option that Meganoth & I already talked about--give the hardcore players more advanced customization options for the difficulty settings. If we can impose limits on ourselves from the home screen, it leaves us free to explore the game more. Many players greatly enjoy learning the most efficient ways to become badass. If we can customize the rules, we'll have to adapt differently for each playthrough-->the game becomes vastly more replayable.

 

[Rotor]

Why are w e here, just to suffer?

Well that depends on your religion .

Oops wrong forum.

 

[Sal]

7 Days to Die does offer a struggle to everyone who hasn't optimized it out of their game by rushing. "Survival" gameplay is created by the threats to your life. I am saying that as an experienced player, by limiting myself and not playing the game with a focus on always taking the optimal path

The fact that you seriously don't see the issue AND contradiction within your statement here is mind-boggling.

First,  you say the game the game "offers a struggle to everyone", but then go on to say that your an experienced player and that YOU yourself limit yourself to certain guidelines.  More than once in this thread.

I purposely limit myself on quests for the sake of preserving my own fun much in the way I used to limit myself on spamming crafting or specific skill activities. 

That alone is a problem.

Sure, the game itself offers a lot of different paths but it only promotes the player to take a few of them.

It doesn't matter that we are mods. We don't have more influence in the direction of the game or what the devs implement. We don't "consider" good ideas and bring them to the attention of the devs, we are not gatekeepers in any way.

@meganoth You should tell this to Roland.  Because he runs arounds here like the gatekeeper himself whenever anyone says ANYTHING remotely negative about the game.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

@Roland
I know youve seen this video already... but it honestly boils down to this again:

videogame philosophy.

If you want to limit yourself, feel free. I don't. If a game does not challenge me without me setting arbitrary rules for myself, it is not a survival game anymore.
And I am a huge fan of being challenged and survival games.

So I disagree harshly on your "I limit myself, and so can you"

It is the devs obligation to find ways to make everything fun.
If there is an "instant win button" (and no not a consolue, but something that was purposefully implemented, be it a skill or an item you can buy or whatever) it is not the players "fault" to use it. That lies soley in the devs corner.
Fixing bugs, balancing the game and making sure that the "gameplay loop" is the intended one to follow.
If you'd gain everything by just staying at spawn, the devs "tell" the player that this is the correct way to play.
Same with quests. If that is the best way to gain everything, this is the way to do it. (never mind the fact that the player does not know how gamestage works, he just sees "oh I get level and loot nice")
I agree that there should be freedom to chose whatever you want and not everything HAS to be exactly as efficient as everything else.
But right now quests are so much stronger than anything else, the devs tell players "do this to get stronger and survive".

Again: "limit yourself" is not an argument.

It wasn't at building exploits, it wasn't with underground bases, and it isn't with driving away.

There are edgecases (were spikepits really exploits? You had to work REALLY hard to make them work... so input -> output), but something as clear as quests need to be fixed by the devs, not by the players.

 

[meganoth]

The fact that you seriously don't see the issue AND contradiction within your statement here is mind-boggling.

The contradiction is maybe solved if we remember that the game is supposed to be a challenge for new players, not veterans. We veterans are using the game in "unintented" ways just like people on 9+ player servers and builders playing a single world continually for hundreds of hours.

It surely isn't that TFP doesn't like veteran players to play the game, but all those players are in the second row.

First,  you say the game the game "offers a struggle to everyone", but then go on to say that your an experienced player and that YOU yourself limit yourself to certain guidelines.  More than once in this thread.

That alone is a problem.

Sure, the game itself offers a lot of different paths but it only promotes the player to take a few of them.

I agree in regards to the trader. His exploit-potential is so big that even novice players will often detect this almost immediately.

@meganoth You should tell this to Roland.  Because he runs arounds here like the gatekeeper himself whenever anyone says ANYTHING remotely negative about the game.

HE LIKES THE GAME. Just like you dislike almost anything about the game (or at least are only posting to critizise and want the game to be different).

Forget the moderator-sign, we just post like any normal user, argue like any normal user. Just that we both are generally pleased with the game and you are not. We also read much and have to read much and tend to post our views in any interesting argument. If your arguments are good they should stand up to the flak.

Note it is no coincidence that volunteer moderators are usually pleased with how a game turns out, because if they are not they tend to vanish and eventually play other games. I'm still here since A15 because I like how the game turned out, in most aspects.

There are edgecases (were spikepits really exploits? You had to work REALLY hard to make them work... so input -> output), but something as clear as quests need to be fixed by the devs, not by the players.

Was there some change directed against spike pits?

 

[RipClaw]

I'm all for a limit on daily quests and a daily cap on xp earned from the same activity. Make it so you can only do 1 quest a day per trader and xp from doing a particular activity diminishes throughout the day until it finally reaches zero and doesn't regen until the next day. That would slow people the hell down for sure....but also take freedom away. I'm happy to continue to self limit how many quests I do since it also allows someone else to spam quests all they want. In my game quests are not broken. They are perfect because I don't abuse them.

I don't think any limitation is necessary because the quests are self-limiting due to the amount of time involved. At the beginning of the game you spend a lot of time running to the quest location and back. That's why you can only do 2 or maximum 3 quests per day even if everything is in the immediate vicinity. By the way, I'm assuming 60-minute days here.

