PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[BFT2020]

Which part of my post is remotely indicative of this?

I shall address you and Roland in one response. 

First, Roland. I do not wish to have to repeat the cheapened extension but since you appear to have repeatedly missed it, I will. Enormous copies of the same magazine to upgrade from one tier to another. That must be self explanatory enough. And the futility comment? Oh I am certain it will extend the game - an extension which; by the sounds of it; and only my early view based on the informatiom given, will extend the play time by virtue of all its tedious glory.

I; again, have already given my suggestion and opinion in line with other players, of a hybrid system of LBD as well as this learn by looting. Learn by doing as applied to running for the stamina skill, mining for mining skill, and maybe even an application of it on damage and accuracy with weapon skills. Cooking could also increase skills related to food to engage players in making more to get better at it.

Looting could be left to schematics, new weapons and upgrades like mods. That should address both the artificial and genuine distinction, and also your request for my proposal of a substantial addition. 

...well that, and a driveable tractor. I wouldn't say no to that

And @BFT2020 it would be almost insulting; not only to your intelligence, but mine, to engage in your absurd response. If you wish to include yourself among the Devs-never-do-wrong crowd, please yourself. But then it's self application on your part of my criticism. 

This quote

This player base is composed of people who act like this is North Korea, or some hideous shadow of 1984, in that no matter the change the developers must be praised for it and any dissent must be quelled.

But hey, based on your responses to Roland who is just trying to get you to engage on the discussion, it doesn't matter what anyone says.  I called you out on it, and that was my intent.  Changing the attitude was never my intent as I recognized that people who quickly go that route in discussions rarely ever change.  Nobody has quelled your dissent (or opinion really) about the system. 

And I especially loved your last comment that engaging with you about this would mean that I lack intelligence if was to engage you again, and that I am the one placing myself in the never do bad developers crowd.  Yes, you never called me out as being in that crowd, but that was never your intent.  You just subtly hinted about people who might be supporting this upcoming change, and then when called out for it, imply that it is on them for thinking that.

 

[Jost Amman]

and then when called out for it, imply that it is on them for thinking that.

That reminds me of a discussion I had a few weeks back with someone else on this same forum... guess history does repeat itself, does it?  :classic_wink:

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

This quote

But hey, based on your responses to Roland who is just trying to get you to engage on the discussion, it doesn't matter what anyone says.  I called you out on it, and that was my intent.  Changing the attitude was never my intent as I recognized that people who quickly go that route in discussions rarely ever change.  Nobody has quelled your dissent (or opinion really) about the system. 

And I especially loved your last comment that engaging with you about this would mean that I lack intelligence if was to engage you again, and that I am the one placing myself in the never do bad developers crowd.  Yes, you never called me out as being in that crowd, but that was never your intent.  You just subtly hinted about people who might be supporting this upcoming change, and then when called out for it, imply that it is on them for thinking that.

As I said to Roland I am no longer interested in this discussion. I look forward to hearing the passive aggressive or directly derogatory slant you put on it.

But just before I end this conversation for good, I will leave you with some food for thought, re: my comment on the player base and your insinuation that my 'composed of' relates to every member of the player base:

I am one of those members. Let that sink in.

I won't be replying to more on this topic, if you wish to gratify yourself with the last word or do as I suspect you might (as I stated above), be my guest.

 

[Roland]

Well, in the spirit of this new discussion meta I would just like to say that I think the following things could be great improvements to the survival aspect of the game and I hope that there will at least be an option to enable these things:

1) Permanent item degradation so that eventually a weapon or tool or armor cannot be repaired and you have to craft or find a replacement.

2) Food spoilage

3) Persistant ailments that don't just disappear if you die.

4) Limits on daily quests

5) An option to turn off the newbie protection buff enabled for the first day and night.

Now having made those statements, I am no longer interested in this discussion. Before I end this conversation for good let me just state that if you disagree with me your opinion is BS. I won't reply to any more on this topic so do what you will but remember that it is over for good.

