PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[RipClaw]

See, you say mid to late game is an issue, which I partially agree with. But then you want this system so that you'll be able to get every magazine/schematic you need even faster by being able to specifically craft the ones you need. Which would mean you wouldn't even have the ongoing hunt for those needed books later into the game. Seems backwards to me. RNG drives the game. While I admit there needs to be more to drive the later part of the game, taking out the loot hunt part of late game is not the answer.

I have seen systems like this in some mods. There you need a special workstation to make the schematics. This workstation can usually only be built very late in the game.

 

[bdubyah]

I have seen systems like this in some mods. There you need a special workstation to make the schematics. This workstation can usually only be built very late in the game.

Haven't played them, so don't know the specifics. But TellyG seemed to say they don't get far into the game without starting over, so if it's too far in before you could unlock the book crafting it wouldn't help them much anyway.

 

[Telly G]

It is sad to say, but in relation to all prior systems, I hope they facilitate a proper workshop integration, and it will be interesting on the zombie front if they open up the ability for players to create zombies on par with the development team so the disjunct in aesthetics isn't too stark. It seems; especially in relation to zombies and vehicles; that mods are the only way forward in really finishing the game the way it should be.

Despite a lack of workshop integration we do have https://7daystodiemods.com/ and many of these are mirrored on NexusMods. I wish 7dtdm had a better means to search through their site cos its kind of archaic. 

 

[Telly G]

Haven't played them, so don't know the specifics. But TellyG seemed to say they don't get far into the game without starting over, so if it's too far in before you could unlock the book crafting it wouldn't help them much anyway.

More that there's a lack of a true mid/late game. I used to go to like day 60+ on a world before either needing or wanting to reset cos versions would update faster back then making it more neccesary. 

Yknow what would be really cool, proper bandit POIs with quests and quest bosses relating to them being necessary to complete the main quest and work your way up to killing the final boss, The Duke of Navesgane. And killing the Duke at his massive casino fortress that is always somewhere on the map would be the game's Ender dragon. 

Killing the Duke would open up say, a deep underground massive labyrinthine late game bunker complex that stretches across the majority of the map with entrances in various places. This bunker has protective ownership by the Duke till his demise, same for his castle, at least until the quest to defeat him is active for the castle.

 

[Jost Amman]

Killing the Duke would open up say, a deep underground massive labyrinthine late game bunker complex that stretches across the majority of the map with entrances in various places. This bunker has protective ownership by the Duke till his demise, same for his castle, at least until the quest to defeat him is active for the castle.

How come all I can hear right now is LAG LAG LAG?  :madgrin:

 

[meganoth]

It is sad to say, but in relation to all prior systems, I hope they facilitate a proper workshop integration, and it will be interesting on the zombie front if they open up the ability for players to create zombies on par with the development team so the disjunct in aesthetics isn't too stark. It seems; especially in relation to zombies and vehicles; that mods are the only way forward in really finishing the game the way it should be.

Finally you found the solution. And the good thing: This solution has been endorsed by the developers for years. You could say it is their exit strategy from developing 7D2D 1.

 

[Telly G]

How come all I can hear right now is LAG LAG LAG?  :madgrin:

Maybe not something so big, but def content only available after when you kill the duke.

 

[Roland]

I find it highly concerning that we are now butchering the skill system and most importantly, the crafting, even further, in a futile attempt to make the game "longer". It is nothing but artificial content creation, and nothing substantial.

This. Exactly this. This is what I've been saying. yet, as you can see by the public responses, there are players who have an almost pathological appreciation of any change and cannot or will not see the bad in it.

1) How do you know the skill and crafting systems have been butchered? 

2) How do you know the attempt to lengthen out the progression is going to be futile by this change?

3) What is the difference between artificial content creation and actual content creation?

4) What do you think would be substantial addition if this change is not considered by you to be substantial?

Here's your chance to refine and expound upon your point of view. It is a very cynical view that you and George share. I think most here are more hopeful and willing to play a change before final judgement is given. But you both seem to know things and I don't want you to feel shut down and silenced. I want you to explain why "butcher" is the best description of what the developers have done and more importantly how you even know.

