PC An in depth discussion on zombie loot in alpha 17

An in depth discussion on zombie loot in alpha 17

  • It is a bad decision. I already know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It is a good decision. I already know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I reserve judgement until I play with it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • This is unimportant. TFP can go either way with this and I won't care.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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You are correct that I skipped over part of the process. Granting that zombies have things on their person when they turn (though arguments have been presented elsewhere for why that wouldn't necessarily be the case), why would somebody (not just me) risk fighting them for the chance of getting it rather than going to the place where their chances are increased and the risk is reasonably less?
Because, like I said, it's fun to kill a zombie and potentially find something cool or useful. Your meat argument from before is a perfect example, actually. Why did TFP make hunting animals possible instead of adding slaughterhouse POIs where you can get much more meat, improving performance in the process by reducing the amount of NPCs? Hell, there are many ways to get meat and food, why hunt in the first place?

Cause hunting for meat is fun, just like it's fun to kill a zombie cop and find a shotgun.

This confuses me. (Not least because it is incongruous for you to say that you would attack a zombie and risk death but you wouldn't climb Everest because of the potential for death.) Maybe because I wasn't clear. Part of the conversation is risk/reward (hence your post 161). Everest is high risk (in terms of potential bodily harm and financial expense) but there is no reward except to do it. Killing a zombie is significantly less risk (though potentially still deadly), so why should it have a reward, whether from an "immersive" or "gameplay" perspective? People will do it just to do it. If that isn't enough motivation, then TFP could add more or you won't kill zombies. It isn't as though this game is about "killing zombies."
I know the game isn't about killing zombies in itself, it's about survival. However, as an open world sandbox experience, the way you approach survival varies within the playerbase. Some might choose avoiding zombies at all costs, and some might choose killing them all.

The difference here is that the kill them all approach has lost the incentive of gaining something in the process, and it's turned into kill them all just because. Sure, you can argue kill them all to survive, but like I said earlier there's no real reason to do that if you can just avoid them, but that's not an approach everyone likes to follow.

Also, when I talked about killing a zombie for its gun I was addressing why it's not a far fetched or unrealistic approach within the boundaries of the game's theme. The Everest thing was just a way to express why not everyone is ok with doing things for the sake of doing them without real incentive.

The trader could sell meat. Meat could be found in refrigerators. It makes sense as a mechanic for meat to be found elsewhere.
I wasn't actually referring to that, I was talking about why having options is good in certain scenarios but not all of them.

 
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Another problem with zombies barely dropping loot, what if you don't build a base close to a town or city? Your base could be miles from a PopNPills or whatever. What if you don't want to keep constantly traveling back and forth over all those miles to try to loot some buildings, especially if you prefer to stay on foot and don't use vehicles?
Well, isn't that the whole point of stopping what madmole referred to as 'meals on wheels'?

From a survival point of view surely it would be fairly mad to set up a base far away from valuable resources hoping that zombies will bring you everything you need.

Edit: To be fair, looting poi's is something I quite enjoy so I may be biased.

 
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Another problem with zombies barely dropping loot, what if you don't build a base close to a town or city? Your base could be miles from a PopNPills or whatever. What if you don't want to keep constantly traveling back and forth over all those miles to try to loot some buildings, especially if you prefer to stay on foot and don't use vehicles?
If you are in the wilderness miles from a PopNPills, why do you think that you are likely to find a nurse zombie? That's a lottery, which you wouldn't be able to count on anyway. You might as well use that argument to guarantee that you find the minibike book or the auger parts.

The only meat that zombies really gave us was their own flesh, if zombie corpses will start despawning faster, where have the devs decided we will get zombie flesh from? The flesh that we use for our fertilizer?
Not really part of the argument, but a different one entirely. To say, "This way creates a problem," is not justification for not doing it. Instead, it means that the devs choose to solve that problem in a different way.