 

[Matt115]

Well, in the spirit of this new discussion meta I would just like to say that I think the following things could be great improvements to the survival aspect of the game and I hope that there will at least be an option to enable these things:

1) Permanent item degradation so that eventually a weapon or tool or armor cannot be repaired and you have to craft or find a replacement.

2) Food spoilage

3) Persistant ailments that don't just disappear if you die.

4) Limits on daily quests

5) An option to turn off the newbie protection buff enabled for the first day and night.

Now having made those statements, I am no longer interested in this discussion. Before I end this conversation for good let me just state that if you disagree with me your opinion is BS. I won't reply to any more on this topic so do what you will but remember that it is over for good.

I was not active for few days, just checking topics and...  i think there is nothing to talk anymore. Every "Longer" topic like Zombie kids, food spoilage , quests etc was so many times that there is nothing new to say about that. Bugs topics are just... bugs nothing to say. LBL was interesting topic but... everything was said about that too. So there is nothing new so....  this is so "dead season". Even i , i don't see even sense about talking about potential another TFP game etc.  This is soo frustrating. Just uhh... nothing new about 7dtd, no more room in hell 2 and sengoku dynasty.  I feel so empty now.... like skeleton

 

[Jost Amman]

I was not active for few days, just checking topics and...  i think there is nothing to talk anymore. Every "Longer" topic like Zombie kids, food spoilage , quests etc was so many times that there is nothing new to say about that. Bugs topics are just... bugs nothing to say. LBL was interesting topic but... everything was said about that too. So there is nothing new so....  this is so "dead season". Even i , i don't see even sense about talking about potential another TFP game etc.  This is soo frustrating. Just uhh... nothing new about 7dtd, no more room in hell 2 and sengoku dynasty.  I feel so empty now.... like skeleton

Wait. You didn't hear the BIG news?  :suspicious:

 

[Blake_]

Snip!

Well, I LOVE the perk system ever since Fallout 3 came out. It's efficient, tidy, smart in its design and possibilities, easy to tune from a dev's perspective compared to many other systems and, the most important thing, it adapts itself to any player, and that's why Skyrim started to have something very similar (while also using LBD which was not very well planned and quite unbalanced as always ).

The organic nature of a good LBD system is inherent, you needn't force it upon yourself as you explained with your 7dtd rolplaying.

But I havent seen it yet, a perfectly functional LBD without balance exploits that is. Why? Because it is quite difficult to do. But not impossible:

 For example, let's create a Heavy armour skill, from 1 to 100. The mistake that every designer does is improving it when something hits you , being a cactus, an enemy or a fall, but the reality is that it should only go up by getting hit by an enemy. But it HAS to stop increasing after a bit vs the same enemy, very much like the LBL system that madmole just designed (in the way that it has ranges).

So a normal Zd would only get you to 25 Heavy armour tops and from there you can get hit forever and you would only die in pain and no gain. 

And it ALSO has to be damage-based but only until 25 points for that normal zd. So then, the player needs to seek stronger enemies, the ones that get you to 50 with x damage. And then the ones that get you to 75 and so on.

So it is such a pain to create so many checks and code for everything involved that a perk system is way cleaner.

Equal you say? No, if we really think about it, they are not. The ultimate system has to be simple and fun, and LBD is definitely not performant nor fun to make , just to play, and even then it's just arguably equal to the perk system in raw results and end-game gameplay with a slighty better edge/feel in "gameplay experience" in early and mid game, which still gets destroyed by perfomance by having to check several skills simultaneouly in many a situation (for example, in combat you are sending checks for heavy armour, light armour, weapon of choice, accuracy, block skill, allowed skill experience for that entity hitting you , etc,etc.). If we really want organic, then we might want to eat broccoli.

 

[Roland]

Equal you say?

No. I don't believe I did. I said that one was not necessarily a more superior design than the other-- meaning they are both good designs and I like both depending on how I feel. I very much see the appeal and fun of the LBD model. But shopping for perk points is also a ton of fun. They are not equal and depending on the preferences of the player one will seem better than the other to them. That was my point. The "better" system is completely dependent upon the preferences of the player.