 

[BFT2020]

This. Exactly this. This is what I've been saying.

Your point is absolutely salient; yet, as you can see by the public responses, there are players who have an almost pathological appreciation of any change and cannot or will not see the bad in it.

This player base is composed of people who act like this is North Korea, or some hideous shadow of 1984, in that no matter the change the developers must be praised for it and any dissent must be quelled.

This game; I repeat, had and has since shed incredible and unique systems within the larger context which distinguished it from many other games and really made it an utter joy to play.

It seems as we near the closure of the game that it's been roughly tied together and not properly concluded.

It is sad to say, but in relation to all prior systems, I hope they facilitate a proper workshop integration, and it will be interesting on the zombie front if they open up the ability for players to create zombies on par with the development team so the disjunct in aesthetics isn't too stark. It seems; especially in relation to zombies and vehicles; that mods are the only way forward in really finishing the game the way it should be.

So basically your opinion is the only opinion that matters and the only one that is right?

Anyone else that has a different opinion that you is OBVIOUSLY brainwashed and wrong, I am so sick of this B.S.

You have an opinion, and a right to that opinion.  However, those of us who are looking forward to that change, that doesn't make us brainwashed or even wrong.  It just means that people have different visions and likes for this game.  So please stop crapping over those that disagree with you.  We are not brainwashed or conditioned to give praise to the developers no matter what they do.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

So basically your opinion is the only opinion that matters and the only one that is right?

Anyone else that has a different opinion that you is OBVIOUSLY brainwashed and wrong, I am so sick of this B.S.

You have an opinion, and a right to that opinion.  However, those of us who are looking forward to that change, that doesn't make us brainwashed or even wrong.  It just means that people have different visions and likes for this game.  So please stop crapping over those that disagree with you.  We are not brainwashed or conditioned to give praise to the developers no matter what they do.

Which part of my post is remotely indicative of this?

I shall address you and Roland in one response. 

First, Roland. I do not wish to have to repeat the cheapened extension but since you appear to have repeatedly missed it, I will. Enormous copies of the same magazine to upgrade from one tier to another. That must be self explanatory enough. And the futility comment? Oh I am certain it will extend the game - an extension which; by the sounds of it; and only my early view based on the informatiom given, will extend the play time by virtue of all its tedious glory.

I; again, have already given my suggestion and opinion in line with other players, of a hybrid system of LBD as well as this learn by looting. Learn by doing as applied to running for the stamina skill, mining for mining skill, and maybe even an application of it on damage and accuracy with weapon skills. Cooking could also increase skills related to food to engage players in making more to get better at it.

Looting could be left to schematics, new weapons and upgrades like mods. That should address both the artificial and genuine distinction, and also your request for my proposal of a substantial addition. 

...well that, and a driveable tractor. I wouldn't say no to that

And @BFT2020 it would be almost insulting; not only to your intelligence, but mine, to engage in your absurd response. If you wish to include yourself among the Devs-never-do-wrong crowd, please yourself. But then it's self application on your part of my criticism. 

 

[Blake_]

Which **** of my post is remotely indicative of this?

I shall address you and your ***** in one response. 

First, ***** ** ****. I do not wish to have to repeat the cheapened extension *** **** **** appear to have repeatedly ***** it, I will. Enormous **** of the **** magazine to ***** from one **** to another. That must be self ******** enough. And the *** comment? Oh I am certain it will extend the game - an extension which; by the sounds of it; and only my early view based on the informatiom given, will extend the play time by virtue of all its tedious glory.

I; again, have already given my ***** and **** in line with other players, of a hybrid system of LBD as well as this learn by ****. Learn by doing as applied to ***** for the stamina skill, **** for ***** skill, and maybe even an application of it on damage and accuracy with **** skills. ****ing could also increase skills related to ***** to engage players in making more to get better at it.

****ing could be left to schematics, new weapons and upgrades like mods. That should address both the artificial and genuine distinction, and also your request for my proposal of a substantial addition. 