Because, like I said, it's fun to kill a zombie and potentially find something cool or useful. Your meat argument from before is a perfect example, actually. Why did TFP make hunting animals possible instead of adding slaughterhouse POIs where you can get much more meat, improving performance in the process by reducing the amount of NPCs? Hell, there are many ways to get meat and food, why hunt in the first place?
Cause hunting for meat is fun, just like it's fun to kill a zombie cop and find a shotgun.

I wasn't actually referring to that, I was talking about why having options is good in certain scenarios but not all of them.
It is fun for you to potentially find something cool or useful after killing a zombie, and that is an option that TFP has given you up to this point. The point of the meat argument is that TFP chose not to give options in that case, and they now are choosing not to revoke the looting corpses option now. Yes, it is a sandbox game (as you mention below), but at every step TFP gets to decide which options are available. They have inserted and removed those options throughout the process as they deemed fit. As you say, having options is good in certain scenarios but not all of them. TFP has decided that this is a certain scenario in which it is not good. You disagree, and that's fine. You can't pretend though that your way is the only way or that the devs are beholden to leave all options open in this scenario. You grant them that power elsewhere, and it's inconsistent not to grant it to them here.

I know the game isn't about killing zombies in itself, it's about survival. However, as an open world sandbox experience, the way you approach survival varies within the playerbase. Some might choose avoiding zombies at all costs, and some might choose killing them all. The difference here is that the kill them all approach has lost the incentive of gaining something in the process, and it's turned into kill them all just because. Sure, you can argue kill them all to survive, but like I said earlier there's no real reason to do that if you can just avoid them, but that's not an approach everyone likes to follow.

Also, when I talked about killing a zombie for its gun I was addressing why it's not a far fetched or unrealistic approach within the boundaries of the game's theme. The Everest thing was just a way to express why not everyone is ok with doing things for the sake of doing them without real incentive.
Those who would choose to kill them all will do so because it is fun in itself to them. Those who would choose to avoid them all will do so because it is fun in itself to them. The problem is those middle ground people, and that's where incentive comes in. Here's the thing about incentive though: the devs aren't responsible for creating it. If it is part of the devs' vision to make players kill zombies, they can do that without incentive (namely, "the stick" rather than the carrot) even as they could use incentive if they wanted to do so. If the devs are not interested in making players kill zombies, then those middle ground people will have to find the incentive themselves. If you think that killing zombies should be part of the game, then that will be your incentive to kill them sometimes.

I didn't say that killing zombies to find stuff was necessarily far-fetched or unrealistic, only that it isn't necessary in itself. The devs could have chosen to maintain that part and the game would be entirely reasonable. As it is, this new way is reasonable as well. (I will throw you a bone that the new "backpack" method is not my favorite, but it's no different than bags of animal fat dropping on the ground when you are carrying too much stuff while harvesting an animal.)

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@ParadiseLostUKWith me, I prefer to set up a base near a source of water.
And that might put you away from a source of easy looting. It's a survival game, a game of hard choices.

 
This isn't accurate. They had several team meetings about this where they hashed out what the pros and cons would be. It is true that the primary reason it was done was because it would help performance and solve duping issues. But they talked about the ramifications and the pros and cons from a gameplay perspective as well.
They ARE successful game designers after all.
Roland, may be zombie must disappear as in Resident Evil:

(bulbous, liquid or mud will be look good)
When zombie disappear in a moment it like very bad! (

 
@ParadiseLostUKWith me, I prefer to set up a base near a source of water.
It's all about location for sure, I would personally prefer something near to or even in a city. Water sources can be made fairly easily, adequate loot not so much. I've never really found the zombie loot to be particularly useful thus far.

 
Roland, may be zombie must disappear as in Resident Evil:
That is a placeholder. They will replace the sudden disappearance with something to hide it or some kind of effect or make it last longer and wait until it is out of view....something. There is a plan. What you saw in the video is not the intended final product. Please remember that we paid to be part of the construction process so we get to see things that are currently under construction.

