PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

My biggest complaint about the Int tree is obtaining the stun baton.  Right now in Alpha, I can be very unlucky and not get it for a long time.  That is why I am excited to see A20 with the pipe weapons and the pipe baton.
My complaint is that there's only one tier of melee weapon in the Int tree, and it's the middle one so it doesn't benefit you in neither early game nor late game (and, honestly, I usually skip mid-tier weapons and tools since they can't compete against lower tiers of higher quality or high tiers). It also has a limited set of mods available, but so do other melee weapons. As far as DPS goes, it isn't the worst and it's one of the only two melee weapons with AoE and when you combine it with the Repulsor Mod it has unmatched area control. I do wish it was slightly faster, though, to be more effective in POI clearing.

People usually compare Perception, Agility and Intellect melee weapons vs Strength and Fortitude melee weapons and come to the conclusion they are underpowered. I'd argue STR and FOR melee weapons are overpowered, and at least for strength yeah it makes sense they do the most damage. The melee weapon of other attributes have non-damage offsetting benefits. Spears can attack outside zombie's range and can even be used as a ranged weapon. Blades can attack then move away and let the zombie die by itself (except bleeding causes rage too often, negating the slow down debuff). Intellect has crowd control. If these benefits do not interest you, then they are not for you. Clubs rely on killing fast. Sledgehammers have some added advantages offset by its slow speed.

Which is not to say they are BALANCED. Knuckles have as much DPS as Clubs and some seriously unbalanced perks, such as high chance of knocking down enemies and healing up to 130 points per minute. Batter Up completion bonus makes a joke of every other melee weapon but knuckles (which doesn't need stamina regen). The perk for both get extra effects at levels 3, 4 and 5 (Batter Up 5 extra effect is on par with Spear Hunter's completion bonus!). So it's much more STR and FOR being OP than all others being underpowered.

For curiosity, here's a DPS table for 19.5:

Code:
meleeHandPlayer              6.67
Flashlight                   7.80
Stone Shovel                 8.00
Torch                        8.50
Stone Spear                  9.44
Iron Shovel                  9.67
Bone Knife                  10.20
Knuckle Wraps               10.33
Stone Axe                   10.50
meleeToolFarmT1IronHoe      10.78
Iron Spear                  11.37
Iron Pickaxe                12.13
Hunting Knife               12.20
meleeWpnBatonT1JunkBaton    12.60
Plasma Baton                12.60
Stun Baton                  12.60
Wooden Club                 12.65
Candy Cane Knife            13.20
Impact Driver               13.75
Ratchet                     13.75
Wrench                      13.75
Claw Hammer                 14.00
Taza's Stone Axe            14.00
Steel Shovel                14.50
Stone Sledgehammer          14.58
Baseball Bat                15.08
Iron Fireaxe                15.10
Iron Knuckles               15.17
Candy Cane Club             16.64
Steel Spear                 17.05
Iron Sledgehammer           17.45
Machete                     18.15
Steel Pickaxe               21.27
Steel Axe                   22.64
Steel Knuckles              22.67
Steel Club                  22.71
Steel Sledgehammer          26.18
Dev: Hammer Of God        5833.33
Dev: Super Wrench         8333.33


This table is computed from the configuration files for items (Data\Config\items.xml) by multiplying entity damage by attacks per minute, then dividing by 60. They are base values which means quality 1, no random stats, no mods, no attributes or perks or books. Numbers are being rounded to two decimal cases, and sorted from lowest to highest DPS. For weapons without localization the internal name was used. Note that there are things in the configuration file which are only available through the creative menu or even not at all.

 
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On a side side note, thinking about unbalanced weapons reminded me of one very weird factoid I came upon.  Shotgun shells have penetration count 2. Enforcer (magnum) completion gives both normal and HP magnum bullets penetration count 2. Pistol Pete completion makes 9mm ignore armor at point blank range. But 7.62mm normal ammo has no advantage against armor and no penetration, with even 7.62mm AP needing Penetrator 3 to get to penetration count 2. So 7d2d is basically going for the reverse of real life when it comes to ammunition properties...

 
Matt115 said:
Btw any news about  ambient?  there will some creepy stuff similar to A11 like wispers , screams ,  random shots or  more "calm" like : more footsteps types , wind etc ?


Came up earlier. Audio is due for an update but not sure if that was for A20.

 
?

These do not exist in unmodded 7 Days to Die. You've invalidated your point.


They are in the configuration files, but not available in-game.  For example, the plasma baton:
 

Code:
<item name="meleeWpnBatonT3PlasmaBaton">

        <property name="CreativeMode" value="Test"/>
 
Regarding the Intellect build, just asking out of curiosity, has anyone tried to set up mini kill stations within tougher POI's to fall back to? (All you would need to bring along with you is some gas, a generator bank, some engines, a wire tool, a turret or two, and some ammo to fill them.)

You can not simply just compare Weapon A to Weapon B.  That is not how this is game was designed.  You have to understand how the setup you have chosen should be played effectively.  How you play a pure Strength build is different from how you would play a pure Agility build vs how you would play a pure Int build.  When I max my perks into strength build, I know I can stand toe to toe with zombies (Heavy armor, Club or Sledge, Shotgun) and tear them apart at close range.  When I spec into the agility build, I am all about mobility and getting in an initial sneak attack (Light armor, blades, archery, gunslinger, hidden strike, flurry of blows).  When I play Int, it is all about making use of my turrets with my baton as my backup should things get too hairy.