As the quest tier increases, so does the amount of time spent per POI. The only T5 quest I can complete in under an day is the Crack a Book headquarters. All other quests take longer if you also loot. And the quests are also further apart as there are fewer and fewer quest POIs nearby.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Was there some change directed against spike pits?

Y...yes?
They don't work anymore.
Spikes break super easily and permanent ones don't work anymore.
Add to that that zombies for some reason can't die anymore from falling (I don'T know the exact values, forgive me)...

Spikepits are a nuisance to upkeep and they don't work (like all spikes after day 14 hordes ) to kill Z's just slow them down.

The removal of logspikes as well as removal of lethal falldamage AND reducing spike damage (as well as them counting as blocks, which Z's now try to avoid) means that spikepits are not useful. They are a fun gimmick to try, but in the early days, they were the non-plus-ultra directly after exploitbases (which were used A LOT, because of the 'bad' A.I.) And yes these changes are deliberate, because
"they don't want players to ever be passive"

UGH I need to stop thinking abotu that or I get mad again.


The only reasonable critizism was that log spikes were too op.
Which could have easily been fixed by making it multiply falldamage and taking into consideration the rotation of the spikes.
 

if (rotation == up){
takeFallDamage(2x)
}


Just remove the damage on walk and everything is fine.
And you could have even had a special infected that does not get Falldamage (maybe by being part slime) who you have to kill or he destroys the spikes.

But no, they'd rather remove a feature in its entirety... I guess that is on brand though. "If its broken, don't fix it. Replace it with an entirely new broken mess!"

@Roland just in case the video was too long, here is the really relevant part
Video (again, but with a timestamp)

Don'T discourage quests. Incentivise other gameplay.
Maybe quest buildings have far more enemies or in general harder to do.
Maybe give more XP to building and mining and especially: give the "wilderness" some neat stuff as well, that you can't get when you are only in the city doing quests.
Like pois with extra big stashes. Or special NPCs (if they ever come) that you have to discover.
Radiant events are great as well...
I don't want them to discourage quests (maybe tweak the rewards) but I already hate that I can't accept more than one quest at a time, meaning I have to pointlessly backtrack after every mission.
Let us take all the quests at once, but decrease the reward and refill the quests only one every few days (meaning if you are too fast, you'll have to do something else until he has something again)

 

[meganoth]

Y...yes?
They don't work anymore.
Spikes break super easily and permanent ones don't work anymore.
Add to that that zombies for some reason can't die anymore from falling (I don'T know the exact values, forgive me)...

Spikepits are a nuisance to upkeep and they don't work (like all spikes after day 14 hordes ) to kill Z's just slow them down.

The removal of logspikes as well as removal of lethal falldamage AND reducing spike damage (as well as them counting as blocks, which Z's now try to avoid) means that spikepits are not useful. They are a fun gimmick to try, but in the early days, they were the non-plus-ultra directly after exploitbases (which were used A LOT, because of the 'bad' A.I.) And yes these changes are deliberate, because
"they don't want players to ever be passive"

UGH I need to stop thinking abotu that or I get mad again.


The only reasonable critizism was that log spikes were too op.
Which could have easily been fixed by making it multiply falldamage and taking into consideration the rotation of the spikes.
 

if (rotation == up){
takeFallDamage(2x)
}


Just remove the damage on walk and everything is fine.
And you could have even had a special infected that does not get Falldamage (maybe by being part slime) who you have to kill or he destroys the spikes.

But no, they'd rather remove a feature in its entirety... I guess that is on brand though. "If its broken, don't fix it. Replace it with an entirely new broken mess!"

You are going seriously overboard here. You don't know the details and just say "don't work". But the feature was nerfed exactly to not be OP, exactly the same thing you demand for the trader now.

Fall damage is still there, but instead of outright killing zombies (which would be OP) the damage is one third of zombies health. That is quite good for a passive measure that also can be used to collect zombies for grenade or molotov bombardement and seriously slows them down in coming at you.

The exit to spike pits can be plastered with further traps. I used 2 dart throwers for such a pit just now in A20 and even most radiated did not walk out of that pit alive even without picking them off from above (at insane you would need more, sure).

Meanwhile basic spikes were relegated to work for early and mid-game, while in endgame they get ineffective and you need to use electric traps. That is the same mechanism that makes wood blocks obsolete and you need to move to concrete or steel blocks for advanced hordes. Basic game design, you should know that.

Spikes counting as blocks means they need to be put into holes so their top is flat with the surrounding earth, then they work even better than before. Did you really never read this, I must have posted this information dozens of times and CraterCreator even had an icon for some time telling about that.

 

[Matt115]

I read this twice and its a bit of a word salad for me to understand, but I'll try my best to respond to what I think is the spirit of your concern: 

if you're saying that your experience hasn't made you better at this game, I'm going to call you out on that.  The foundation of human intuition (and incidentally, progression) is based in pattern recognition, even as newborns.

If the RNG is the same across the board, then everyone has the same opportunities/chances.  That's the nature of RNG.   It can make things tougher or easier, but to rail against that is like blaming the universe for your own misfortune.  Misfortune is one of the many intricacies that defines a survival experience.

