PC It's all gone wrong, terribly wrong.

[meganoth]

About this one 

Ah okay. My point was that in early game when only weak zombies run around OP (== overpowered) traps would make the game boring even if the game had armored zombies or behemoths, because those advanced zombies would not be seen in the early or even mid-game.

So your answer "And honestly about early game - it think "early" weak variants of zombie would be pretty good." does not make sense to me. They would be even easier canon fodder for the overpowered pits. They would not be a solution that would make the game dangerous again.

Because you like how things looks right now.

No, even easier. Because we don't know anything about 7D2D 2 to talk about it.

And I would suggest to forget about your pipe dream of influencing the developers about the next game just because you are mass posting your own idea. The only thing you will accomplish will be to land on ignore lists.

Well... because honestly i don't know why. Maybe they  still  hope that TFP will change their mind about LBD or will decide to make 7dtd harder. I just know it's too late so only option is to talk about future. Because do you see realistic option to increase zombie number or add 10 more zombie variants?

I don't. And i lose hope for DLC. Because they don't confirmed them for so long time

I do see a realistic chance to convince TFP to add an option for A21 or change the loot abundance option to include the traders quest rewards or anything else to better increase difficulty.

But the important thing is, what they can accomplish is to make TFP aware of a problem and think about solutions. What they can't accomplish is to make TFP just take the solution they suggest.

A recently successful example of a convince: Operators of open servers convinced them that they need to do something about their network performance and security. So they hired a network guy to overhaul the code.

 

[Stranded_Napkin]

"Smart" & "Gimmick" zombies -
You are losing the arms race and have been since you decided to enter it. Please give up. Players will always outsmart your AI. No that's not a challenge. It's the reason we're the dominate species on Earth. We use tools well. We outsmart things. We outlast them. Please stop trying to make zombies smarter than us. Their danger is in their unrelenting tides and sheer numbers. Not through dynamite strapped on their chest, slapping a wood wall twice and breaking it, or pathing cleverly to you.

Gore blocks were an infinitely better zombie threat than anything you've put in the game thus far and you removed them without trying to iterate on it at all. Get rid of the stupid demo zombies. Bring back gore blocks. Stop trying to make "counters" to player strategy and get back to making zombies like the irradiated or the army zombie whose head is protected, etc.

100% agree on the Demolishers. The game became less about zombies and more about weird science experiments run amuck. Hmm, sounds like another game...cough...coughkillingfloorcough...cough. Anyways, the demo's are in my opinion a bad addition to the game. All they had to do was add two zombies, one that went boom doing massive block damage but with a low health bar so you at least had a chance of stopping him and another zombie that was slow and lumbering with massive armor and massive health but low damage output so that their method of defeating your defenses was to tank up and absorb your ammunition while all the zombies attempted to beat their way in. That is a much better way of balancing it. Of course, I'm of the opinion that the Fun Pimps are a bit lazy and just went with a single zombie that does both roles at once.

The reason why the gore blocks were removed was due to performance issues. You killed zombies and their corpses turned into little death traps, something that made combat interesting though kinda irrelevant if you were inside a base. The issue was they were yet more items that your cpu had to keep track of. With how the game already was and where it was going I think it's ok that they removed them.

 

[Sal]

The contradiction is maybe solved if we remember that the game is supposed to be a challenge for new players, not veterans. We veterans are using the game in "unintented" ways just like people on 9+ player servers and builders playing a single world continually for hundreds of hours.

It surely isn't that TFP doesn't like veteran players to play the game, but all those players are in the second row.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but don't you see the problem here?  They're making the game easier for newer players while also (seemingly) forgetting about us players who have been playing the game years instead of trying to find a balance between both. I mean, who hell cares if the sticks, stones, and feathers are now highlighted in the tutorial. We've been playing the game for years without it.....we know how to find them. 

My point is, it seems most of the criticism is coming from vets who have spent hours of time on the game since damn near it's inception (~10 years ago) and it feels like we're the ones being left out.  And let's not sugarcoat it for what it is. It's money. Future money. That's it and that's all.

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but if a million people supported my project for an entire decade then I would do something to show a bit of gratitude after 9 years instead of only trying to cater to newcomers just to make a buck.

 

[Matt115]

Ah okay. My point was that in early game when only weak zombies run around OP (== overpowered) traps would make the game boring even if the game had armored zombies or behemoths, because those advanced zombies would not be seen in the early or even mid-game.