 

[meganoth]

But I havent seen it yet, a perfectly functional LBD without balance exploits that is. Why? Because it is quite difficult to do. But not impossible:

 For example, let's create a Heavy armour skill, from 1 to 100. The mistake that every designer does is improving it when something hits you , being a cactus, an enemy or a fall, but the reality is that it should only go up by getting hit by an enemy. But it HAS to stop increasing after a bit vs the same enemy, very much like the LBL system that madmole just designed (in the way that it has ranges).

I don't think this is perfect either. A player who is good at killing zombies before they hit him and good at avoiding hits is penalized for playing well. If he lets himself be hit itentionally to get that skill up that isn't organic gameplay anymore but meta-gaming for improvement.

IMO the LBD way for armor would either give improvement for any close range fight with a zombie no matter the results or improvement only when you don't get damage in a close range fight.

Well, in the spirit of this new discussion meta I would just like to say that I think the following things could be great improvements to the survival aspect of the game and I hope that there will at least be an option to enable these things:

1) Permanent item degradation so that eventually a weapon or tool or armor cannot be repaired and you have to craft or find a replacement.

2) Food spoilage

3) Persistant ailments that don't just disappear if you die.

4) Limits on daily quests

5) An option to turn off the newbie protection buff enabled for the first day and night.

Now having made those statements, I am no longer interested in this discussion. Before I end this conversation for good let me just state that if you disagree with me your opinion is BS. I won't reply to any more on this topic so do what you will but remember that it is over for good.

If you want to play a nice game with food spoilage I would recommend Excitus Extreme. The mod is a bit hard to find, but it also simulates the toilet break after eating food, and it has very funny zombies.

 

[Jost Amman]

I don't think this is perfect either. A player who is good at killing zombies before they hit him and good at avoiding hits is penalized for playing well. If he lets himself be hit itentionally to get that skill up that isn't organic gameplay anymore but meta-gaming for improvement.

IMO the LBD way for armor would either give improvement for any close range fight with a zombie no matter the results or improvement only when you don't get damage in a close range fight.

The reality though, which makes both you guys "wrong", is that no skill is needed to wear armor.

As long as you button up correctly and don't put an arm where the leg should be, you're set.

I would say that the only factor which could be considered experience with armor, is getting used to it.

The first time I wore a hand-made, true-to-history, chain-mail jacket, I didn't need ANY time at all to get used.

So, basically what I'm saying is they should completely remove certain skills from LBD systems and put the bonuses directly ON the object (in this case, the armor).

 

[BFT2020]

Another issue I find with LBD is any dealing with medical skills.  PZ is a good example.  Either you have to spec into them right away to get a decent level or "cheese" the game to level it up.  The whole point is to avoid getting hit, so you truly don't get the opportunity to level it up.  So you end up doing things like digging the ground with your bare hands or climbing through broken glass windows just to get yourself hurt in a controlled situation.

I prefer the perk type system where I can play the game, and then perk into what I want.  Heck, if I wanted to make it relative to the actions I was doing, I could always just put those perks towards actions I was doing the previous day.

 

[Matt115]

Well, I LOVE the perk system ever since Fallout 3 came out. It's efficient, tidy, smart in its design and possibilities, easy to tune from a dev's perspective compared to many other systems and, the most important thing, it adapts itself to any player, and that's why Skyrim started to have something very similar (while also using LBD which was not very well planned and quite unbalanced as always ).

The organic nature of a good LBD system is inherent, you needn't force it upon yourself as you explained with your 7dtd rolplaying.

But I havent seen it yet, a perfectly functional LBD without balance exploits that is. Why? Because it is quite difficult to do. But not impossible:

 For example, let's create a Heavy armour skill, from 1 to 100. The mistake that every designer does is improving it when something hits you , being a cactus, an enemy or a fall, but the reality is that it should only go up by getting hit by an enemy. But it HAS to stop increasing after a bit vs the same enemy, very much like the LBL system that madmole just designed (in the way that it has ranges).

So a normal Zd would only get you to 25 Heavy armour tops and from there you can get hit forever and you would only die in pain and no gain. 

And it ALSO has to be damage-based but only until 25 points for that normal zd. So then, the player needs to seek stronger enemies, the ones that get you to 50 with x damage. And then the ones that get you to 75 and so on.