The comparison of the current state of the game versus older version seems to be a pretty flat argument.  Those older versions were not as polished and likely had different goals in mind.  Similarly (if I read this right) comparison includes the state of other games in relation to this one.   Projecting your woes upon this game because it hasn't met the same standards you find agreeable in other games or older versions - that's not something that a developer should ever waste their time worrying about.

You also have the ability on your own to set certain bars that are linked to a more difficult experience.  Have you attempted to play with the settings to trim what sort of experience you're making for yourself?

1. I will give you L4D2 and city of brass as example.  First - l4d2 can be very hard or very easy depending on your luck. Even in versus - why? well Weapons, fire ammo, pill etc are in this same location but which special infected you get is so radomly enough that experience will not help you too much.  City of brass is another example - in some sitauation there is no chance to avoid take damage - so RWG mean more that experience because hm "good build" depends mostly on your luck. 

Well older games are what i mean:  older alpha are more hardcore and darker. So if you bought in "form making items" period 7dtd and played then you expected that 7dtd will be hardcore , dark survival because it's hard now ( i mean in this period). Now you have easy "light" game - and experience mean nothing  here - just change version into A10 for example - and you will big diffrences in difficulty.

And... hm change difficulty don't make that game will be harder but in good way - L4D2 again. On expert mode normal zombie hit you by 10 dmg but... number of them is much lower. So - yes it's harder but.... looks bad. Why? because it's broke climatic. NMRiH is not good because is hard but because setting, art style etc is good .

100% agree and I have no problem adding rules and boundaries to make this more of a game than a sandbox. 
 

But trust me that there will be many others screaming bloody murder the moment an aspect of their sandbox is switched to game mode. 
 

It’s more like I’m willing to use the sandbox nature of the game to self limit myself so that I can role play horror survival. That way I don’t step on anyone else’s toes by demanding a whole swath of the sandbox get formalized into a game with hard and fast rules. 
 

At the least, limiting myself is a solution for ongoing enjoyment until the devs add rules that limit the game for me. Either way it’s a win. Instead of hating the game because it’s boring since I had my concrete base since day five so there is no threat and no survival, I role play limits and don’t rush to concrete and it’s fun and I’m struggling to survive. 
 

The way I see it is you rush the progression because you are allowed to and as an experienced player you know how to and so you feel no challenge. From Day one you are far beyond the threats the game can deliver. I refuse to rush and just do some of everything as my mood or necessity dictates and so I am often behind or right with the threat level of the game and so I actually do experience a struggle to survive. We both want that struggle to survive. You just choose to move beyond it asap. 
 

I have to disagree. It is because you are an experienced player that you intuitively know your routes ahead of time. You aren’t the type to use exploits per se but still your experience and knwledge give you an edge over a new player. Most new players flounder about and have a tough time preparing for the very first blood moon while you probably already have at least some of your base built with concrete. Experience in the game is huge for being able to rocket beyond the threats that equal survival gameplay. 

Experience not help you too much if you don't have bad EQ - you there woudn't  be gamestage. And you can find in 1 day wight if you are unlucky. Experience won't help you too much ( if presume that there would exist " normal spawpoint" ( here can spawn a random type of zombie) and "specific spawnpoint"( let say - in scrapyard there will be always zombie dog))

I'm kinda butting in without reading everything, but anyway..

Survival. At the moment the best ratio for "time survived / effort spent" is probably found at "about 7h / didn't do anything". As in, start a game, crouch, go read a book. If you're a little lucky, the first thing that kills you is the 7th day horde of 3 zombies.

But, you died, so, it doesn't count?

Ok, make shovel, stone axe, get a wooden spear / bow, couple cobblestone, some small game.

Stand still on a suitable cobble pile.

Kill the night spawn dire wolves for food, fix your cobble pole after them.

I'd bet you can "survive" for ... well. Still Quite hypothetical, but forever. Hundreds of days?

I don't really like the idea of "skillfully doing nothing" being considered a good strategy either. The survival thingy should IMO imply a constant urgency to do something. Once you start playing, the game actually works, but "optimizing" your play for survival would makes the experience pretty horrible.

I know no-one is arguing you Should so this; but this is what the counterargument of "you don't have to play optimally" sounds like to me.. If I don't gain from progressing, then, why is there progress? Why are we here, just to suffer?

Well - progress can depend on ... biomes. let say - forest is the easiest biom, wastelands is hardest --> in forest you can find mostly normal zombies while in wasteland you can find mostly wight, spider zombie but the best quality items are there so : forest --> town ---> snow biom or desert --> city --> swamp ---> wastelands -->  waste city = progress

"Why are we here, just to suffer?" rprobably - don't expect nothing good

@Roland
I know youve seen this video already... but it honestly boils down to this again:

videogame philosophy.

If you want to limit yourself, feel free. I don't. If a game does not challenge me without me setting arbitrary rules for myself, it is not a survival game anymore.
And I am a huge fan of being challenged and survival games.