So your answer "And honestly about early game - it think "early" weak variants of zombie would be pretty good." does not make sense to me. They would be even easier canon fodder for the overpowered pits. They would not be a solution that would make the game dangerous again.

1. I forget to mention sorry.  wood spikes would be 1 use only - if one zombie fall into this spike- spike is broken so if you are lucky enough - 3X3 pit hole mean max 9 zombie will be killed.  So yes it would be but only on begining of the blood moon +  in normal day. And how much wood would be need for 1 spike? Idk maybe 20?

2. Okay so let's call this variant Rotten. You can one hit kill while using primitive bow with stone arrow if you have 2 points in archery. so... Your job would be kill them before they fall to pit because it would be  waste of resources. So after time normal zombie will be cannon folderso you will trying to kill them to "let" more powerfull zombie fall into the pit

No, even easier. Because we don't know anything about 7D2D 2 to talk about it.

And I would suggest to forget about your pipe dream of influencing the developers about the next game just because you are mass posting your own idea. The only thing you will accomplish will be to land on ignore lists.

Fine. Well i think we will have to wait +- 10 years for that

I do see a realistic chance to convince TFP to add an option for A21 or change the loot abundance option to include the traders quest rewards or anything else to better increase difficulty.

But the important thing is, what they can accomplish is to make TFP aware of a problem and think about solutions. What they can't accomplish is to make TFP just take the solution they suggest.

A recently successful example of a convince: Operators of open servers convinced them that they need to do something about their network performance and security. So they hired a network guy to overhaul the code.

"A recently successful example of a convince: Operators of open servers convinced them that they need to do something about their network performance and security. So they hired a network guy to overhaul the code."

This is fixing bugs not add content. Well even older games get fixing bugs. And rebalance is... hm fixing bugs too. But add more zombie types, T6 etc. Well rebalance can change game a lot that's true but this is complicated... Cod would be good example. Some zombie maps are hard because zombie types advance design etc while Vanguard zombie mode was hard because weapons were soo much underpowered - so while fighting with Krasny soldat was fun in gorod krovi that put few magasines into single normal zombie in vanguard was boring. So i hope bandits will be good enemies because they will have good stuff and accuracy not because they will take 2 AK magasines into chest without dying. Well for me 7dtd is almost finished - just add water overhoul, bandits and that's all what is neccesary - I know about LBL  but... if redesing eveything over and over ( armors for example) production will be eternal xd. Well rest things like -new zombies , vehicles etc. probably would be added as DLC = more cash for them and people will end complaing about eternal Alpha .

 

[Rotor]

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but don't you see the problem here?  They're making the game easier for newer players while also (seemingly) forgetting about us players who have been playing the game years instead of trying to find a balance between both. I mean, who hell cares if the sticks, stones, and feathers are now highlighted in the tutorial. We've been playing the game for years without it.....we know how to find them. 

My point is, it seems most of the criticism is coming from vets who have spent hours of time on the game since damn near it's inception (~10 years ago) and it feels like we're the ones being left out.  And let's not sugarcoat it for what it is. It's money. Future money. That's it and that's all.

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but if a million people supported my project for an entire decade then I would do something to show a bit of gratitude after 9 years instead of only trying to cater to newcomers just to make a buck.

No saying you are wrong or right, just wanted to point out this a very naive view in today's world. 

 

[meganoth]

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but don't you see the problem here?  They're making the game easier for newer players while also (seemingly) forgetting about us players who have been playing the game years instead of trying to find a balance between both. I mean, who hell cares if the sticks, stones, and feathers are now highlighted in the tutorial. We've been playing the game for years without it.....we know how to find them. 

Why do you care about what the tutorial highlights at all? If this is "forgetting about veterans" then those veterans deserve that measure for being selfish elitists. A tutorial should be so simple to follow that the worst imaginable player can follow it, and I can imagine players who would need that clue bat. For veterans it is an inconsequential thing that is done in 30 seconds so you can get the 4 perk points or ignore it completely for ... some more initial difficulty.

The highlighting of vehicles and turrets is maybe a simplification but without that the difficulty is "fake" difficulty. The difficulty to find your bike among 4 identical ones in co-op multiplayer is such a difficulty I don't care much about. The difficulty finding your turret after you left it somewhere is somewhat "fake" as well.

The marking of quest buildings, yes, I wish they would make a system where you really would need to find the building. I hope you really thought about that example when you mentioned highlighting.

