PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

meganoth · Jul 25, 2022

mstdv inc said:
Perhaps it makes sense to add a modification for dew collector, which will allow you to collect more water in order to balance the number of new workstations in relation to existing ones.Usually in my game I don't use more than 2 forges, 2 workbenches and 1 chemical station.A large farm of 10 or more dew collector would look strange.Modification (or several levels of it?) would reduce the number of new working combinations to 2-3 in a late game for one player.

Since most often I build my bases from scratch, I will have to spend a lot more construction resources and time to build the necessary base area, taking into account the large number of dew collector.This is unlikely to be convenient.

When I played as the farmer in our group in an A19 game last year I put the farm plots in a corner just ~10 meters away from the base. We used that base as a horde base for the first 5 hordes at least and I lost at most 2 plots if any at all.

We often put a farm near our crafting base and compared to the effort some others seem to make into securing their farm our losses are definitely negligible.

And if we dug holes and dropped the plots into those holes there would be even less chance of a loss, you would need to shoot policemen while they are standing on your plots to make that happen.

POCKET951 · Jul 25, 2022

BFT2020 said:
Actually a little sad to hear those are gone. I try to see how long I can go without having to create mines for materials based on either gathering materials through looting /scalvaging or just taking 1-2 layers off of the top (like the ore nodes on top or rocks, or digging two layers down in the ground). Those cans were a nice source of scrap iron for me.

Though I can easily mod them back in if I want to.

They were a source of iron, but I think in the grand scheme of things if you spent 10 minutes hitting iron with decent harvest perks you would make up any scrap iron deficit from all the cans you can no longer scrap

BFT2020 · Jul 25, 2022

schwanz9000 said:
The dew collector is not the only way to get jars of water. Do you guys not quest or loot POI's? There is plenty of murky water out there to be found.

No, we focus on one change only and completely ignore all other aspects of the game

I think someone mention bottlegate or jargate a few pages back

POCKET951 said:
They were a source of iron, but I think in the grand scheme of things if you spent 10 minutes hitting iron with decent harvest perks you would make up any scrap iron deficit from all the cans you can no longer scrap

I am on Day 16th with no harvest perks and have yet to use the pickaxes to harvest anything (just to break off the faucets in the POIs to melt down). I know I can mine (and have done so in the past with some very elaborate mining), but in my more recent playthroughs I am trying to see how far I can go with just salvaging and buried supply quests (for clay in the forge).

When I get through my currently playthrough, I am going to mod those out (along with jars) to see what it will be like. I won't have the dew collectors obviously, but I can always start giving myself the equivalent through CM to see how this goes.

I think I will be okay. First it's lot less paper in bookcases, then they are removing jars. Now I find out that empty cans are gone too. It's a lot to take in, but I can be tough when A21 drops.

RipClaw · Jul 25, 2022

BFT2020 said:
When I get through my currently playthrough, I am going to mod those out (along with jars) to see what it will be like. I won't have the dew collectors obviously, but I can always start giving myself the equivalent through CM to see how this goes.

A mod to create a dew collector should not be that hard to make. You just have to create a block that uses the game mechanics of the plants. The auto miner in the Apocalypse Now mod and the oil pumps in the Warzuk mod both work on this principle. The autominer uses a existing model and treat it like a plant. After a certain time the block is replaced with another block and in the inventory are the ressources.

This is the code from Warzuk Mod for the oil pump.