So I disagree harshly on your "I limit myself, and so can you"

It is the devs obligation to find ways to make everything fun.
If there is an "instant win button" (and no not a consolue, but something that was purposefully implemented, be it a skill or an item you can buy or whatever) it is not the players "fault" to use it. That lies soley in the devs corner.
Fixing bugs, balancing the game and making sure that the "gameplay loop" is the intended one to follow.
If you'd gain everything by just staying at spawn, the devs "tell" the player that this is the correct way to play.
Same with quests. If that is the best way to gain everything, this is the way to do it. (never mind the fact that the player does not know how gamestage works, he just sees "oh I get level and loot nice")
I agree that there should be freedom to chose whatever you want and not everything HAS to be exactly as efficient as everything else.
But right now quests are so much stronger than anything else, the devs tell players "do this to get stronger and survive".

Again: "limit yourself" is not an argument.

It wasn't at building exploits, it wasn't with underground bases, and it isn't with driving away.

There are edgecases (were spikepits really exploits? You had to work REALLY hard to make them work... so input -> output), but something as clear as quests need to be fixed by the devs, not by the players.

Yep ia agree - and honestly idk why they think that spikespits are exploits - in a lot of games spikepits is instant death traps

The contradiction is maybe solved if we remember that the game is supposed to be a challenge for new players, not veterans. We veterans are using the game in "unintented" ways just like people on 9+ player servers and builders playing a single world continually for hundreds of hours.

It surely isn't that TFP doesn't like veteran players to play the game, but all those players are in the second row.

I agree in regards to the trader. His exploit-potential is so big that even novice players will often detect this almost immediately.

HE LIKES THE GAME. Just like you dislike almost anything about the game (or at least are only posting to critizise and want the game to be different).

Forget the moderator-sign, we just post like any normal user, argue like any normal user. Just that we both are generally pleased with the game and you are not. We also read much and have to read much and tend to post our views in any interesting argument. If your arguments are good they should stand up to the flak.

Note it is no coincidence that volunteer moderators are usually pleased with how a game turns out, because if they are not they tend to vanish and eventually play other games. I'm still here since A15 because I like how the game turned out, in most aspects.

Was there some change directed against spike pits?

1. If i never played in older ( A11 probably) and i just bought 7DTD year ago i could agree. But i bought long time ago and older alpha were much harder that actual. If 7DTD was supposed to be easy game from begining - it woudn't complain. But they change from hardcore survival into easy game. And experience don't matter - spoiled food, meat smell,  corpse decying etc was much harder  right?   So that's  why are angry about. Because it change so radical. I think if now TFP decided to make 7dtd hard, depressing and mostly for hardcore  players  you would complain about that. So I and @Viktoriusiii are in similiar situation .

2. Well i have to agree about that you and  roland are normal. Honestly i like to you to argue with both of yours 

You are going seriously overboard here. You don't know the details and just say "don't work". But the feature was nerfed exactly to not be OP, exactly the same thing you demand for the trader now.

Fall damage is still there, but instead of outright killing zombies (which would be OP) the damage is one third of zombies health. That is quite good for a passive measure that also can be used to collect zombies for grenade or molotov bombardement and seriously slows them down in coming at you.

The exit to spike pits can be plastered with further traps. I used 2 dart throwers for such a pit just now in A20 and even most radiated did not walk out of that pit alive even without picking them off from above (at insane you would need more, sure).

Meanwhile basic spikes were relegated to work for early and mid-game, while in endgame they get ineffective and you need to use electric traps. That is the same mechanism that makes wood blocks obsolete and you need to move to concrete or steel blocks for advanced hordes. Basic game design, you should know that.

Spikes counting as blocks means they need to be put into holes so their top is flat with the surrounding earth, then they work even better than before. Did you really never read this, I must have posted this information dozens of times and CraterCreator even had an icon for some time telling about that.

Spikes traps... supposed to be OP... well that's point's of them - PoP, City of brass, tomb rider etc  but  it's not OP in this same time. Why?  if zombie fall into pit - instant death for zombie ( let say pit is 9X9X5) but for you too - you have to watch out if you are going somewhere and if you running to your base and night it's a big chance you will fall in your own trap - so car or bike is too dangerouse to keep in base.

Meanwhile basic spikes were relegated to work for early and mid-game, while in endgame they get ineffective and you need to use electric traps. That is the same mechanism that makes wood blocks obsolete and you need to move to concrete or steel blocks for advanced hordes. Basic game design, you should know that.

Not rly - you can make sea of spike using chainsaw --> 200 spikes is good enough usually . PS electrical traps... hm kinda useless - why? Zombie AI - they usually rush only one place so electricty  don't help you enough because have durability

 

[Viktoriusiii]

You are going seriously overboard here. You don't know the details and just say "don't work". But the feature was nerfed exactly to not be OP, exactly the same thing you demand for the trader now.

We disagree on the how much, that is for sure.
Spikepits are insanely hard to do (a lot of work, not complex), especially in earlygame.
So they are only for the midgame. But we don't have anything to do damage, because inthe midgame spikes are worthless. And traps degrade so fast that you can't even say "heyamama" before the first ones are broken.

Fall damage is still there, but instead of outright killing zombies (which would be OP) the damage is one third of zombies health. That is quite good for a passive measure that also can be used to collect zombies for grenade or molotov bombardement and seriously slows them down in coming at you.

I do think that 4/5ths is a good value for the amount of work needed to dig a 40 block deep 3 wide trench (120*50 = 6000 blocks). I agree that outright killing themis OP. No argument there... well...
Why not cap it at a certain HP value? Then weak ones die instantly, but the hard ones survive, except if they somehow got extra damaged.
Or do full damage but to the legs, meaning they nearly always break. Making them easier to deal with.

