PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

@George Gordon Your post was a wonderfully paradoxical blend of uninformed rush to judgment and patient, yet eager, optimism.  I look forward to reading your conclusion after you have played the new 'learn by looting' system.  Please tag me in it so I don't miss it.  

 
I am wondering if TFP's have changed their minds about adding followers to the game.

The last time we talked. Madmole did not like the idea because he didn't think that followers could path there way though player dug mines, POI's and rough terrain. 

However now that I have seen the Drone in action. I could see that pathing is no longer an issue. As the Drone can pass though solid objects and won't get hung up. 

So I was thinking that the bipedal Follower could work now. Maybe make it so the follower could pass though and or over stuff that has got them hung up. Perhaps even adding a quadrupedal like a dog as well. 

These followers would be a good fit and go better with the game imho. 

Keep the Drone, add the followers please. 

 
Uncle Al said:
Interesting we're getting new models that follow the existing armour tiers.  The 'class specific' armours model has obviously had a rethink, as I doubt resources would be spent on an iron armour model if iron armour itself was getting binned next alpha.  

That said, the new iron armour does not look like it's designed to layer with clothing at all.  Was it designed with the proposed 'only four wearable slots' model in mind?
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Why mess with a classic look. I would also not at all be surprised if they port all of the existing armor types over as a starting point for the new system to cover the basics with more specialized outfits rolling out at a later time. 

Makes sense on many levels. The sets are established so having them available would reduce player confusion since most already know what each armor set does. 

They broadly cover the main tiers  of defense too.

 
sillls said:
I am wondering if TFP's have changed their minds about adding followers to the game.

The last time we talked. Madmole did not like the idea because he didn't think that followers could path there way though player dug mines, POI's and rough terrain. 

However now that I have seen the Drone in action. I could see that pathing is no longer an issue. As the Drone can pass though solid objects and won't get hung up. 

So I was thinking that the bipedal Follower could work now. Maybe make it so the follower could pass though and or over stuff that has got them hung up. Perhaps even adding a quadrupedal like a dog as well. 

These followers would be a good fit and go better with the game imho. 

Keep the Drone, add the followers please. 
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TFP won't add followers. What value does it add over the drone?  Is the added complexity worth it while they're trying to sprint towards gold? Probably not.

 
George Gordon said:
Surely, when designing the "Loot to Learn" system, TFP realizes the current state of the abysmally bad loot system where finding Books, and especially certain books, is a task of impossibility?
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They have realized it in regards to the skill magazines which is why the probabilities for the skill magazines are affected by the perks. When you activate a related perk your chances of finding that magazine you would need to complement your perk goes up making it so that it is not an impossibility to finding what you need.

Furthermore, the change is purely for crafting. Many of the things you can craft you can also find in loot or can purchase from the trader. So even if you are unable to craft something until you find enough magazines, you are not completely blocked from those items.

Your concern is understandable but it is based on your experience with A20 and before. Further development of the loot tables and probabilities to support the changes in A21 have taken place that you have not experienced so you should definitely play it before worrying too much.

George Gordon said:
All the changes done so far have been attempts to stretch the games "interesting period", that comes before most players fall into a bottomless pit of boredom, because they have seen everything, and the game wears off.
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I'll just point out that the game's "interesting period" hasn't been finalized yet. It was a mistake for you to accept Alpha 18 or Alpha 19 or Alpha 20 as THE way the game was supposed to play. Those were simply iterations along the path to what will eventually be the final version which may have a longer or shorter "interesting period" than what we have now or in A21. You are playing a game in the midst of development and updates are iterations. You are not playing a finished game and the updates are DLCs.

George Gordon said:
And if everything fails, modding is an option, but a sad option, as it is a sign of the desperation of the players trying to make the game the way it should be.
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Modding is not a sad option. It is an exciting option. Your second mistake, here, is assuming that everyone in the world likes to play the same way you do and so when you use a mod to make the game more enjoyable to you, you think it is making it more enjoyable for everyone. The game is the way it should be for the game designers and plenty of folks will enjoy it the way they make it. If you feel the game should be another way, that is perfectly fine and thank goodness mods are available but that is just for you.

 
jorbascrumps said:
TFP won't add followers. What value does it add over the drone?  Is the added complexity worth it while they're trying to sprint towards gold? Probably not.
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First of all I did not say over the drone. I said keep the Drone but add followers. 

Secondly adding to the complexity is minimal now that they have the script for the Drone. 

Finally will it help it go to Gold? No but neither is adding a Drone. 

 
sillls said:
First of all I did not say over the drone. I said keep the Drone but add followers. 