So it is such a pain to create so many checks and code for everything involved that a perk system is way cleaner.

Equal you say? No, if we really think about it, they are not. The ultimate system has to be simple and fun, and LBD is definitely not performant nor fun to make , just to play, and even then it's just arguably equal to the perk system in raw results and end-game gameplay with a slighty better edge/feel in "gameplay experience" in early and mid game, which still gets destroyed by perfomance by having to check several skills simultaneouly in many a situation (for example, in combat you are sending checks for heavy armour, light armour, weapon of choice, accuracy, block skill, allowed skill experience for that entity hitting you , etc,etc.). If we really want organic, then we might want to eat broccoli.

Honestly i hate perk system - morrowind system was the best - if you want to be good at something you have to do this a lot + have good tools. your example about armors is bad - just make catergory armor - you want to wear heavier armor? first you have to "train" just by wearing "lighter" armors to be able to wear heavier one. And throw to bin descrease/dmg % - if you have more points in armors you will just lose less stamina during running jumping etc if you learn how to use weapons you can use them longer and for example - faster swing , longer throw more accurate shots or faster reload but dmg is this same.

This would create maybe just 5-6 categories but this would need a lot of weapons, armors tools - it can be done for sure.

I don't think this is perfect either. A player who is good at killing zombies before they hit him and good at avoiding hits is penalized for playing well. If he lets himself be hit itentionally to get that skill up that isn't organic gameplay anymore but meta-gaming for improvement.

IMO the LBD way for armor would either give improvement for any close range fight with a zombie no matter the results or improvement only when you don't get damage in a close range fight.

If you want to play a nice game with food spoilage I would recommend Excitus Extreme. The mod is a bit hard to find, but it also simulates the toilet break after eating food, and it has very funny zombies.

Well that's not connected with " being" good but with zombie types and ammo.  Well - if there would be behemot , something like l4d2 splitter ( rly big lake of acid) ,you would for sure get hit + less ammo mean you have to option - risk take damage during fight in melee or be sneaky.  This would make 7dtd much harder and slower but this could be done

I check this mod and - first looks hm rly cool perks, but i saw then cars and it was meh but maybe more cars variants that better but then i saw broomstick with knifes and flamethrower zombie and i was dissapointed as hell

Another issue I find with LBD is any dealing with medical skills.  PZ is a good example.  Either you have to spec into them right away to get a decent level or "cheese" the game to level it up.  The whole point is to avoid getting hit, so you truly don't get the opportunity to level it up.  So you end up doing things like digging the ground with your bare hands or climbing through broken glass windows just to get yourself hurt in a controlled situation.

I prefer the perk type system where I can play the game, and then perk into what I want.  Heck, if I wanted to make it relative to the actions I was doing, I could always just put those perks towards actions I was doing the previous day.

Well if there would be more enemies who probably hit you for sure you could get medical skills very fast + medical skillis can be put in farming//hunting/medical as 1 category called "survival skills" 

 

[BFT2020]

Well if there would be more enemies who probably hit you for sure you could get medical skills very fast + medical skillis can be put in farming//hunting/medical as 1 category called "survival skills" 

Doesn't that defeat games where the whole purpose is to avoid being hit?  I play games with LBD and I am fine trying to figure out how to advanced my skills.  However, I hate it when it pushes you more to an exploit unless you want those skills to never or hardly ever level up.

There are various leveling mechanisms out there, and they all have their pros and cons.  People might have their preferred method, but they are all legitimate and none of them are wrong.

 

[Gamida]

Doesn't that defeat games where the whole purpose is to avoid being hit?  I play games with LBD and I am fine trying to figure out how to advanced my skills.  However, I hate it when it pushes you more to an exploit unless you want those skills to never or hardly ever level up.

There are various leveling mechanisms out there, and they all have their pros and cons.  People might have their preferred method, but they are all legitimate and none of them are wrong.

I am not a big armour user in this game so not up on it's quirks but I do remember one time players use to just stand on a cactus and increase their armour skills or whatever. Would just stand there with character moaning, heal when health was getting lower...rinse repeat.