The exit to spike pits can be plastered with further traps. I used 2 dart throwers for such a pit just now in A20 and even most radiated did not walk out of that pit alive even without picking them off from above (at insane you would need more, sure).

Meanwhile basic spikes were relegated to work for early and mid-game, while in endgame they get ineffective and you need to use electric traps. That is the same mechanism that makes wood blocks obsolete and you need to move to concrete or steel blocks for advanced hordes. Basic game design, you should know that.

The problem is that we do not have anything that holds up for an entire hordenight.
MAYBE darttraps... haven't used them much, mostly bc they sucked so hard on implementation (my fault i know ) but I don't think a pit with loads of darttraps is very elegant... but maybe I'd need to tryit.

Spikes counting as blocks means they need to be put into holes so their top is flat with the surrounding earth, then they work even better than before. Did you really never read this, I must have posted this information dozens of times and CraterCreator even had an icon for some time telling about that.

I only realized like a year ago, when someone (maybe even oyu brought it up) because it is so god damn counterintuitive.
That means that they WILL maze-pathfind through broken spikes. I don't get why they don't just code spikeblocks (or any trap blocks really) like pressureplates or air blocks. makes 10x sense and leads to less stupid behaviour.

 

[Matt115]

We disagree on the how much, that is for sure.
Spikepits are insanely hard to do (a lot of work, not complex), especially in earlygame.
So they are only for the midgame. But we don't have anything to do damage, because inthe midgame spikes are worthless. And traps degrade so fast that you can't even say "heyamama" before the first ones are broken.

I do think that 4/5ths is a good value for the amount of work needed to dig a 40 block deep 3 wide trench (120*50 = 6000 blocks). I agree that outright killing themis OP. No argument there... well...
Why not cap it at a certain HP value? Then weak ones die instantly, but the hard ones survive, except if they somehow got extra damaged.
Or do full damage but to the legs, meaning they nearly always break. Making them easier to deal with.

The problem is that we do not have anything that holds up for an entire hordenight.
MAYBE darttraps... haven't used them much, mostly bc they sucked so hard on implementation (my fault i know ) but I don't think a pit with loads of darttraps is very elegant... but maybe I'd need to tryit.

I only realized like a year ago, when someone (maybe even oyu brought it up) because it is so god damn counterintuitive.
That means that they WILL maze-pathfind through broken spikes. I don't get why they don't just code spikeblocks (or any trap blocks really) like pressureplates or air blocks. makes 10x sense and leads to less stupid behaviour.

Yep, zombies are too smart. And honestly... if i can undestand turrets that dart traps are just terrible concept 

 

[meganoth]

We disagree on the how much, that is for sure.
Spikepits are insanely hard to do (a lot of work, not complex), especially in earlygame.

Correct. But on the other hand you don't need need to go deep in early game (forget fall damage) and just use spike traps that are effective against normal zombies. Though I must admit I usually don't use pits in early game. Partly because my early game horde base is not the final horde base anyway, but also because placing spike traps around the small POI I usually use work as well.

So they are only for the midgame. But we don't have anything to do damage, because inthe midgame spikes are worthless. And traps degrade so fast that you can't even say "heyamama" before the first ones are broken.

Yes, here we differ. Iron spike traps are very cheap and put down in masses work through a whole horde night. Also because zombies see the hole where a spike trap was as a longer way than the hole with a spike trap (because that way is still flat!!) zombies will NOT avoid traps when a path is cleared through a trap field.

I do think that 4/5ths is a good value for the amount of work needed to dig a 40 block deep 3 wide trench (120*50 = 6000 blocks). I agree that outright killing themis OP. No argument there... well...
Why not cap it at a certain HP value? Then weak ones die instantly, but the hard ones survive, except if they somehow got extra damaged.

Sure. That could have been a different solution. It does not make a huge difference, who cares whether weak zombies survive that fall?

By the way, a pit to bedrock is obviously the pit deluxe and rightly in endgame. Even a pit 5x5 and 10 blocks deep (250 blocks) can be very effective in combination with a sledge turret throwing them down there form a small access way. And naturally any size inbetween.

Or do full damage but to the legs, meaning they nearly always break. Making them easier to deal with.

The problem is that we do not have anything that holds up for an entire hordenight.
MAYBE darttraps... haven't used them much, mostly bc they sucked so hard on implementation (my fault i know ) but I don't think a pit with loads of darttraps is very elegant... but maybe I'd need to tryit.

There are lots of ways to make pits. You can make them into death traps with turrets, dart traps and electric traps and as I said before they are great for throwing explosives down there or putting a sniper there in MP.

You can put spike traps in there as well but spike traps need space which you seldom have in a pit. Plastering a whole field with spike traps for example is a good way to soften and slow down a horde, it doesn't need much work and is as effective as the work put in.

I only realized like a year ago, when someone (maybe even oyu brought it up) because it is so god damn counterintuitive.

Yes, very hard to find out, most players will never know about it. I have criticised that as well. My prefered solution would be changing the graphics into something that looks more like a block with smaller spikes on it, similar to the one a mod had.