 
It is fun for you to potentially find something cool or useful after killing a zombie, and that is an option that TFP has given you up to this point. The point of the meat argument is that TFP chose not to give options in that case, and they now are choosing not to revoke the looting corpses option now. Yes, it is a sandbox game (as you mention below), but at every step TFP gets to decide which options are available. They have inserted and removed those options throughout the process as they deemed fit. As you say, having options is good in certain scenarios but not all of them. TFP has decided that this is a certain scenario in which it is not good. You disagree, and that's fine. You can't pretend though that your way is the only way or that the devs are beholden to leave all options open in this scenario. You grant them that power elsewhere, and it's inconsistent not to grant it to them here.
No, it's not fun for me, it's fun for a very great number of players that up until now were happily looting zombies without a worry in the world for the past 16 alphas, and now the developers have removed that fun from the game, thus making many people mad and thus starting #LootGate.

Yes, TFP can decide to do whatever they want with their game. No, that doesn't mean all their decisions are good, and I don't remember saying my way was the only way or that the devs are beholden to leave all options open, but I can certainly speak my reasons why I'm against their judgement and focus on fixing things that aren't broken, and I'm certainly not the only one doing so.

Those who would choose to kill them all will do so because it is fun in itself to them. Those who would choose to avoid them all will do so because it is fun in itself to them. The problem is those middle ground people, and that's where incentive comes in. Here's the thing about incentive though: the devs aren't responsible for creating it. If it is part of the devs' vision to make players kill zombies, they can do that without incentive (namely, "the stick" rather than the carrot) even as they could use incentive if they wanted to do so. If the devs are not interested in making players kill zombies, then those middle ground people will have to find the incentive themselves. If you think that killing zombies should be part of the game, then that will be your incentive to kill them sometimes.
Of course they are responsible for creating incentive, otherwise players end up asking themselves why bother with certain mechanics?. There are many things in the game that have always bothered many players because they rendered important aspects of it pointless.

Up until a certain point, starving to death and dying of thirst weren't a thing; not kidding, it didn't actually matter if your bars remained empty back in previous alphas. What was the point of food and water?

Infection and dysentery have always been quite flawed. No one even knew infection could actually kill you, because it took no less than 7 whole days, and by that time everyone had a stock of antibiotics; and dysentery was so ridiculously easy to cure no one knew it had a 2nd stage. What's the point of those buffs?

Many people want food spoilage because there's no point in farming or hunting anymore if you have piles upon piles of meat lying around.

The blunderbuss... well... we don't talk about the blunderbuss.

What I'm saying is that the developers are quite responsible for the incentive the players get in the game. Without incentive, there's little purpose. It's the reason why there are horde nights, because otherwise having a base is useless. Sure, you could build for the fun of it, but there's no more purpose than that. Same applies here, sure, you could kill zombies just for the fun of killing zombies and nothing else, but that's the only purpose to it; and sure, many people are ok with that, but many others find it disappointing, especially when you could favour everyone like all the previous alphas.

I didn't say that killing zombies to find stuff was necessarily far-fetched or unrealistic, only that it isn't necessary in itself. The devs could have chosen to maintain that part and the game would be entirely reasonable. As it is, this new way is reasonable as well. (I will throw you a bone that the new "backpack" method is not my favorite, but it's no different than bags of animal fat dropping on the ground when you are carrying too much stuff while harvesting an animal.)
And that might put you away from a source of easy looting. It's a survival game, a game of hard choices.
You did say that, immersion wise, no one would risk their life to loot corpses. I argued that given the theme of the game, it was plausible, that's where the argument came from. Sure, it isn't necessary, but they're entirely removing a whole aspect of the game. It's just reasonable that people would be bummed about it.

 
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No, it's not fun for me, it's fun for a very great number of players that up until now were happily looting zombies without a worry in the world for the past 16 alphas, and now the developers have removed that fun from the game, thus making many people mad and thus starting #LootGate.
Xtra is right, this isnt just some solo crusade he is on, every single players from Alpha 1 has got used to and mainly enjoyed this, one thing not mentioned yet is that the zombies are an infrequent but steady supplier of schematics, yet another area where the grind will be increased

 
You'll still be looting loot containers from the Z's that had loot. What's the difference?

Oh, you miss out on 3 corpse items that can be easily farmed/re-balanced in other areas of the game.

Did no one seriously consider this?

 
You'll still be looting loot containers from the Z's that had loot. What's the difference?
Oh, you miss out on 3 corpse items that can be easily farmed/re-balanced in other areas of the game.

Did no one seriously consider this?
The difference is that now hardly any zombie will have loot, and the ones that pop backpacks won't have anything of value. Obviously, if this is the case, it's not practical to have that mechanic.

 
Xtra is right, this isnt just some solo crusade he is on, every single players from Alpha 1 has got used to and mainly enjoyed this, one thing not mentioned yet is that the zombies are an infrequent but steady supplier of schematics, yet another area where the grind will be increased
Does this answer your problem for the grind...

(I don't know how to multi quote so I'm doing it with a picture)

http://upload.bg/?get_file=3c9e14d7cfb2fbd6d97aaad6cdf1fe32787e8f43&inline

(post can be found in Dev Diary or through faatal's profile by searching chassis)

To me this means schematics will be scrapped in the future. Maybe...

Maybe not.

Just wanted to give the info.

Sorry I know this post isn't about what this thread is.

 
The blunderbuss... well... we don't talk about the blunderbuss.
What about the blunderbuss that people don't talk about? The fact that the blunderbuss is an awesome weapon. The only firearm we can create, it rips zombies apart better than a shotgun, the sounds added for it are just pure heaven.

 
It's not about it being essential or not, it's about it being fun and immersive. There's no point in having different types of zombies with different types of health if none have any interesting loot worth fighting for. Previously, if you had low health or were infected, it was cool to go out looking for nurses in case they had medical equipment. It makes sense, they're nurses. Now that's not the case, and instead of having a dynamic system based on zombie types we have backpacks popping out of nowhere sometimes, not to mention the removal of the corpse harvesting for bones and meat.
About immersive: You think it is immersive because you got conditioned by the game to think this is normal. If you watch any zombie movie you would realize that film makers think differently about what is more realistic (well, ok, not the best argument to make, movies and realism :cocksure: , but it is the richest source of lore about zombies we have). In movies they go to pop&pills, not single out zombie nurses.

In real life nurses should not have pills in their pockets, they transport them in small cups on trays. They have everything on trays.

Soldiers should almost never have rifles because we can assume they were fighting with the zombies and then dropping the weapon in their hand. But ok, ammunition seems likely. A farmer should never have a hark because again he would drop it as a zombie. A Lumberjack may never have an axe, he would have dropped it. So even if we accept zombies as lot bringers half the stuff you find on them in A16 should break your immersion, not reinforce it. But really, we all are conditioned to think this is correct because of playing this game for so long.

About fun: Any shooter shows that you don't need an incentive to shoot stuff. So either you like shooting them, then that is incentive enough. Or not, then you have an alternative in stealth. The looting fix can be sated in any building.

 
No, it's not fun for me, it's fun for a very great number of players that up until now were happily looting zombies without a worry in the world for the past 16 alphas, and now the developers have removed that fun from the game, thus making many people mad and thus starting #LootGate.
Read "for you (and people like you)." It seems intentionally obtuse for you to think that I'm just referring to you. I'm talking to you, hence I address you. At the same time, you are representative of them (in some ways, so don't go pinning me down as saying that everybody who agrees with you on this particular point necessarily agrees with you on every point).

Yes, TFP can decide to do whatever they want with their game. No, that doesn't mean all their decisions are good, and I don't remember saying my way was the only way or that the devs are beholden to leave all options open, but I can certainly speak my reasons why I'm against their judgement and focus on fixing things that aren't broken, and I'm certainly not the only one doing so.
"Good" is a relative term, as in, it is dependent upon the perspective of the subject making that judgment. If TFP has made a decision in the game, they have decided that it is good. It may not be absolutely good, but it is good enough for the moment. That's something to bear in mind since we are playing an early access game.

As for the rest, you can speak your reasons, but in your post which prompted this discussion (a response to one of mine), you didn't just state your reasons or preferences. You stated that my argument was flawed (which I rebutted) and you qualified your position by saying that it is "way better." I get into these discussions precisely to point out that there are other ways of looking at things, ways which themselves are consistent and "good." Just because you don't initially see them or don't agree doesn't change that.

Of course they are responsible for creating incentive, otherwise players end up asking themselves why bother with certain mechanics?. There are many things in the game that have always bothered many players because they rendered important aspects of it pointless...What I'm saying is that the developers are quite responsible for the incentive the players get in the game. Without incentive, there's little purpose. It's the reason why there are horde nights, because otherwise having a base is useless. Sure, you could build for the fun of it, but there's no more purpose than that. Same applies here, sure, you could kill zombies just for the fun of killing zombies and nothing else, but that's the only purpose to it; and sure, many people are ok with that, but many others find it disappointing, especially when you could favour everyone like all the previous alphas.
The devs are responsible for creating incentive (or punishment) for the things that they want to emphasize. They are not responsible for creating incentive (or punishment) for things that the players want to emphasize. (Let's skip over the talk about money.) If the devs want to leave an aspect of the game as "take-it-or-leave-it," then players should take that to mean that they have more choice in that matter. (It's also an implicit invitation to mod it to your desires.) Notice that TFP thinks it is very important that the players face the bloodmoon hordes: They are taking steps to make that even more important, and the player has much less choice in that matter.

I do reject your point about purpose. People will build things without in-game purpose because they like to do so (see early Minecraft). Hell, what about all of those people who like to decorate their bases with things that have no in-game purpose. There are no cries to give decorating purpose. People will generate their own purpose, and people who don't won't play the game (like I don't play Minecraft) or at the very least won't engage in "purposeless" aspects of the game. If TFP wants them to engage in those parts, then they will make adjustments accordingly. (see above paragraph)

You did say that, immersion wise, no one would risk their life to loot corpses. I argued that given the theme of the game, it was plausible, that's where the argument came from. Sure, it isn't necessary, but they're entirely removing a whole aspect of the game. It's just reasonable that people would be bummed about it.
It is reasonable that people would be bummed about something they like being removed from the game. Let them post that they don't like a change and be done with it. Arguments for why their perspective deserves a hearing is to misunderstand how this relationship works. Suggestions for something that you think might be good are a different beast, and I think that is welcome if TFP is open to the idea. When TFP already has made a decision (after conversations about it, as Roland pointed out), then it just becomes whining.

I should point out that I don't get grousing in threads where people are throwing out ideas. Brainstorming is a fine thing. Pimp dreaming is a fine thing. Justifying yourself in the face of TFP's opposite decision? Not so much. (I mean, you are allowed to do that, and I won't stop you. However, I will press you on it.)

Edit:

Xtra is right, this isnt just some solo crusade he is on, every single players from Alpha 1 has got used to and mainly enjoyed this, one thing not mentioned yet is that the zombies are an infrequent but steady supplier of schematics, yet another area where the grind will be increased
And yet, the fact that he is not alone in his opinion does not increase the stature of his argument.

 
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About immersive: You think it is immersive because you got conditioned by the game to think this is normal...But really, we all are conditioned to think this is correct because of playing this game for so long.
As evidenced by bloom_meister's repeated references to "back to Alpha 1." Alpha 1 was not the final product.

I had a wise friend tell me that he wasn't looking forward to A17's changes, and he used that dislike of the changes to make a point: "This is why I don't generally play EA games: They're always changing into a 'new game' that I don't like. I should just wait for the final product to see if I will like it."

 
This isn't accurate. They had several team meetings about this where they hashed out what the pros and cons would be. It is true that the primary reason it was done was because it would help performance and solve duping issues. But they talked about the ramifications and the pros and cons from a gameplay perspective as well.
They ARE successful game designers after all.

They came to the conclusion that in addition to performance gains and ending duping they also wanted to end the meta of farming zombies for mats. You know those old Looney Toon cartoons where the shipwrecked characters see each other as a hamburger and hotdog because they're hungry? The devs felt that too many people look at zombies and see pinatas.

They discussed and came to the conclusion that this is what they wanted to do months ago.

I get the feeling that people assume that the change was a last minute decision by Joel alone and stuck in right before Joel did his video. Not true. It has been implemented for quite awhile but just not revealed. We have genius devs who have made this amazing game but as soon as they do something someone doesn't prefer then all of a sudden they are dopey devs throwing in something stupid that didn't need to be changed to take away choices etc.

The devs can make bad choices. I'm not saying that they can't. However, they've never just done something thoughtlessly. Remember, Madmole, Faatal, Kinyajuu, The Fun Pimp, Prime, Gazz...all smart guys all voted and came to consensus about this particular design choice after debating it and talking about it. Yes, they all could be wrong and it could be the worst decision. But it also isn't a final decision. It is a development experimental decision and they are going to see where it leads.

In my own experience:

Experience points are still plenty of incentive to kill zombies.

There is still the chance of getting loot.

The interaction text on the screen being gone is a fantastic improvement for immersion.

Other choices like stealth, misdirection, avoidance, leading away, etc. are now more equally viable to killing.

Killing and moving on without opening a container menu each time is nice.

It reminded me of when they removed experience for crafting at workstations. Once that was gone it was freeing. At first glance it was taking away an incentive to craft at a station but the result was no more playing the game of menus and timer watching. As I said, not everyone will like it and some will scratch their heads about the why. But assuming that it was thoughtlessly put in without thinking through the gameplay ramifications just because you just barely heard about it is inaccurate.

Faatal, Kinyajuu, Prime, The Fun Pimp, Madmole, Gazz....you really think these guys just use a Magic 8-ball to come up with this stuff?
The part I don't understand is that this has been a core feature of the game since the very beginning. They have put significant work into making it what it is today. It is a very significant aspect of what the game is and what the game has been since 2014. (When I started)

If it was killing performance and stopping TFP from adding or updating some new significant feature I can at least understand it.

But to remove a feature that was complete and I have never heard a complaint about in the 10th or 11th hour of development because of a change of heart just makes no sense to me.

 
Read "for you (and people like you)." It seems intentionally obtuse for you to think that I'm just referring to you. I'm talking to you, hence I address you. At the same time, you are representative of them (in some ways, so don't go pinning me down as saying that everybody who agrees with you on this particular point necessarily agrees with you on every point).
Umm, not like arguing this point really matters, but you did put emphasis in you as in directly addressing me alone, and the way of phrasing really gave the idea that you were reducing the problem to one person's opinion against the rest.

Anyhow, I have read your post but I feel like this is now a matter of agreeing to disagree. In the end, like I said, I may end up liking it, or the devs might decide to change it again afterwards, but as for now I've given my 2 cents.

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But to remove a feature that was complete and I have never heard a complaint about in the 10th or 11th hour of development because of a change of heart just makes no sense to me.
This, in a nutshell, is my entire point.

 
...
That's where we started: Zombies shouldn't be loot caravans. Surviving zombies is the reward. The game is a survival game. (Also, in what zombie universe do people choose to engage zombies if they have any other choice?)

Let's try this: Why should zombies have loot?

Additionally, aside from loot, how would you incentivize killing zombies?
This is the worst argument ever. This game is meant to be fun,

Surviving zombies being the reward is not fun in this game they would have to completely redo the entire combat and ai of this game for surviving to to be the only joy of the game.

Surviving is not fun, thriving is.

 
Umm, not like arguing this point really matters, but you did put emphasis in you as in directly addressing me alone, and the way of phrasing really gave the idea that you were reducing the problem to one person's opinion against the rest.
I see how that was unclear. It was "you," as in, "not me." Anybody who finds themselves aligned with the respective positions can find themselves in one of those two identifiers.

This, in a nutshell, is my entire point.
It doesn't have to make sense to you (or anyone). That it doesn't make sense to those outside of TFP does not lend credence to any of the arguments against TFP's decision.

 
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