My point is, it seems most of the criticism is coming from vets who have spent hours of time on the game since damn near it's inception (~10 years ago) and it feels like we're the ones being left out.  And let's not sugarcoat it for what it is. It's money. Future money. That's it and that's all.

Have you forgotten that you got HOURS of playtime out of it with a fresh game with new gimmicks and features (but also new bugs) every year, just like a service game but without paying anything at all? Sure, some players also pay back with bug reports or server operation or recommending the game. But players of a service game do that as well and still have to pay for it.

And you hint at their moneygrabbingness (which surely exists, otherwise why work at all?) while you just payed a small sum once for years and years of playing this game. Hows that for money-pinching, have you bought a 7D2D cup each year?

I'm not suggesting to buy a cup now, seriously, but the deal we got is a good one even if the game eventually gets stale on us. TFP didn't promise perpetual happiness for 20$ and that we got a few YEARS out of one game is seldom and unplanable.

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but if a million people supported my project for an entire decade then I would do something to show a bit of gratitude after 9 years instead of only trying to cater to newcomers just to make a buck.

How about showing some gratitude for 9 years of a game held fresh by updates. Make no mistake, if they just had made a beta after the alpha you consider best and released that then the chance that you would still play this game at all would be pretty low. People usually don't want to play the same stuff in an endless loop, they change from novice to veteran to former player.

Me personally I think the deal between TFP and you is pretty even, but only if you convinced 10 of your friends to join the game.

 

[Uncle Al]

shotguns are so... unsatiscating usually. I undestand why - "perks" probably to slow down progress but.. this create so stupid situation that you shot shotgun in zombie head and is often still alive - in older before perks it would be 1 shot kill except wight.

That's less about perks and more about mods.  Unless you have a choke AND a retracting stock or laser sight on your shotgun I find aiming at the high chest, so the zombie's head is inside your scatter zone but there's fairly little empty space where pellets can miss completely, works best.  With no mods at all, just aim centre mass.

Going for a full headshot, where you aim at the centre of the head, only works reliably once you've tighted the shotgun spread significantly.  Human perception is quite bad at recognising just how big, relatively, several small shapes are compared to one big shape.  That means you tend to think 'almost all my pellets are going to hit' when actually 50% or more just miss if you try and headshot when you haven't tightened the spread enough.  The total areas of the 'miss zones' are actually as big or bigger than the zombie's head itself.

Perks do help, but actually run and gun probably beats out boomstick until you can reliably headshot, because it tightens up your spread which boomstick does not do.

Oh there's also confirmation bias of course.  If you try and headshot ten zombies in a row, even with very good spread minimisation, you're going to get one time the zombie does a Pulp Fiction on you and all the pellets hit empty air.  That shot sticks in your memory a lot more vividly than the other nine times where you blow a head off.

 

[meganoth]

1. I forget to mention sorry.  wood spikes would be 1 use only - if one zombie fall into this spike- spike is broken so if you are lucky enough - 3X3 pit hole mean max 9 zombie will be killed.  So yes it would be but only on begining of the blood moon +  in normal day. And how much wood would be need for 1 spike? Idk maybe 20?

2. Okay so let's call this variant Rotten. You can one hit kill while using primitive bow with stone arrow if you have 2 points in archery. so... Your job would be kill them before they fall to pit because it would be  waste of resources. So after time normal zombie will be cannon folderso you will trying to kill them to "let" more powerfull zombie fall into the pit

Fine. Well i think we will have to wait +- 10 years for that

"A recently successful example of a convince: Operators of open servers convinced them that they need to do something about their network performance and security. So they hired a network guy to overhaul the code."

This is fixing bugs not add content.

Wrong. If TFP wants to fix performance and security this needs an overhaul of the network code. In laymans terms, an unencrypted connection and a buffer overflow are both examples of security problems, but only the second example is a bug. 

It is an example of TFP (probably) listening to players but also an example of them analyzing and then going for a solution they select.

And I would say from experience that seems quite typical. The exponential increase and trivial gameplay in farming was criticised by players for some time as well and either they recognised it themselves already or listened to the players, but they did not follow the suggestions of the players. They invent their own solution. And there are more examples like this.

Well even older games get fixing bugs. And rebalance is... hm fixing bugs too. But add more zombie types, T6 etc.

You were asking if THEY have a chance. You were not asking if YOU have a chance.

