PC After 4000 hours with a11-a16, I won't spend much time in a17x. Here's why... no fun!
- Thread starter Bubbahotetp
- Start date
SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
Then whisper that into the devs ears
The OP has the heart of the problem spelled out gloriously clearly in the following sentiment - which I really hope TFP listens closely to. I hope people repeat it across the boards. It's worded very well:
"You're overthinking everything! Just relax and make it more fun and give freedom rather than thinking that a lot of rules and regulations will add fun because it's an added challenge. No! You don't understand! That's not how fun works! Minecraft is fun. It's a total crap game from a logical standpoint and it looks like sh* - but freedom is fun!"
Difficulty is great, survival is great. But player agency is better all day every day in every game ever. A17 makes me think that either: TFP didn't understand why what they had was good, or they fired their smart people or they hired an MMORPG consultant. The last may work out for them in the long run monetarily by creating something that is more comfortable for luds. . . but man that'd be sad and probably not work out. If I want to level grind and kill zombies, then Dying Light is just waaaay better than this 7D2D.
I'd like to add another criticism onto this thread (since it's the best critique I've read) in a similar vein that the OP may appreciate:
This build asks you to "level up" in order to survive/thrive and offers as the means of doing that the only thing that increases the danger in the game - killing zombies. It's a Catch-22. In order to survive you need to increase the danger. Someone new to game design might think, at first, that this is a good idea, since it forces players to make a difficult choice between leveling and increasing the danger. Maybe it could be if it made any sense at all, or if player progression were more nuanced, or if there were any real options, but as it stands, it instead feels simply pointless. With nothing else substantial available to do, there is no choice but to "level up" - to me this is a gob-smackingly obviously terrible design direction.
"Leveling" and "grinding" are themselves poisonous mechanical concepts in this kind of immersive sandbox game anyway, which makes it hard for me to understand why people are offering them as defenses for this build's regressions. . . Guys - most of the people offering these nuanced critiques of A17 understand basic game mechanics from the 90s. it's 2018. If you think that Archetype RPG squad combat and stat leveling are cutting edge concepts then you could do humanity a solid by thinking more and offering bad advice less.
On the recent subject of upgrading weapons - this is probably pure fantasy but I'd love to see the leveling system done away with completely and have damage be purely mod-based, for example: baseball bats, baseball bats with chains, nails, etc. Bullets overloaded with gunpowder, crossed etc. Additionally skill could go into repairing and maintaining, rather than increasing the "stats" of weapons. I'm not a fan of numbers on guns, it just spanks of being olde hat after playing "Green Hell" and "The Forest". Fantasy for this game - I know.
"You're overthinking everything! Just relax and make it more fun and give freedom rather than thinking that a lot of rules and regulations will add fun because it's an added challenge. No! You don't understand! That's not how fun works! Minecraft is fun. It's a total crap game from a logical standpoint and it looks like sh* - but freedom is fun!"
Difficulty is great, survival is great. But player agency is better all day every day in every game ever. A17 makes me think that either: TFP didn't understand why what they had was good, or they fired their smart people or they hired an MMORPG consultant. The last may work out for them in the long run monetarily by creating something that is more comfortable for luds. . . but man that'd be sad and probably not work out. If I want to level grind and kill zombies, then Dying Light is just waaaay better than this 7D2D.
I'd like to add another criticism onto this thread (since it's the best critique I've read) in a similar vein that the OP may appreciate:
This build asks you to "level up" in order to survive/thrive and offers as the means of doing that the only thing that increases the danger in the game - killing zombies. It's a Catch-22. In order to survive you need to increase the danger. Someone new to game design might think, at first, that this is a good idea, since it forces players to make a difficult choice between leveling and increasing the danger. Maybe it could be if it made any sense at all, or if player progression were more nuanced, or if there were any real options, but as it stands, it instead feels simply pointless. With nothing else substantial available to do, there is no choice but to "level up" - to me this is a gob-smackingly obviously terrible design direction.
"Leveling" and "grinding" are themselves poisonous mechanical concepts in this kind of immersive sandbox game anyway, which makes it hard for me to understand why people are offering them as defenses for this build's regressions. . . Guys - most of the people offering these nuanced critiques of A17 understand basic game mechanics from the 90s. it's 2018. If you think that Archetype RPG squad combat and stat leveling are cutting edge concepts then you could do humanity a solid by thinking more and offering bad advice less.
On the recent subject of upgrading weapons - this is probably pure fantasy but I'd love to see the leveling system done away with completely and have damage be purely mod-based, for example: baseball bats, baseball bats with chains, nails, etc. Bullets overloaded with gunpowder, crossed etc. Additionally skill could go into repairing and maintaining, rather than increasing the "stats" of weapons. I'm not a fan of numbers on guns, it just spanks of being olde hat after playing "Green Hell" and "The Forest". Fantasy for this game - I know.