That means that they WILL maze-pathfind through broken spikes. I don't get why they don't just code spikeblocks (or any trap blocks really) like pressureplates or air blocks. makes 10x sense and leads to less stupid behaviour.

Not sure what you mean by broken spikes (there are either spikes that do damage or the spike is gone), but as I said above, when a spike in a hole is gone it is a longer path for the zombie than the spike beside it that is flat ground and so he will maze-pathfind through spikes and avoid the empty holes.

 

[meganoth]

Yep ia agree - and honestly idk why they think that spikespits are exploits - in a lot of games spikepits is instant death traps

Show me any post where spikepits are termed exploits by TFP or me or Roland (I assume you mean that with the "they"?).

Spikes traps... supposed to be OP... well that's point's of them

No. Bring an argument instead of saying "they are supposed to be" or at least say exactly WHO decided that they have to be and why should we listen to him.

- PoP, City of brass, tomb rider etc  but  it's not OP in this same time.

Tomb raider for example is an absolutely pointless comparison: You don't build the trap in TR, it is a trap specifically for you to fall in, a danger made by the game, not one you made to let zombies fall in. And if you fall in you just reload. PLEASE PLEASE at least in conversations with me, could you please avoid that silly name dropping of other games.

Why?  if zombie fall into pit - instant death for zombie ( let say pit is 9X9X5) but for you too - you have to watch out if you are going somewhere and if you running to your base and night it's a big chance you will fall in your own trap - so car or bike is too dangerouse to keep in base.

So TFP could make simply wood traps insta-kill traps for any zombie including demolisher because a few clumsy players could be killed by that trap as well? (And yes, I was killed by stepping into wood traps quite a few times).

Meanwhile all the more careful players AND the clumsy players will be bored to death! That makes no sense.

Not rly - you can make sea of spike using chainsaw --> 200 spikes is good enough usually . PS electrical traps... hm kinda useless - why? Zombie AI - they usually rush only one place so electricty  don't help you enough because have durability

And they can be repaired if you can reach it. And it is part of the design of a horde base if all zombies rush through a specific place or only some. Redundancy is another option. And lastly, while the electric fence is working it keeps your ammo usage low so you still have enough ammo for spray-and-pray when it is gone.

 

[Matt115]

Show me any post where spikepits are termed exploits by someone (from TFP or someone defending the change).

No. Bring an argument instead of saying "they are supposed to be" or at least say exactly WHO decided that they have to be and why should we listen to him.

Tomb rider for example is an absolutely pointless comparison: You don't build the trap in TR, it is a trap specifically for you to fall in, a danger made by the game, not one you made to let zombies fall in. And if you fall in you just reload. PLEASE PLEASE at least in conversations with me, could you please avoid that silly name dropping of other games.

So TFP could make simply wood traps insta-kill traps for any zombie including demolisher because a few clumsy players could be killed by that trap as well? (And yes, I was killed by stepping into wood traps quite a few times).

Meanwhile all the more careful players AND the clumsy players will be bored to death! That makes no sense.

And they can be repaired if you can reach it. And it is part of the design of a horde base if all zombies rush through a specific place or only some. Redundancy is another option. And lastly, while the electric fence is working it keeps your ammo usage low so you still have enough ammo for spray-and-pray when it is gone.

1. Well i know there was some types of exploits by using traps so i undestood by :

There are edgecases (were spikepits really exploits? You had to work REALLY hard to make them work... so input -> output), but something as clear as quests need to be fixed by the devs, not by the players.

That spikepits were exploits like killng corridor. So this can be mistake

2 and 3 .  I would say "standard created long ago" but without " dropping of other games" i will use argument - logical thinking . Okay - weapons in 7dtd are rly underpowered. You have to stab with spear so many times,  shotguns are so... unsatiscating usually. I undestand why - "perks" probably to slow down progress but.. this create so stupid situation that you shot shotgun in zombie head and is often still alive - in older before perks it would be 1 shot kill except wight. But ok now about just traps, well - in 7dtd zombies are (except spider) reanimated corpses - fall from 5 m on spikes should be instant death why? high + well accleration combine with penetration. This one of the oldest traps in history and it was usefull because it was soo cheap and effective. Okay TFP done in that why because  zombie limit  so zombie have to have a lot of hp because if zombie were pretty weak ( i mean hp not dmg) could be too easy - i get that but i hope increase zombies number into 128 will be consider for 7DTD2 .

4. Perfect example how to use demolisher : demolisher fall into hole -- boom --> hole is safe for zombie  so this could be easy " neutralisation " of spikespits . Ok but what about "bigger spikepits" - well it think  spike dmg can be combined with fall dmg so --> let for example   1 m = 10 hp so dmg of  spike would be (fall dmg) x 3 piercing dmg.  So if  you have something like  ;    Lxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( x spike, L earth) then after fall of demolisher it could be L.....xxx (...  dirt in pit)  so zombie could get 0x3 piercing dmg --> so without fall spiketrap is totaly useless. 

5. No they will not... or will be - well TFP decided to choose crawling zombie instead Behemot - if there would a lot of types of zombie: armored zombie, sapper suit zombie rock thrower zombie etc there would be a lot to do - so even if you are " a little bit" safe against onb begining of blood moon normal zombie still you have too deal with special ones

6. You forget about one but vital problem --> iron is not endless so if you mine every close iron you have to go farer and farer to mine iron but this need time right? but tree you can  plant near you base ( i know you can scavenge cars etc but you have too go for them farer and farer too).