Secondly adding to the complexity is minimal now that they have the script for the Drone. 

Finally will it help it go to Gold? No but neither is adding a Drone. 
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By "over the drone" I meant what would followers add that the drone doesn't do already? Arguably you would expect a follower to be more useful than a drone, being more than a glorified portable storage chest. If there is no expectation of such then again I ask what is the point? Is there only one follower model with everyone running around with the same one? Are they customizable? Do they wear armour? Have skills?

The complexity is in no way minimal. The animations alone would be a large undertaking. The drone is able to hover along the terrain with no expectations of it looking natural. If a follower were to teleport around like the drone it would be completely immersion breaking and just look broken. There is a certain level of acceptable suspension of disbelief that comes with the drone not being humanoid.

The drone has been in development for, what, at least 2 years now? I'm sure it was a concept living in someone's head before that as well. Now let's say that drone tech can be reused for followers, maybe the timeline is halved? That's pretty generous. I can't see TFP investing a year into something that's not bandits, The Duke, a story, or general polish from here on out. I don't want to sound like a party pooper but I'm fairly certain we can expect to not see any new major features that the devs have not already discussed or promised in the KS goals.

 
jorbascrumps said:
The drone has been in development for, what, at least 2 years now? I'm sure it was a concept living in someone's head before that as well. Now let's say that drone tech can be reused for followers, maybe the timeline is halved?
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Let's be optimistic and speculate that the Drone in 7 Days to Die may lead to development of Followers in the next game.

 
sillls said:
I am wondering if TFP's have changed their minds about adding followers to the game.

The last time we talked. Madmole did not like the idea because he didn't think that followers could path there way though player dug mines, POI's and rough terrain. 

However now that I have seen the Drone in action. I could see that pathing is no longer an issue. As the Drone can pass though solid objects and won't get hung up. 

So I was thinking that the bipedal Follower could work now. Maybe make it so the follower could pass though and or over stuff that has got them hung up. Perhaps even adding a quadrupedal like a dog as well. 

These followers would be a good fit and go better with the game imho. 

Keep the Drone, add the followers please. 
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As I suppose, it's not just about how the dog is (I guess we're not just talking about a follower, but about something specific?) will follow the player though and that too. From the player's point of view, it looks as simple as possible - something like "replace the drone model with a dog model and that's it," but from the developer's point of view, a lot of questions arise at once.
1. where will the dogs live? Will they need to be installed in hundreds of POIs or will they be like wild animals?
2. how to tame a dog? This is the development of new mechanics, for example, feeding, which should not be like "throwing a piece of meat at a dog - he's your friend"
3. How can I limit the player to only one dog?
4. Or can I buy a dog from a trader? Then how will the player "install" it in the world?
5. How will the dog climb ladders, climb out of mines after the player, pass through doors?
6. If the dog lags behind the player, will it magically teleport? Or is it a dog that runs at the speed of a motorcycle?
7. How will the dog react to zombies during stealth?
8. How will the dog need to be watered and fed?
9. Should there be special perks for the dog? Do we need to rebalance perks?
10. How will the dog behave during the blood moon? After all, he has to attack and the zombies have to react to him too?
These are the first questions that come to mind, not to mention models, animations, sounds, changes in AI, and so on. The drone answers (or has already answered) these questions, and the dog can greatly slow down the development. Nevertheless, if suddenly TFP can solve this at a high level, then I will only be happy and enthusiastically clap my hands.

 
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sillls said:
I am wondering if TFP's have changed their minds about adding followers to the game.

The last time we talked. Madmole did not like the idea because he didn't think that followers could path there way though player dug mines, POI's and rough terrain. 

However now that I have seen the Drone in action. I could see that pathing is no longer an issue. As the Drone can pass though solid objects and won't get hung up. 

So I was thinking that the bipedal Follower could work now. Maybe make it so the follower could pass though and or over stuff that has got them hung up. Perhaps even adding a quadrupedal like a dog as well. 

These followers would be a good fit and go better with the game imho. 

Keep the Drone, add the followers please. 
Click to expand...


With bandito AI in A21 I bet that ppl will just base pathing off them for followers than what they currently do with NPCMod and other such things. 

Jost Amman said:
The point is not in the number of slots. The point is, if you can do the same stuff you do now, with less clutter.
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I dont know why 'but they give perks tho' is always the go to response when thats not what people mean with 4 slots is too few.

 
Roland said:
Let's be optimistic and speculate that the Drone in 7 Days to Die may lead to development of Followers in the next game.
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Well I expect limited "escorting" missions, with npcs having some teleporting capabilities if they get stuck for a while. That would count as a " follower" wouldn't it?

 
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