...well that, and a driveable tractor. I wouldn't say no to that

And @BFT2020 it would be almost insulting; not only to your intelligence, but mine, to engage in your absurd response. If you wish to include yourself among the Devs-never-do-wrong crowd, please yourself. But then it's self application on your part of my criticism. 

I couldn't resist, I like the tone. When are we going to break into song? 

Speeches are only for the ones who create them, and can be interpreted in many a way. It will not change the fact that, in the end, a content creator will create a product reflecting his/her own design. There are ways to sway them, if you make a logical argument, but I believe in this case the design is quite polished and it would be a bit of a waste going back. There seems to be a lot of emotion here, and that's ok, maybe there is something useful in this videogame industry you can try. I look forward to playing a game created by your vision.

 

[Roland]

1) How do you know the skill and crafting systems have been butchered? 

Enormous copies of the same magazine to upgrade from one tier to another. That must be self explanatory enough.

So...you don't really know. Gotcha.

2) How do you know the attempt to lengthen out the progression is going to be futile by this change?

Oh I am certain it will extend the game

So....you changed your answer on this one. Great.

3) What is the difference between artificial content creation and actual content creation?

A hybrid system of LBD as well as this learn by looting. That should address both the artificial and genuine distinction

So just your own suggestion of the way you would like to see is your answer to the difference between artificial content creation and actual content creation? So, basically, whatever the devs do that you personally don't approve of is in the category of artificial content but whatever is added that you like is actual content? Cool.

4) What do you think would be substantial addition if this change is not considered by you to be substantial?

and also your request for my proposal of a substantial addition.

So LBD. Nothing counts and nothing is good until LBD comes back. Check.

It's time to finish up the five phases of mourning for LBD. It's not coming back.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

So...you don't really know. Gotcha.

So....you changed your answer on this one. Great.

So just your own suggestion of the way you would like to see is your answer to the difference between artificial content creation and actual content creation? So, basically, whatever the devs do that you personally don't approve of is in the category of artificial content but whatever is added that you like is actual content? Cool.

So LBD. Nothing counts and nothing is good until LBD comes back. Check.

It's time to finish up the five phases of mourning for LBD. It's not coming back.

Misrepresentative troll. Good job

 

[Roland]

Misrepresentative troll. Good job

I wasn't trolling. I'm genuinely disappointed that you didn't directly answer the questions. You claimed that you agreed 100% that the new system would be a futile attempt to lengthen the game. Then when I asked you to explain why you believe it to be futile, you instead changed your claim completely to the opposite as well as adding that it would be a boring grindfest. When I asked you to explain why the new system is not substantive you didn't explain why, instead you just said that if TFP added LBD into the mix then it would become substantive. And of course, the main question that was part of all four being "How do you know?" which you ignored altogether and wouldn't answer.

Personally, at this point, I think you are the one trolling. LBD is so far beyond the point of no return that continually bringing it up again and again must be a trolling post at this point. I agree that fighting for what you want when there is still a chance to change minds is good but when A18 arrived and it was clear TFP wasn't bringing LBD back despite all the posts and (yes) petitions, and emails--that should really have been the end of it. But we still had those who wouldn't give up even when A19 showed up and there was no LBD and then again when A20 showed up and no LBD and now A21 is introducing a new development iteration of crafting and learning and LBD is again absent from it and you are still aggressively pushing LBD. 

There is not going to be a learn by looting/learn by doing hybrid system. TFP-- namely the founders Rick and Joel, are categorically against reintroducing LBD into the game, especially at this point when they wish to finish things up. Its over. Its time to graciously concede the abandonment of LBD.

Something else that people should understand about both Rick and Joel is that they enjoy exploring and scavenging. Finding loot and overcoming the zombies that are guarding that loot is a very important aspect of the game to them. It is more important to them than crafting. They see crafting as only one of a few avenues by which to acquire loot. That is going to be disappointing to people who like to play the game by mostly crafting everything they acquire. But it is important to understand the preferences of the developers if you are going to understand where the game is going. It is no accident that crafting is now a function of.....exploring and finding the needed information (i.e. looting). 