 

[meganoth]

1. Well i know there was some types of exploits by using traps so i undestood by :

That spikepits were exploits like killng corridor. So this can be mistake

2 and 3 .  I would say "standard created long ago" but without " dropping of other games" i will use argument - logical thinking . Okay - weapons in 7dtd are rly underpowered. You have to stab with spear so many times,  shotguns are so... unsatiscating usually. I undestand why - "perks" probably to slow down progress but.. this create so stupid situation that you shot shotgun in zombie head and is often still alive - in older before perks it would be 1 shot kill except wight. But ok now about just traps, well - in 7dtd zombies are (except spider) reanimated corpses - fall from 5 m on spikes should be instant death why? high + well accleration combine with penetration. This one of the oldest traps in history and it was usefull because it was soo cheap and effective. Okay TFP done in that why because  zombie limit  so zombie have to have a lot of hp because if zombie were pretty weak ( i mean hp not dmg) could be too easy - i get that but i hope increase zombies number into 128 will be consider for 7DTD2 .

You argue with realism. Sorry, then we have to remove almost all building abilities from the player. It is unrealistic and in reality someone who could build pits to "bedrock" that easy would have no problem with zombies at all. Especially because zombies also don't exist. And so on.

Other games decide for limiting the player severely. Did it ever occur to you that you should be able to dig a hole anywhere in other zombie games because of realism? Most don't allow it (AFAIK) but strangely that doesn't seem to disturb your sense of reality.

Thats the problem with arguing with reality. In games there are so many limits and differences to reality that you can argue for almost anything "because of reality". And especially easy whenever fantasy-creatures like zombies are in a game. How many people have argued with properties zombies should have, when any layman could prove that that property of a zombie is impossible in the real world.

Yes, zombies are sturdier in 7D2D because there can only be a limited number at the same time. This means they need more than one bullet and also more than one fall to a spike trap to be killed, anything else would make the game a non-game. And there is no use discussing a what-if where that hardware-induced limit does not exist.

4. Perfect example how to use demolisher : demolisher fall into hole -- boom --> hole is safe for zombie  so this could be easy " neutralisation " of spikespits . Ok but what about "bigger spikepits" - well it think  spike dmg can be combined with fall dmg so --> let for example   1 m = 10 hp so dmg of  spike would be (fall dmg) x 3 piercing dmg.  So if  you have something like  ;    Lxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( x spike, L earth) then after fall of demolisher it could be L.....xxx (...  dirt in pit)  so zombie could get 0x3 piercing dmg --> so without fall spiketrap is totaly useless. 

5. No they will not... or will be - well TFP decided to choose crawling zombie instead Behemot - if there would a lot of types of zombie: armored zombie, sapper suit zombie rock thrower zombie etc there would be a lot to do - so even if you are " a little bit" safe against onb begining of blood moon normal zombie still you have too deal with special ones

Absolute disaster. So that in this situation the player with a OP pit has some danger a player without pit would be overwhelmed because he would have to deal with all zombies that the OP pit would have killed as well. Making a pit a mandatory ingredient in any horde base.

And what about the early and mid-game where normal zombies dominate the mix? 

There is no substitute for balance when you want to give the player multiple ways to solve a situation.

6. You forget about one but vital problem --> iron is not endless so if you mine every close iron you have to go farer and farer to mine iron but this need time right? but tree you can  plant near you base ( i know you can scavenge cars etc but you have too go for them farer and farer too).

I was not arguing against wood traps, but they need even more space and time to replace than iron traps. At the moment with the difficulty in selecting and repairing spike traps they are not worth the trouble, if the bugs get ironed they might be useful again.

But iron is practically endless for any realistically played game. Have you ever mined all the iron in even just 500m circumference of your base? I bet not.

 

[Matt115]

You argue with realism. Sorry, then we have to remove almost all building abilities from the player. It is unrealistic and in reality someone who could build pits to "bedrock" that easy would have no problem with zombies at all. Especially because zombies also don't exist. And so on.

Other games decide for limiting the player severely. Did it ever occur to you that you should be able to dig a hole anywhere in other zombie games because of realism? Most don't allow it (AFAIK) but strangely that doesn't seem to disturb your sense of reality.

Thats the problem with arguing with reality. In games there are so many limits and differences to reality that you can argue for almost anything "because of reality". And especially easy whenever fantasy-creatures like zombies are in a game. How many people have argued with properties zombies should have, when any layman could prove that that property of a zombie is impossible in the real world.

Yes, zombies are sturdier in 7D2D because there can only be a limited number at the same time. This means they need more than one bullet and also more than one fall to a spike trap to be killed, anything else would make the game a non-game. And there is no use discussing a what-if where that hardware-induced limit does not exist.

Absolute disaster. So that in this situation the player with a OP pit has some danger a player without pit would be overwhelmed because he would have to deal with all zombies that the OP pit would have killed as well. Making a pit a mandatory ingredient in any horde base.

And what about the early and mid-game where normal zombies dominate the mix? 