<block name="HDPumpJackE">
<property name="UnlockedBy" value="HDPumpJackE Schematic"/>
<property name="DescriptionKey" value="HDPJEDesc"/>
<property name="Class" value="PlantGrowing"/>
<property name="CustomIcon" value="HD Pump Jack" />
<property name="Material" value="Mmetal"/>
<property name="StabilitySupport" value="true"/>
<property name="Model" value="#@modfolder:Resources/HD Pump Jack.unity3d?HD Pump Jack Empty.Prefab"/> 
<property name="Shape" value="ModelEntity"/>
<property name="MaxDamage" value="1000"/>
<property name="MultiBlockDim" value="1,3,3"/>
<property name="ImposterDontBlock" value="true"/>
<property name="PlantGrowing.Next" value="HDPumpJackF"/>
<property name="PlantGrowing.GrowthRate" value="20"/>
<property name="PlantGrowing.IsRandom" value="false"/>
<property name="PlantGrowing.FertileLevel" value="0"/>
<property name="PlantGrowing.LightLevelGrow" value="0"/>
<property name="PlantGrowing.LightLevelStay" value="0"/>
<property name="Collide" value="melee,bullet,arrow,rocket"/>
<drop event="Destroy" name="HDPumpJackE" count="1" />
<drop event="Fall" name="scrapMetalPile" count="1" prob="0.75" stick_chance="1"/>
<property class="RepairItems">
<property name="resourceForgedIron" value="10"/>
</property>
</block>

<block name="HDPumpJackF">
<property name="CreativeMode" value="Dev"/>
<property name="CustomIcon" value="HD Pump Jack" />
<property name="Class" value="Loot" />
<property name="Material" value="Mmetal"/>
<property name="Shape" value="ModelEntity" />
<property name="Model" value="#@modfolder:Resources/HD Pump Jack.unity3d?HD Pump Jack Full.Prefab"/> 
<property name="Collide" value="movement,rockets,sight,melee" />
<property name="DisplayType" value="blockMulti" />
<property name="MultiBlockDim" value="1,3,3"/>
<property name="Collide" value="movement,rockets,sight,melee" />
<property name="LootList" value="HDPumpJackF" />
<drop event="Destroy" count="0"/>
<drop event="Fall" name="scrapMetalPile" count="1" prob="0.75" stick_chance="1"/>
<property name="DowngradeBlock" value="HDPumpJackE"/>
</block>

This is the code for the autominer in the Apocalypse Now mod

Code:

&lt;block name="AutoMinerEmpty"&gt;
	&lt;property name="Material" value="Mmetal"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Shape" value="ModelEntity"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Model" value="Entities/Industrial/controlPanelBase_01Prefab"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Place" value="TowardsPlacerInverted"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Path" value="solid"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="CustomIcon" value="controlPanelBase01"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="DescriptionKey" value="AutoMinerDesc"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="ImposterExchange" value="imposterBlock" param1="2"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="CanMobsSpawnOn" value="false"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Class" value="PlantGrowing"/&gt; 
	&lt;property name="StabilitySupport" value="false"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="MaxDamage" value="5000"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="PlantGrowing.Next" value="AutoMinerFull"/&gt; 
	&lt;property name="PlantGrowing.GrowthRate" value="60"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="PlantGrowing.FertileLevel" value="0"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="PlantGrowing.IsRandom" value="false"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="PlantGrowing.LightLevelGrow" value="0"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="PlantGrowing.LightLevelStay" value="0"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="PlantGrowing.GrowIfAnythinOnTop" value="false"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="PlantGrowing.IsGrowOnTopEnabled" value="false"/&gt;
	 &lt;drop event="Fall" name="AutoMinerEmpty" count="1" prob="1"/&gt;
	&lt;property class="RepairItems"&gt;
		&lt;property name="resourceScrapIron" value="10"/&gt;
	&lt;/property&gt;
	&lt;drop event="Destroy" name="AutoMinerEmpty" count="1" /&gt;
	&lt;property name="FilterTags" value="MC_building,SC_electrical"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="SortOrder1" value="70e3"/&gt;
&lt;/block&gt;

&lt;block name="AutoMinerFull"&gt;
    &lt;property name="CreativeMode" value="Dev"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="DisplayType" value="blockMulti" /&gt;
	&lt;property name="Material" value="Mmetal"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Shape" value="ModelEntity"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Model" value="Entities/Industrial/controlPanelBase_02Prefab"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="CustomIconTint" value="141414"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="TintColor" value="20,20,20"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="UMA.Overlay0Tint" value="20,20,20"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Place" value="TowardsPlacerInverted"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Path" value="solid"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="Class" value="Loot" /&gt;
	&lt;property name="LootList" value="AutoMinerFull" /&gt;
	&lt;property name="ImposterExchange" value="imposterBlock" param1="2"/&gt;
	&lt;drop event="Destroy" name="AutoMinerEmpty" count="1" /&gt;
	&lt;property class="RepairItems"&gt;
		&lt;property name="resourceScrapIron" value="10"/&gt;
	&lt;/property&gt;
	&lt;drop event="Fall" name="scrapMetalPile" count="1" prob="0.75" stick_chance="1"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="FilterTags" value="MC_building,SC_electrical"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="SortOrder1" value="70e3"/&gt;
	&lt;property name="DowngradeBlock" value="AutoMinerEmpty"/&gt;
&lt;/block&gt;