You want 7d2d to be a completely different game made by developers who probably should have a different taste in games. And the probability of that has more zeros than you getting hit by lightning on the day you win the lottery.

Well rebalance can change game a lot that's true but this is complicated... Cod would be good example.

This is the point where I stop reading

Some zombie maps are hard because zombie types advance design etc while Vanguard zombie mode was hard because weapons were soo much underpowered - so while fighting with Krasny soldat was fun in gorod krovi that put few magasines into single normal zombie in vanguard was boring. So i hope bandits will be good enemies because they will have good stuff and accuracy not because they will take 2 AK magasines into chest without dying. Well for me 7dtd is almost finished - just add water overhoul, bandits and that's all what is neccesary - I know about LBL  but... if redesing eveything over and over ( armors for example) production will be eternal xd. Well rest things like -new zombies , vehicles etc. probably would be added as DLC = more cash for them and people will end complaing about eternal Alpha .

 

[BFT2020]

shotguns are so... unsatiscating usually. I undestand why - "perks" probably to slow down progress but.. this create so stupid situation that you shot shotgun in zombie head and is often still alive - in older before perks it would be 1 shot kill except wight.

If you are trying to potentially take out a zombie with one shot to the head, you want to use slugs instead of buckshot shells.  Buckshot is great for spreading the damage around, especially if you got the zombies bunched up and taking a lot of AOE damage from traps and such.  Slugs are for when you want to drop them quickly.  A Q6 pump action shotgun with max loaded mods will take down most zombies with one shot to the head (regular and ferals - radiated and ferals of the big boys are a bit tougher - also assuming difficulty is based on 1:1 damage which is what they balance the game to)).

Also @Uncle Alhad good points about properly aiming with the shotgun.

 

[meganoth]

If you are trying to potentially take out a zombie with one shot to the head, you want to use slugs instead of buckshot shells.  Buckshot is great for spreading the damage around, especially if you got the zombies bunched up and taking a lot of AOE damage from traps and such.  Slugs are for when you want to drop them quickly.  A Q6 pump action shotgun with max loaded mods will take down most zombies with one shot to the head (regular and ferals - radiated and ferals of the big boys are a bit tougher - also assuming difficulty is based on 1:1 damage which is what they balance the game to)).

Also @Uncle Alhad good points about properly aiming with the shotgun.

A friend of mine is a big fan of shotguns for survivability. He doesn't care about the damage, he cares that the zombies are stopped for a short time while he can run away. And my friend often has the fewest deaths of our group so there might be some truth in that.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Before discussion moves along too far, I just want to suggest that perhaps rushing to optimize your gameplay can also be the path to enjoying this game. This rush to survive is what makes the first days of the game so amazing. I don't think it should be frowned upon. As a new player, and from the game's title, you know right from the start that you are fighting against the clock. As a new player, you feel that sense of accomplishment when you have managed your time successfully and have survived the first blood moon. You have enjoyed it so much, that you are willing to repeat this multiple times and improve upon it each time in preparation for the next one.
 
This urgency due to some impending doom is uncommon in survival games and has contributed greatly towards 7 Days to Die being one of the best survival games of all time. Let's not be too hasty to remove this quality from the game. My point is the game would do better to focus on maintaining the challenge and struggle even if a player attempts to optimize their gameplay as opposed to trying to persuade players that they shouldn't do it at all. 

For a game with so many systems that incorporate randonmess, it is surprising that the randonmess isn't enough on its own to throw a wrench in the works for players who attempt to optimize. It used to be enough. To be a broken record, I think putting so much importance on the traders has in a sense thrown all your eggs into one basket and has nullified everything that the randomness in all those systems were trying to accomplish. 

 

[Matt115]

Wrong. If TFP wants to fix performance and security this needs an overhaul of the network code. In laymans terms, an unencrypted connection and a buffer overflow are both examples of security problems, but only the second example is a bug. 

Secruity etc. is technical part right?

You were asking if THEY have a chance. You were not asking if YOU have a chance.

You want 7d2d to be a completely different game made by developers who probably should have a different taste in games. And the probability of that has more zeros than you getting hit by lightning on the day you win the lottery.

Well i saw few at least people asking for more T5 or even T6 POI, more zombie types so. This woudn't be completely diffrent game right?