 

[Blake_]

LBD could've been good, if there was limited logarithmic-based progression to what the player can and cannot use to improve X skills.

It's quite a bit of balance, and results in a more organic way to play the game. Skills can even have amazing superhuman bonuses when reaching X level.

But the benefits end there. Perks allow for way crazier variation but their context is waay wider, so you can put them wherever you like, and they'll still do the same. The problem is that they are not extremely organic and need to be gated in order to make even a remote bit of sense. It's a compromise that's not really a compromise, because thanks to the perk code you can make books! , that can make you do even more crazy things! , and therefore one system is not really superior to another. 

They also prevent grinding in any natural way possible, but grinders are still going to drink quests for breakfast , regardless of the system. ANd that's ok, because they are fun (if a bit repetitive until the 7dtd team gives them some love).

And now we have magazines, that give us a LBL system that scratches a bit of an itch, which is never a bad thing.

 

[Roland]

The problem is that they are not extremely organic and need to be gated in order to make even a remote bit of sense. It's a compromise that's not really a compromise, because thanks to the perk code you can make books! , that can make you do even more crazy things! , and therefore one system is not really superior to another.

Perks can be organic if you wish to play the game organically. It is simply a choice of forgoing efficiency and optimizing in order to progress as quickly as possible and instead choosing to play the game in a natural way that mirrors as closely as possible a reasonably realistic approach. So far TFP has not put restrictions in place to stop people from min/maxing if they want to. But there is also nothing in the code that forces players to go that route. I tried a playthrough where I only spent skill points in perks that were related to the actions I was taking. So until I spent time mining I did not spend points in mining and while I was killing zombies I spent those points on improving my weapon of choice. It was slow going and definitely not what I would recommend as the default way to make people play. But it was definitely more organic.

I absolutely agree that none of these systems are superior or inferior to each other. We, as gamers, simply prefer one over the other or feel in the mood to experience one over the other. 

 

[Jost Amman]

You're all wrong! Whatever TFP chooses as a system is THE BEST!!!  :first:

Spoiler

@TheFunPimpsPayrollOffice: I didn't receive my check this month! Please hurry!  :suspicious:

 

[meganoth]

You're all wrong! Whatever TFP chooses as a system is THE BEST!  :first:

Spoiler

@TheFunPimpsPayrollOffice: I didn't receive my check this month! Please hurry!  :suspicious:

Spoiler

Your endorsement is missing the third exclamation mark required by ISO 9205.

Until this is fixed we will hold unto your paycheck. Furthermore as a service to you we will check if your paycheck is fireproof.

TheFunPimpsPayrollOffice

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

I wasn't trolling. I'm genuinely disappointed that you didn't directly answer the questions. You claimed that you agreed 100% that the new system would be a futile attempt to lengthen the game.

Roland, enough of your BS.

I never agreed to any percentage that the new system is FUTILE in it's 'extension of playtime.' On the contrary my criticism isn't whether it will or won't, but that it will in a way which I deem to be lazy.

That is not based on my opinion which I just pulled out of my rear end. It's an opinion informed by comparative analysis and reasoning against systems that TFP themselves created, implemented, then removed.

In summary, my opinion is that the new system appears to me to be a cheap way to extend the play time,  Now either I've previously misspoken; and for that; if I have, then I will openly admit I was wrong to do so. And if I'm not, you should acknowledge your misrepresentation.

I have already explained sufficiently why I hold the opinion I do and this conversation is one which has reached the level of futility, and I am no longer interested in this discussion.

 

[Roland]

Well...I will just report to interested readers that there has been a lot of discussion and thought and effort that has gone into this new change as well as a lot of internal playtesting and discussion based on that playtesting. My opinion is based on actual experience and a witnessing of the process the team has gone through to reach the current iteration and while it may not end up being everyone's cup of tea, there is conclusively nothing lazy or cheap about what they are doing.

The change that has been described for A21 is not just an isolated change based upon a whim. It is the culmination of all the changes that have been made in the past. The developers design iteratively with each successive change being built upon by what has happened previously.