Capp00 · Jul 25, 2022

Blake_ said:
Hi Capp00! You seem misunderstand the change. Nothing about the drink crafting has changed, except that there are no glass bottles anymore . You craft teas, coffees, carry drinks and buy them and, on -rare occasions- find them on specific loot containers. The dew collector generates the old potable water, you take it and put it in the inventory, and you decide when to drink it. Same with the rest, minus the hindrance of the glass jar.

The dew collector does not , I repeat, does not directly replenish your drink bar. You take the "water unit with the icon of potable water in a jar" and then decide when to use it.

Gotcha gotcha.

I wasn't jumping to conclusions or flying off the handle. Just curious is all. Thanks for the further clarification.

mstdv inc · Jul 25, 2022

meganoth said:
When I played as the farmer in our group in an A19 game last year I put the farm plots in a corner just ~10 meters away from the base. We used that base as a horde base for the first 5 hordes at least and I lost at most 2 plots if any at all.

We often put a farm near our crafting base and compared to the effort some others seem to make into securing their farm our losses are definitely negligible.

And if we dug holes and dropped the plots into those holes there would be even less chance of a loss, you would need to shoot policemen while they are standing on your plots to make that happen.

I used to place everything inside the base, farm plots on separate balconies or on the roof.I am building two or three-storey bases (1st floor for meeting the horde, the second is a garage (sometimes together with a residential area), the third floor is a residential area) and I am not used to going outside the base during crafting or collecting resources from the farm.In my case, the dew collector will be placed either on balconies next to farm plots or on the roof.

zztong · Jul 25, 2022

RipClaw said:
Would also be useful for nomadic players. Instead of packing 20 dew collectors every time a player moves, maybe it would be only 2 or 3.

I was thinking about nomadic play. I enjoy doing that from time to time, even as a no-vehicle backpack only nomad, and play a personal goal of "cross 50 maps until I find the airport where the supply drops originate" kind of game. (Generate a new map for each crossing and move the character file over.) Admittedly this isn't the game TFP envisioned, but I find it fun.

I've tended to carry a cookpot and grill, then boil my water stack up to 10 in the late afternoon along with Bacon and Eggs from hunting and foraging as I go. I'm not really interested in carrying around the Dew Collector, nor do I carry around other workstations.

With this change to water, I can't boil water from rivers, lakes, and swimming pools that I encounter in my travels. Until I get a helmet filter, I'll have to depend on finding murky water in POIs, which is okay in the grand scheme of things, though as I've said before... weird. I mean, water in toilets and drain traps would evaporate, water heaters would rust and break, but lakes and streams... well, weird.

If I'm on a server with friends, if I'm being nomadic, I still end up with little way-stations scattered about where I built safe places to AFK and plunk down workstations. I'd put dew collectors at those way-stations.

For a regular game, I'll add Dew Collection to my farming. I'm puzzled why folks insist on putting farms on roofs. (It's not like The Sims where Zombies attack farms.) Roofs are convenient, sure, but farms work fine on the ground too.

(Oh right, the forum merges posts... Edited to fix the presentation.)

For cabinets (and any other mundane loot container) ... cans were a source of scrap iron. Perhaps you'll put iron on the list of loot, to simulate finding misc cooking utensils. Or, maybe you'd consider adding a number of household items that only exist only to be scrapped or smelted, kind of like some of the brass items.

meganoth · Jul 25, 2022

mstdv inc said:
I used to place everything inside the base, farm plots on separate balconies or on the roof.I am building two or three-storey bases (1st floor for meeting the horde, the second is a garage (sometimes together with a residential area), the third floor is a residential area) and I am not used to going outside the base during crafting or collecting resources from the farm.In my case, the dew collector will be placed either on balconies next to farm plots or on the roof.