OzHawkeye
Community Moderator
Really? As if the evidence in this very forum room didn't speak to how wrong that was.
I, for one, am keen to see a vigorous debate go on about the merits or otherwise of Alpha 17 specifically, and the game generally.
I, for one, make no apologies whatsoever for enforcing moderation of abusive posts, even to the point of perma-banning some people, which I've done.
Negative feedback doesn't mean having to hurl insults at the Devs (or us Moderators), and it's a shame that there is such a tendency on some small segment of people to do that, because negative feedback is particularly valuable, and indeed, is much more valuable than positive feedback.
Petite
Refugee
I 100% agree with you, I tried the game for 2 hours max and I was like OMFG no, no, no back to a16 with Starvation. I hate A17 so my players and nothing will ever make it change my opinion. I have to say to everybody that say omg its the best thing ever, GO TRY Starvation for fun. Its 110% better and nicer than a17 and what 7 days to die should have been since the start. Waiting more than a year for what I saw is like seriously? Thats just my opinion and very disappointed, nobody has to agree with that.
OzHawkeye
Community Moderator
You're right, you replied to Kosmic Kerman, not Roland. So, on that score, I'm wrong, and apologise accordingly.
I still think your statement was completely inaccurate though, so I stand by that. There's a TONNE of negative posts and threads about A17 in this forum room, so if negative opinion is being suppressed, it's being suppressed very poorly indeed.
Anytime someone has a different opinion then your self. just call them entitled. it's the trump of 2018. this update has added a bunch of broken stuff that might be good when it's fixed and it's taken away so much!!! TFP wants this to be a roller coaster ride but most of us wanted a sandbox. we didn't want to play it the way TFP wants us to play it. and alpha after alpha they have taken away the ways we enjoy to play this game. If you don't like our opinion that doesn't make us entitled. that just means you enjoy playing 7days the way tfp wants you to play it. but you don't seem to be in the majority anymore.
Poojam
Refugee
4000 hours??? thats time to consider getting a life now bud..
I didn't say suppressed. Those are your words.
I would say that you and Roland are on the same bandwagon as these four examples, which have been taken from this thread. Not sure if you're as brazen, but Roland tried to be with statistics and had to retract his argument. Understand the combativeness yet? It goes both ways.
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n2n1
Survivor
Oh no, don't worry - that doesn't offend me at all.
Of course i know that we are in the minority, and the developers make the game for the mass consumer.
Now the game is what most want mass-players (...like consoles).
I just wanted to support the man with his opinion. His opinion - individually.
...although...probably not....if you've noticed....
PS: I like the technical stuff of A17. These innovations may really improve the game later.
Now it's just a... "preform". It's temporary, and it was meant to be.
But the game mechanics since A13 - this is complete crap.
(yes, i understand everything about "the desire of the vast majority of people."
But, i suspect that, however, should not be so what there is now. And so, people express such discontent.
Everything can be corrected after, but the general direction is wrong.)
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I see that some people are just going with the whole "dont worry we can mod that out" approach, and that is reasonable, but it is also a bit backwards compared to how mods were normally implemented to improve the game experience.
Let me explain what i mean by that.
For alpha 16 we added mods that expanded the endgame, quality of life mods, or just mods we thought would be fun for the players while still being balanced. We more or less added things onto a flawed but solid product to make it more interesting and enjoyable.
But for this alpha we might have to start working on modding out some of the new game mechanics, instead of adding things to an already strong gameplay experience, and that feels a bit counter-intuitive.
Let me explain what i mean by that.
For alpha 16 we added mods that expanded the endgame, quality of life mods, or just mods we thought would be fun for the players while still being balanced. We more or less added things onto a flawed but solid product to make it more interesting and enjoyable.
But for this alpha we might have to start working on modding out some of the new game mechanics, instead of adding things to an already strong gameplay experience, and that feels a bit counter-intuitive.
LuckyStar
Refugee
You argument lacks validity as this is A17e ... the e being experimental.
This isn't an actual A17 release.
So... yeah.... lots of Modding is going to happen right now to make the game playable in players' eyes.
So what?
When a stable version of A17 comes out then we can discuss the "Mod it out" comments.
I'm guessing, however, that a lot of balancing issues will have been resolved by then and many other changes.
Sorry but.... Modding seems to be the only working option available to players at the moment.
Nothing wrong with that.
First of all, i said "we might have to start working on modding out some of the new game mechanics" emphasis on "might"
Second of all its not an argument, its just me voicing my opinion, also i am trying to explain that i would like to see the changes i want for the game to start at the developer level instead of having to leave it to the modders.
Also what is your point? The first part of your post seems to dismiss the fact that modders are already starting to see what they can and cant do because its still in an experimental phase, but you end your post by saying that modding is the only working option available at the moment.