There is no substitute for balance when you want to give the player multiple ways to solve a situation.

I was not arguing against wood traps, but they need even more space and time to replace than iron traps. At the moment with the difficulty in selecting and repairing spike traps they are not worth the trouble, if the bugs get ironed they might be useful again.

But iron is practically endless for any realistically played game. Have you ever mined all the iron in even just 500m circumference of your base? I bet not.

1. You don't want to example for diffrent games so this is only option. Btw fun fact... zombie exist but only zombie ants : The Zombie Fungus Takes Over Ants’ Bodies to Control Their Minds - The Atlantic . Well they are not typical "bitter" but still well interesting . 

Well: but there is universal tropes - shotgun is op on long range, fire do a lot of damage against flesh,  moving traps ( like pole with spikes) are not insta death while  spikes in floor yes and red barrels exploding. 

Well MS Survival , orc must die are good example that allowe you be AFK ( except set a trap)

Yep, but nobody says that topic must  consider only actual 7dtd. So studier zombies can be "topic" for future right?

What about early and mid? this same things -   more holes because you have better tools right? And honestly about early game - it think "early" weak variants of zombie would be pretty good. 

250 m yep but 500 nope. It was A16 or A 17. Well as i said upsters --> just add more spikes. that's is good enough i mean 300 - 400 spikes

Btw. Now... i know it's too late to change 7dtd so i'm writing more in spinoff/sequel context. Why?  Because.... what more left to do?

 

[Roland]

The fact that you seriously don't see the issue AND contradiction within your statement here is mind-boggling.

First,  you say the game the game "offers a struggle to everyone", but then go on to say that your an experienced player and that YOU yourself limit yourself to certain guidelines.  More than once in this thread.

What's funny here is that you bolded my entire statement but then parsed only the first half and then claimed I made a contradiction. So here is my full statement:

"7 Days to Die does offer a struggle to everyone who hasn't optimized it out of their game by rushing"

The qualifier in my statement is that the struggle is present for those that don't erase it by choice. I never stated that the game offers a struggle to everyone period. That was simply you creating a strategic cutoff in the middle of my sentence. I'm pretty sure what you did is obvious to anyone following the conversation...

My further statements about limiting myself by choice are perfectly in line with this full statement.

That alone is a problem.

Sure, the game itself offers a lot of different paths but it only promotes the player to take a few of them.

I agree it is a problem for survival game play and as I've said a set of rules to enforce survival gameplay would not bother me. Until those rules are in place officially I will continue to self-limit so that I can have a survival game experience. It works. I'm having fun and playing. I guess just doing the same things that bring misery over and over and coming here to complain about it is another choice but not one I subscribe to. I like to do what works.

@meganoth You should tell this to Roland.  Because he runs arounds here like the gatekeeper himself whenever anyone says ANYTHING remotely negative about the game.

I just offer a different perspective. I'm not gatekeeping your gameplay. By all means keep playing the game in a manner that destroys your fun factor. It's your choice. I've already said I'm all for a change personally. But I also think it needs to be known for full disclosure that changes to the game that add specific rules, by their nature, reduce the sandboxiness of the game. The proof in that pudding is the recent announcement about crafting magazines. How you learn to craft will be defined by a new set of rules in A21 which will change how players can play the game and force looting to a higher degree than now. Those who feel that the rule crimps their sandbox freedom are worried and upset about the change. 

 

[meganoth]

1. You don't want to example for diffrent games so this is only option. Btw fun fact... zombie exist but only zombie ants : The Zombie Fungus Takes Over Ants’ Bodies to Control Their Minds - The Atlantic . Well they are not typical "bitter" but still well interesting . 

Well: but there is universal tropes - shotgun is op on long range, fire do a lot of damage against flesh,  moving traps ( like pole with spikes) are not insta death while  spikes in floor yes and red barrels exploding. 

Well MS Survival , orc must die are good example that allowe you be AFK ( except set a trap)

Yep, but nobody says that topic must  consider only actual 7dtd. So studier zombies can be "topic" for future right?

You'll have to find someone else to talk about 7d2d 2. I have no interest in talking about it.

What about early and mid? this same things -   more holes because you have better tools right? And honestly about early game - it think "early" weak variants of zombie would be pretty good. 

Learn to quote. I don't know what you are talking about here

250 m yep but 500 nope. It was A16 or A 17. Well as i said upsters --> just add more spikes. that's is good enough i mean 300 - 400 spikes

Nothing wrong with hundreds of wood spikes.

Btw. Now... i know it's too late to change 7dtd so i'm writing more in spinoff/sequel context. Why?  Because.... what more left to do?

See anyone else do that? I don't.

 

[Matt115]

Learn to quote. I don't know what you are talking about here

About this one 

And what about the early and mid-game where normal zombies dominate the mix? 

You'll have to find someone else to talk about 7d2d 2. I have no interest in talking about it.

See anyone else do it? I don't.

Because you like how things looks right now.

Well... because honestly i don't know why. Maybe they  still  hope that TFP will change their mind about LBD or will decide to make 7dtd harder. I just know it's too late so only option is to talk about future. Because do you see realistic option to increase zombie number or add 10 more zombie variants?

I don't. And i lose hope for DLC. Because they don't confirmed them for so long time