My comment was for people who were complaining about not having the space on their POIs-converted-to-bases.

You don't sound like you have a space problem at all. If you have, consider building a fourth floor.

RipClaw · Jul 25, 2022

zztong said:
For a regular game, I'll add Dew Collection to my farming. I'm puzzled why folks insist on putting farms on roofs. (It's not like The Sims where Zombies attack farms.) Roofs are convenient, sure, but farms work fine on the ground too.

It's been a while, but there was the idea that zombies should be able to trample the plants and that you have to protect your garden. Maybe the players think that this has been implemented.

BFT2020 · Jul 25, 2022

RipClaw said:
A mod to create a dew collector should not be that hard to make. You just have to create a block that uses the game mechanics of the plants. The auto miner in the Apocalypse Now mod and the oil pumps in the Warzuk mod both work on this principle. The autominer uses a existing model and treat it like a plant. After a certain time the block is replaced with another block and in the inventory are the ressources.

True, but I would also consider the value of doing it on my own. I know that the Devs have created one for A21 so it is coming down the road. Would it be worth the effort for me to mod it into my current mod just to try out?

And to be perfectly honest, I want to try to see how hard it would be to survive using A20 water drops already in the game. Can I survive if I remove empty jars from the game and only get by with traders, vending machines, and what I can loot out in the world? We know other changes related to water are coming (based on the comments already), but what would happen if I just add the no jars today with how I am playing the game today?

Jost Amman · Jul 25, 2022

Guppycur said:
Some of us don't even use traders. So no.

So basically you're saying that first you put on yourself a handicap or a self-imposed rule, and then ask the devs why is the game not balanced to your way of playing the game... yeah, I can see how that'd @%$# you off.

zztong · Jul 25, 2022

Roland said:
This is the crux of your dilemma right here and the key to your solution is modding. If you want to play in a way that completely outside the scope of the basic game then you are obviously going to have to change some things about the basic game.

Agreed, though I would probably just top off my murky water stack at 10 (via dm/cm commands) when I visited a lake or river.

But I was responding to a post about Nomadic play where another player was discussing the hit to their inventory if they wanted to carry around Dew Collectors. Part of the fun with Nomadic play (even if you don't backpack from map to map) is a more constrained inventory.

Towards that end, and a positive of the change, Nomads won't have an inventory slot taken up by empty water jars.

Guppycur · Jul 25, 2022

Jost Amman said:
So basically you're saying that first you put on yourself a handicap or a self-imposed rule, and then ask the devs why is the game not balanced to your way of playing the game... yeah, I can see how that'd @%$# you off.

No, it's not a self imposed rule, it's just something I don't enjoy doing.

I also don't jump off of roofs and go about my day with a broken leg either.

I also haven't brought up balance.

...but nice try. Keep at it, you may get it one day.

Fanatical_Meat · Jul 25, 2022

Gideon said:
It is interesting to me that over the span of this game's development it has drifted farther and farther from "realistic" toward "arcade". I'm referring to things like no magically appearing and disappearing drink containers, etc.

If that's good or bad, I'm not sure. It definitely has changed how the game feels for me. However, I'm one of those odd balls that uses mods in Fallout games to make them a bit more "realistic" along the lines of survival and combat.

Perhaps we can do away with food and water requirements? This isn't a bad thing, per se, though it heavily changes the feel of the game. They aren't required in some games with survival aspects, like Valheim. They are certainly useful in those games, but not required.

It would certainly help the evolution towards a more "arcade" game play design.

I don’t know man, it would be fine if glass containers were super rare but then we’d all be complaining why we can’t drink from plastic bottles or as we have now why can’t we drink from buckets or stovetop pots and so on. Point is water need has been way too easy to fulfill may as well do something different to at minimum extend the time water is rare longer.