 

[meganoth]

Well that's not connected with " being" good but with zombie types and ammo.  Well - if there would be behemot , something like l4d2 splitter ( rly big lake of acid) ,you would for sure get hit + less ammo mean you have to option - risk take damage during fight in melee or be sneaky.  This would make 7dtd much harder and slower but this could be done

I am talking about average gameplay, not some special zombie you encounter once in a while. But no matter the zombie, a good player gets hit less often on average and if it is only because he kills faster.

I check this mod and - first looks hm rly cool perks, but i saw then cars and it was meh but maybe more cars variants that better but then i saw broomstick with knifes and flamethrower zombie and i was dissapointed as hell

I didn't recommend that mod to you. I already knew you would not like it.

 

[Matt115]

Doesn't that defeat games where the whole purpose is to avoid being hit?  I play games with LBD and I am fine trying to figure out how to advanced my skills.  However, I hate it when it pushes you more to an exploit unless you want those skills to never or hardly ever level up.

There are various leveling mechanisms out there, and they all have their pros and cons.  People might have their preferred method, but they are all legitimate and none of them are wrong.

This depend on this how you want to play - if you want be "tank" you will take dmg a lot but you can survive a lot - if you want to play as "stab and run" gun - this mean you have to avoid dmg because you have weak armor.  Well bannerlord have rly goood LBD system - only problem is that some perks can be hard to increase if you don't know how units works ( well bannerlord is sometimes like warhammer 2 - some battles you can easy win automatic while you would loose by yourself and some battles you will lose while you lose automatic option

I am talking about average gameplay, not some special zombie you encounter once in a while. But no matter the zombie, a good player gets hit less often on average and if it is only because he kills faster.

I didn't recommend that mod to you. I already knew you would not like it.

1. Not rly meganoth - this depend on build - if you focus on bow you will get much less hits that fighting enemies using sledgehammer . good player will get hit during fight with wight while avarage player will not if he have even junk MG 

2. Yep  it was just " hm...  spoiled food? maybe this will be more seriouse mod..... nope as always" 

 

[meganoth]

1. Not rly meganoth - this depend on build - if you focus on bow you will get much less hits that fighting enemies using sledgehammer . good player will get hit during fight with wight while avarage player will not if he have even junk MG

I think you missed where I said "MELEE" in my description how to get armor XP.

If someone is using a bow it is not melee and he won't get armor improved. But that is exactly as it should be because when you shoot zombies from afar, why should you improve armor in an LBD system?

 

[Matt115]

I think you missed where I said "MELEE" in my description how to get armor XP.

If someone is using a bow it is not melee and he won't get armor improved. But that is exactly as it should be because when you shoot zombies from afar, why should you improve armor in an LBD system?

my mistake. But still - sledgehammer user will get probably hit fighting with 2 zombie while  knife player not.

Well because you have to fight against bandits  with guns and "range" zombies + POI exploration.  you still impoving armor is important - only diffrence is - which type of armor you should choose depending on your "range weapons" - run and gun - light armor , Shotgun and HG - heavy armor

 

[Blake_]

IMO the LBD way for armor would either give improvement for any close range fight with a zombie no matter the results or improvement only when you don't get damage in a close range fight.

But that's the "evasion" or agility skill. And then what? What about actual armour checks? And block checks for a sweet block skill? And the weapon skill? That is sure to be like I stated for the heavy armour but on reverse, right? We are drowning the player in checks, just like in 1929.

LBD is a huge can of worms. It has a huge variety of solutions, but most have exploits, and grindy ones at that. I firmly believe that LBD is a system that still has to be perfected in the industry, and its details fleshed out. It's not as challenging as building the James Webb Space Telescope, but it very dayum well comes close in work hours to develop without significant flaws.

TFP have some cool math guys that would flesh it out eventually. Gazz, "Kinkymanju", faatal and the drone guy, for example. Plus MM and the rest of the team to make balanced opinions and designing. Pretty good team.

Still, I love the current system, this is all just talk.

 

[Jost Amman]

Gazz, "Kinkymanju", faatal and the drone guy

That made my day...  ound: