PC An in depth discussion on zombie loot in alpha 17

[Roland]

Jesus. Now you're stretching it; I think the kool-aid has gotten to your brain.
The PROPER response to this entire nonsense would have been:

We decided to lower the loot spawns on zombies and remove the entities as loot containers, as they were affecting performance more than we had liked. We hope to re-visit this in the future once optimizations are complete.

Period.

You mean like this?

Was it purely for performance and dupe avoidance? Yes.

1) Zombies can't be looted. This was changed for performance reasons and to solve myriad duping exploits.

I'm not stretching anything. I'm giving you my own feelings after having played it. You want to dismiss my hands-on impressions as just "koolaid" because your conjecture and assumptions are....more real? more authentic? No...I know what it is. You want to shoehorn this issue in with your whole "dumbing down the game" narrative that you yourself like to spin. Has dumbing down happened? Yes. I think that's obvious. Is this particular issue about that? Not even close and if anyone has a bunch of koolaid they're mixing up to try and serve the community it's you trying to make this be about them intending to dumb down the game.

And I've been honest about this from the start.

I have stated before several times that the purpose was for optimization and solving the duping issues. That is exactly what was announced to me. I have stated before that I was disappointed in the news and didn't think I would like it.

Then I played with it and once the initial adaptation wore off I found that I liked it. I didn't miss checking every corpse for loot or cleaning up bodies and I did like retrieving my arrows from them. I really liked the side effect of not being entirely sure when they were finally dead for good. On the rare occasion a loot bag dropped it was a happy moment. While I fought zombies, the wonder about whether there would be a loot drop was still there. I still earned xp from killing zombies so there was still a reward for doing it especially when I knew I was close to a level up. I will pause at this point and say that I don't generally like that kind of meta where you are thinking about leveling up instead of just playing the game so even though I feel the incentive and do feel excitement when that level up sound triggers I don't think it is a good thing for the game. I'd be very happy if the blue xp bar were removed from the main screen.

But hey--- go ahead and try to marginalize my perspective by casting me as some robotic yes-man who dishonestly spins issues because that is my job. I've always striven to be intellectually honest in my assessment of the game and design choices I like or dislike. Privately you tell me you trust me and appreciate my perspective but publicly when it suits your own view I notice you like to set me up as "that company man the community really can't trust because he's got a script he's working from."

 

[Guppycur]

Well no, I mean like this:

Not completely gone IF you killed them with arrows. Anytime you want that feeling back use arrows or bolts and once again you will think to yourself "I could run, or I could take a few chances and loot those zombies on the ground of their arrows..."

...so I gotta spin around 3 times clicking my red heels while the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with mars, just to get a marginalised experience of something I like?

To quote the great burton guster, "c'mon son..."

You're better than that. THAT, I trust.

 

[Roland]

Whatever Guppycur... I wouldn't characterize shooting zombies with your bow and arrow as doing some difficult to pull off magical ritual though maybe it is for you. <shrug>

I can't speak for anyone else. Perhaps you will hate it and feel a deep sense of loss not being able to loot zombie corpses. I can't say that you won't. I will say that in my experience the fun of retrieving arrows from zombies before they disappear while fighting a wandering horde is more than enough compensation for the loss of opening a container menu at each body to see what I might get. Maybe you'll end up agreeing with me and maybe not. But it is my true experience and when I line up the loot I might get from 10 zombies in A16 with all the arrows I retrieve from 10 zombies in A17 I'm going to have to say that I'm getting better value in general with A17. Yes, that's early game and that might not be true if someone doesn't use arrows or bolts later.

But it is my true experience and I resent the idea that you like to spout off that Joel sends me some kind of talking points memo about how to spin stuff to sound better for TFP.

 

[Jugginator]

All I know is that I already like it. For one, when I kill a zombie or two on the move, these things happen and usually in order:

1. I don't want to loot it and keep moving to where I need to be going too

2. Remembering that theres a possibility of loot being on the corpse and saying ♥♥♥♥ it it's prob an empty can or some wood or other bs I don't need

3. Running past it then saying "God damnit fine the gore block's going to forever be there, clogging up the memory"

4. Throwing a skirt on the ground because I don't need it then chopping the block up so it goes away

5. Kill a zombie that comes up

6. *sigh*

If the chance of bs loot is gone and only a rare drop that's in a neat back-pack, you'll stop freaking out about missing your epic garbage and having to destroy goreblocks. Stop stressing the small stuff and be happy. And I'm pretty sure they thought of missing bones and animal fat when they did it and plan on balancing something to compensate. Chill.

 

[Jedo]

Well no, I mean like this:

...so I gotta spin around 3 times clicking my red heels while the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with mars, just to get a marginalised experience of something I like?

To quote the great burton guster, "c'mon son..."

You're better than that. THAT, I trust.

I see that there's no mention of Pluto in there. That's messed up.

- - - Updated - - -

But it is my true experience and I resent the idea that you like to spout off that Joel sends me some kind of talking points memo about how to spin stuff to sound better for TFP.

Do you really believe that of Roland, Guppy? I expected better of you. You know that Joel doesn't have a PR bone in his body (and now you couldn't harvest it even if he did).

 

[Roland]

I should’ve said that Rick sends me...

 

[Guppycur]

I see that there's no mention of Pluto in there. That's messed up.
- - - Updated - - -

Do you really believe that of Roland, Guppy? I expected better of you. You know that Joel doesn't have a PR bone in his body (and now you couldn't harvest it even if he did).

No, but I do believe Roland is having a bad day, so I'm cool with dropping it.

 

[wildaxeman1]

i like looting deads, but it is sometimes too easy. getting less loot with better quality may be good desicion. we will see, how it turns out. i can not say yes or no right now.

 

[cnconrad]

You mean like this?




I'm not stretching anything. I'm giving you my own feelings after having played it. You want to dismiss my hands-on impressions as just "koolaid" because your conjecture and assumptions are....more real? more authentic? No...I know what it is. You want to shoehorn this issue in with your whole "dumbing down the game" narrative that you yourself like to spin. Has dumbing down happened? Yes. I think that's obvious. Is this particular issue about that? Not even close and if anyone has a bunch of koolaid they're mixing up to try and serve the community it's you trying to make this be about them intending to dumb down the game.

And I've been honest about this from the start.

I have stated before several times that the purpose was for optimization and solving the duping issues. That is exactly what was announced to me. I have stated before that I was disappointed in the news and didn't think I would like it.

Then I played with it and once the initial adaptation wore off I found that I liked it. I didn't miss checking every corpse for loot or cleaning up bodies and I did like retrieving my arrows from them. I really liked the side effect of not being entirely sure when they were finally dead for good. On the rare occasion a loot bag dropped it was a happy moment. While I fought zombies, the wonder about whether there would be a loot drop was still there. I still earned xp from killing zombies so there was still a reward for doing it especially when I knew I was close to a level up. I will pause at this point and say that I don't generally like that kind of meta where you are thinking about leveling up instead of just playing the game so even though I feel the incentive and do feel excitement when that level up sound triggers I don't think it is a good thing for the game. I'd be very happy if the blue xp bar were removed from the main screen.

But hey--- go ahead and try to marginalize my perspective by casting me as some robotic yes-man who dishonestly spins issues because that is my job. I've always striven to be intellectually honest in my assessment of the game and design choices I like or dislike. Privately you tell me you trust me and appreciate my perspective but publicly when it suits your own view I notice you like to set me up as "that company man the community really can't trust because he's got a script he's working from."

As I assume you remember I am 100% against the removal of zombie loots. (Granted im not as active as I use to be but im a vet here)

It changes the game in a way I do not care for. But, i understand that there are forces that we do not see. I certainly hope this gets revisited if possible but I do appreciate that you are being honest about it being a necessary evil.

I cant blame you for trying to put a positive spin on it. After all telling us that you guys made the change to zombie loot even though it was not something anyone wanted or asked for, but were forced to because of limitations and then focusing on all the negative aspects of the change will not make anyone any happier.

We can female dog and moan about things we don't like but you as a mod/representative do need to be a bit more open minded and tactful when discussing changes. You cant just vent like we do.

So I will continue to dislike this change, i wont hold it against you for trying to show some positives.

Edit: There is that more clear? I think you were reading a tone into my post that was actually the opposite of what i meant.

 

[bloom_meister]

But it is my true experience and I admit that Joel sends me some kind of talking points memo about how to spin stuff to sound better for TFP.

There ya go, fixed it for ya!

 

[Roland]

As I assume you remember I am 100% against the removal of zombie loots. (Granted im not as active as I use to be but im a vet here)
It changes the game in a way I do not care for. But, i understand that there are forces that we do not see. I certainly hope this gets revisited if possible but I do appreciate that you are being honest about it being a necessary evil.

I cant blame you for trying to put a positive spin on it. After all saying that you did something you didn't want to but were forced to because of limitations and that you really don't like and continuing to point out how negative it is, well the result wont make anyone any happier. We can female dog and moan about things we don't like but you do need to be a bit more open minded and tactful.

So I will continue to dislike this change, i wont hold it against you for trying to show some positives.

(Edit I know YOU didnt do it, more stating at a type of representative of TFP)

Oi vey...

What did I do that I didn't want to but was forced to because of limitations?

What do I really not like but continue to point out how negative it is?

What am I being closed minded to?

I was accused of being a shill for the company by drinking koolaid and dishonestly spinning facts to hide an agenda that TFP has to dumb down the game (Is it for console Guppy?). I think my reply to that accusation was pretty darn tactful. Or are you referring to other times?

Am I not understanding you? Help me out because I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

 

[cnconrad]

Oi vey...
What did I do that I didn't want to but was forced to because of limitations?

What do I really not like but continue to point out how negative it is?

What am I being closed minded to?

I was accused of being a shill for the company by drinking koolaid and dishonestly spinning facts to hide an agenda that TFP has to dumb down the game (Is it for console Guppy?). I think my reply to that accusation was pretty darn tactful. Or are you referring to other times?

Am I not understanding you? Help me out because I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

It was poorly worded.

I was attempting to compliment you for admitting that it was not a ideal design change and it was done for technical reasons. You said that you didn't think it was a good idea at first but have gotten around to liking it.

I was merely saying its understandable that you are trying to point out the positive rather than joining the crap on the changes train. Trying to focus on the positives is not the same thing as being a shill.

Is that more clear? I may have put some double and even triple negatives in there so it may have been hard to follow.

All that being said, I still do not like the change and don't really see it being something I will ever like, there is something very satisfying to seeing the carnage of a whole blood moon horde outside your base as the sun rises.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Meh, premature ventilation.

That's what this all is.

Until we get to try it out, passing judgement on it, is just not warranted, and I say that as someone who enjoyed very much the sea of dead bodies lying at my feet on the dawn of an 8th day.

 

[Roland]

It was poorly worded.
I was attempting to compliment you for admitting that it was not a ideal design change and it was done for technical reasons. You said that you didn't think it was a good idea at first but have gotten around to liking it.

I was merely saying its understandable that you are trying to point out the positive rather than joining the crap on the changes train. Trying to focus on the positives is not the same thing as being a shill.

Is that more clear? I may have put some double and even triple negatives in there so it may have been hard to follow.

All that being said, I still do not like the change and don't really see it being something I will ever like, there is something very satisfying to seeing the carnage of a whole blood moon horde outside your base as the sun rises.

Gotcha. My mood probably didn’t help me understand either as I was probably looking to be attacked. Thanks for your words.

I know that some of you might never like the change and I’m sorry if my posts come across as saying you SHOULD like the change. That’s not my intent. I’m just sharing the positive that I found in it but each person’s mileage will vary.

It will certainly make for lots of forum discussion during the months following the A17 release. I’m keen to see how many end up hating it, how many end up liking it, and what can be done about it modding wise.