Also as previously stated water works as gas does and always has worked. There is a certain amount of fuel and that’s it there are no containers.

@faatal @schwanz9000 I sort of remember @madmole saying he wants to bring back the old school “Horde Mode” of have/build a base, few minutes to go out and loot them a nightly horde. Basically a game mode mirroring much earlier Alphas. Any update on that?

Guppycur · Jul 25, 2022

Fanatical_Meat said:
I don’t know man, it would be fine if glass containers were super rare but then we’d all be complaining why we can’t drink from plastic bottles or as we have now why can’t we drink from buckets or stovetop pots and so on. Point is water need has been way too easy to fulfill may as well do something different to at minimum extend the time water is rare longer.

Also as previously stated water works as gas does and always has worked. There is a certain amount of fuel and that’s it there are no containers.

I don't think there's an argument that water needed to be harder, the consternation seems to be about the methodology they used. The dew collector is a great addition, but the "balance" (there you go jost) could have been something different than weirdly removing jars.

Mind you, since schwanz said they're not gonna remove the xml property, I don't give a poop. But that's what the arguments seem to be.

Roland · Jul 25, 2022

Speedworx said:
This is purely making a change to make a change.

Ive already broken down why the empty jars were removed and how it changes the game and why having an infinitely refillable container is a bad idea—several times. Go back and read so you can understand why the change was made. No change is made simply to make a change. That isn’t how game design works. These changes were made after team meetings in which the ramifications were discussed and then tested. When it comes out in experimental it will be further tested by the overall community. I know some people won’t like it but I’m pretty confident most will enjoy the change and appreciate having a new type of workstation to craft and a new type of farm to create—all while making the game more consistent with itself.

Speedworx said:
People who play the game wouldn't ask for this.

I’d love to hear an explanation of why this is seen by some as the best way to design a game. Really.

For this game the design comes from the proven professional developers and adjustments to that design comes from player feedback after they’ve had a chance to play it.

I occasionally read people who criticize a change on the basis that nobody asked for it as if that is all the reason needed for why the change shouldn’t have happened. Others seem to want the devs to poll the players before they make a design decision in order to get the okay to proceed. Say what?!?

Speedworx said:
Have some sort of end game, as there is little reason to play beyond about day 70.

That will come when post release updates come. The objective now is to polish and refine and finalize everything for what the base game is going to offer that the majority of new players is going to experience. An update that adds content to expand gameplay for Days 50 - 100 would be exactly the type of thing to extend the game once it is finished. You’re asking for version 1.5 while the devs are working on version 1.0. That is the risk of becoming a veteran player while the game is in early access. You play out the whole unfinished base game before it is done and then you have a long wait for them to finish the base game and then start working on extended game updates before you are going to see something new in the end game.

schwanz9000 said:
Where do we get the milk?

They make milk from anything these days. We could have pine cone milk or maple acorn milk, or boar milk, or Arlene milk…. Too far?

Guppycur · Jul 25, 2022

Mama June milk confirmed.

schwanz9000 · Jul 25, 2022

Roland said:
They make milk from anything these days. We could have pine cone milk or maple acorn milk, or boar milk, or Arlene milk…. Too far?

STAHP!!! You're not helping.

Roland · Jul 25, 2022

schwanz9000 said:
STAHP!!! You're not helping.

Sorry but I’m on team Milkshake!

plus it would be hilarious and right in line with Pimp humor for Big Mama to have a 100% chance of having a jar of milk in any loot bag she drops…

Nobody asked for Big Mama to not drop milk!!!

Melange · Jul 25, 2022

Roland said:
They make milk from anything these days. We could have pine cone milk or maple acorn milk, or boar milk, or Arlene milk….

Okey dokey. Those are possibilities for milk I would suppose. However since acorns are the seed of oak trees, not maple trees, we might have to eliminate the maple milk. I'd welcome maple syrup though (stamina booster) as well as a pancake recipe that we can combine it with. Then perhaps combine the pancakes and maple syrup with bacon and eggs to yield a super food item.

However I can't see myself chasing Arlene down the road armed only with an empty bucket

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