If you are trying to potentially take out a zombie with one shot to the head, you want to use slugs instead of buckshot shells.  Buckshot is great for spreading the damage around, especially if you got the zombies bunched up and taking a lot of AOE damage from traps and such.  Slugs are for when you want to drop them quickly.  A Q6 pump action shotgun with max loaded mods will take down most zombies with one shot to the head (regular and ferals - radiated and ferals of the big boys are a bit tougher - also assuming difficulty is based on 1:1 damage which is what they balance the game to)).

Also @Uncle Alhad good points about properly aiming with the shotgun.

I forget about that - still is underpowered. Slugs should be something like him - longer range that bucket and bigger hole but buckshot shells in one hit kill from long range. Well , that's problem - Q6 pump action with mods. I'm too much tired to write why

 

[Matt115]

You want 7d2d to be a completely different game made by developers who probably should have a different taste in games. And the probability of that has more zeros than you getting hit by lightning on the day you win the lottery.

You remind me something - no i don't. If setting, diffuculty was similiar now with  A11, i woudn't complain. But A11 and now looks like two diffrent game and i don't mean graphic upgrade but art style

So yeah 7dtd is just another game that was before. that's why i'm frustrated. Because they change course so drastical - it was looking much darker and like this period typical horror game. Just checks screenshots

 

[BFT2020]

I forget about that - still is underpowered. Slugs should be something like him - longer range that bucket and bigger hole but buckshot shells in one hit kill from long range. Well , that's problem - Q6 pump action with mods. I'm too much tired to write why

Not worth arguing with you if you think the shotgun is underpowered.....I don't think you have realistic expectations.

 

[Matt115]

Not worth arguing with you if you think the shotgun is underpowered.....I don't think you have realistic expectations.

 check double barrel shotgun in A11 then  A20 ok? - you will see i'm right. Yeah shotguns were much better that now

 

[Matt115]

Before discussion moves along too far, I just want to suggest that perhaps rushing to optimize your gameplay can also be the path to enjoying this game. This rush to survive is what makes the first days of the game so amazing. I don't think it should be frowned upon. As a new player, and from the game's title, you know right from the start that you are fighting against the clock. As a new player, you feel that sense of accomplishment when you have managed your time successfully and have survived the first blood moon. You have enjoyed it so much, that you are willing to repeat this multiple times and improve upon it each time in preparation for the next one.
 
This urgency due to some impending doom is uncommon in survival games and has contributed greatly towards 7 Days to Die being one of the best survival games of all time. Let's not be too hasty to remove this quality from the game. My point is the game would do better to focus on maintaining the challenge and struggle even if a player attempts to optimize their gameplay as opposed to trying to persuade players that they shouldn't do it at all. 

For a game with so many systems that incorporate randonmess, it is surprising that the randonmess isn't enough on its own to throw a wrench in the works for players who attempt to optimize. It used to be enough. To be a broken record, I think putting so much importance on the traders has in a sense thrown all your eggs into one basket and has nullified everything that the randomness in all those systems were trying to accomplish. 

Well i agree about that : bigger focus on nearest danger would be good motivation -  Honestly blood moon is the best thing in this game. it's a test if your defence is good enought , if your tool is good enough, if you have enought resources etc. But hm... i learn that "level" rushing is bad idea because loot stage is connected with level - so more optimial way is just get bullets , traps etc that  making walls - because upgrading walls let you level up very fast so - bigger level = more zombies but this same stuff. Well zombie love to much sometimes jumping XD

@meganoth @BFT2020 sorry for being so spicy. Worst day 

 

[meganoth]

Secruity etc. is technical part right?

Yes. Just like anything else you need to code to make this game work.

Well i saw few at least people asking for more T5 or even T6 POI, more zombie types so. This woudn't be completely diffrent game right?

You forget you said "etc." . The size of the changes you want for this game is massive, that is my impression at least.

 

[Matt115]

Yes. Just like anything else you need to code to make this game work.

You forget you said "etc." . The size of the changes you want for this game is massive, that is my impression at least.

1. I forget what i mean... XD  probably something about bugs and difficulty 

2. Honestly... this time nope - i saw a lot of people that want new T5 and few that want T6 . For me - 4 more T5 and 4 T6,  2 more zombie types and skeleton props and i will be happy about "basic" game.  RLY it would be good enough. 

 

[Maharin]

If this is wrong I don't want to be right.

Wait, has someone said that already in this thread?

 

[Matt115]

If this is wrong I don't want to be right.

Wait, has someone said that already in this thread?

Nope some words don't have to be said....