 

[Colin248]

Gotcha. My mood probably didn’t help me understand either as I was probably looking to be attacked. Thanks for your words.
I know that some of you might never like the change and I’m sorry if my posts come across as saying you SHOULD like the change. That’s not my intent. I’m just sharing the positive that I found in it but each person’s mileage will vary.

It will certainly make for lots of forum discussion during the months following the A17 release. I’m keen to see how many end up hating it, how many end up liking it, and what can be done about it modding wise.

thats my only question realy about all this. lets say the backlash is... fierce. how simple would it be to give them there drop tables back? not the gore blocks, im fine with that vanishing but just having them on there person. i duno if you can answer it but worth asking.

 

[bloom_meister]

Gotcha. My mood probably didn’t help me understand either as I was probably looking to be attacked. Thanks for your words.
I know that some of you might never like the change and I’m sorry if my posts come across as saying you SHOULD like the change. That’s not my intent. I’m just sharing the positive that I found in it but each person’s mileage will vary.

It will certainly make for lots of forum discussion during the months following the A17 release. I’m keen to see how many end up hating it, how many end up liking it, and what can be done about it modding wise.

We know you're basically pretty honest and try and tell it like it is Roland and appreciate that but as a 'spokesperson' (kinda) then occasionally youre gonna get run over by the hype train and turned into roadkill

 

[Rez090]

If zombie bodies are gonna instant despawn, how am I supposed to get my zombie flesh for fertilizer?

If zombies will not hardly drop any loot, what is my incentive to engage them in combat? I'm not gonna waste my arrows or bullets or club just for 1 zombie out of say 15 to drop loot.

And why are TFP trying to add zombie 'bosses'? Save bosses for when you finally decide to implement raiders, I'd rather have a boss that can actually fight me and makes the fight more engaging than some zombie that isn't unique who just gets a health bump and done.

 

[Jedo]

If zombie bodies are gonna instant despawn, how am I supposed to get my zombie flesh for fertilizer?
If zombies will not hardly drop any loot, what is my incentive to engage them in combat? I'm not gonna waste my arrows or bullets or club just for 1 zombie out of say 15 to drop loot.

And why are TFP trying to add zombie 'bosses'? Save bosses for when you finally decide to implement raiders, I'd rather have a boss that can actually fight me and makes the fight more engaging than some zombie that isn't unique who just gets a health bump and done.

1) That remains to be seen. It may be nerfed. It may come from a different source.

2) Your incentive is staying alive. Zombies are not loot caravans. (In a different vein, TFP might be using psychology. People will still do something even if there's only a low probability of success. See gambling.)

3) You already know that by "boss" TFP means "big bullet sponge"? Maybe that's a reasonable assumption, but it's an assumption nonetheless. Instead of worrying about it, you could wait to get your panties in a twist when you actually know.

 

[meganoth]

About this "only for performance sake": I remember Gazz posting a while ago that he wants to remove the sea of corpse blocks that makes the aftermath of later horde nights a boring grind fest (yes, I know some of you like that, I'm as astonished about your tastes as you are probably about mine). For me it was immediately in the top 5 of features I wanted from A17 (only topped by ai fixes and gyrocopter).

Now I don't think Gazz is the type of developer you can put in front of a spin campaign and I really think the idea has advantages (and disadvantages, sure). My guess is the idea was put in because of above and "zombies are danger not loot". But when they tested it they saw the performance difference and THAT convinced the other developers of the idea. So now performance is the reason they do it, but that doesn't mean the other reasons are moot or go away if the performance hit of gore blocks is resolved. Just my theory, no need to tell me I have no proof.

In my opinion, if gore blocks ever return, they better stack so that zombies can climb over walls with them. So at least they have some other uses apart from loot provider for horde night (where other methods are more elegant) and adrenaline fix for instant gratification junkies

 

[Guppycur]

Boss doesn't /have/ to mean bullet sponge... The goblin shamans in medieval mod were one hits, but damned if you wanted one near your base... Necromancers ... Don't even get me started.

And no, I'm not pitching the mod, I'm pointing out that giving bosses a purpose that would frack up your game is possible, making them bosses, without having to make them 10k hp.

Screamers were a step in the right direction in vanilla.