In all of these cases though, I am always using weapons outside of my primary builds (including sniper rifles and assault rifles - nothing is preventing me in my current Agility playthrough of using the sniper rifle, the shotgun, assault rifles, or turrets).  Heck, the last time I played Int as my primary build, I was using a compound bow to get sneak shots in when clearing out POIs even though I didn't put one point into the archery perk tree.

If you want to limit your weapons based on the tree you picked, that is your choice.  The game is not pushing you to do that and more power to you.  But you cannot claim that the game is unbalanced because you made those choices.  I have not seen any comments from TFP staff that should you perk into strength, you are not allowed to use pistols or assault rifles.  The same thing applies to Int builds.

My biggest complaint about the Int tree is obtaining the stun baton.  Right now in Alpha, I can be very unlucky and not get it for a long time.  That is why I am excited to see A20 with the pipe weapons and the pipe baton.


So you've obviously played an Intellect build before. Would you mind sharing some screenshots (or with just basic text) displaying the perks you personally selected? If anyone is still cautiously interested in trying said build (like yours truly), they could use it as a basic guide. :)  Ex. When you take perk A, when you take perk B, etc.

 
has anyone tried to set up mini kill stations within tougher POI's to fall back to? (All you would need to bring along with you is some gas, a generator bank, some engines, a wire tool, a turret or two, and some ammo to fill them.)
Being as once they're placed outside of a land claimed area they cannot be picked up (so the only thing you get to hold onto is any ammunition left over, the engines and the wire tool), that is a pretty large investment in time and supplies (even with the crafting material and times bonuses that higher level Int perks get) for something that you're effectively just going to throw away. Multiply that over several POIs and several resets of the same POI, compare that to what you can expect to pull out of the poi's, and compare that to what you need resource wise to maintain your horde base and main base if separate. Also isn't exactly a negligible allocation of the limited storage space the player has.

 
Being as once they're placed outside of a land claimed area they cannot be picked up (so the only thing you get to hold onto is any ammunition left over, the engines and the wire tool), that is a pretty large investment in time and supplies (even with the crafting material and times bonuses that higher level Int perks get) for something that you're effectively just going to throw away. Multiply that over several POIs and several resets of the same POI, compare that to what you can expect to pull out of the poi's, and compare that to what you need resource wise to maintain your horde base and main base if separate. Also isn't exactly a negligible allocation of the limited storage space the player has.


Then just carry a land claim block with you?

The real cons are, as you've mentioned, the time invested in setting up and then picking back up this hypothetical "kill kit" as well as the inventory space it takes up. But who knows? It might save your rear end a couple of times. I've never attempted an Intellect build (waiting for A20 experimental for that), so I'm completely new on the subject. I'm just spitballing really.

 
They are in the configuration files, but not available in-game.  For example, the plasma baton:
 

<item name="meleeWpnBatonT3PlasmaBaton">

<property name="CreativeMode" value="Test"/>

So it effectively still doesn't exist outside of mods. Have you looked at the values more recently?

 
Then just carry a land claim block with you?

The real cons are, as you've mentioned, the time invested in setting up and then picking back up this hypothetical "kill kit" as well as the inventory space it takes up. But who knows? It might save your rear end a couple of times. I've never attempted an Intellect build (waiting for A20 experimental for that), so I'm completely new on the subject. I'm just spitballing really.
With good rng, have to have the damn schematic show up or have one drop, you can do it with the junk turrets (the ones that shoot, not the sledge turrets). But that ends up requiring room to reliably maneuver so that the turret has time to wear them down, and good rng getting the Tech Junkie mags to boost the baton, and allot of the harder POIs don't have that. Gets easier after you can have 2 of them active, not on par with an M60, tac rifle or the tier 2 or 3 shotguns though (Junk turrets are Steel tier). 

 
I updated my post with 19.5 data. Also made it true DPS instead of damage per minute, sorted it, and replaced internal names with english localization where available.
For ease of reference for others who might be following since you did more than just update the chart 🙂



Chart.

meleeHandPlayer 6.67
Flashlight 7.80
Stone Shovel 8.00
Torch 8.50
Stone Spear 9.44
Iron Shovel 9.67
Bone Knife 10.20
Knuckle Wraps 10.33
Stone Axe 10.50
meleeToolFarmT1IronHoe 10.78
Iron Spear 11.37
Iron Pickaxe 12.13
Hunting Knife 12.20
meleeWpnBatonT1JunkBaton 12.60
Plasma Baton 12.60
Stun Baton 12.60
Wooden Club 12.65
Candy Cane Knife 13.20
Impact Driver 13.75
Ratchet 13.75
Wrench 13.75
Claw Hammer 14.00
Taza's Stone Axe 14.00
Steel Shovel 14.50
Stone Sledgehammer 14.58
Baseball Bat 15.08
Iron Fireaxe 15.10
Iron Knuckles 15.17
Candy Cane Club 16.64
Steel Spear 17.05
Iron Sledgehammer 17.45
Machete 18.15
Steel Pickaxe 21.27
Steel Axe 22.64
Steel Knuckles 22.67
Steel Club 22.71
Steel Sledgehammer 26.18
Dev: Hammer Of God 5833.33
Dev: Super Wrench 8333.33



Holy crap, no wonder I never feel pressed to upgrade from the Stone Sledge till long after Tier 3 loot starts dropping when I run strength. Don't have to get lucky on drops to do decent, just have to toss in some points and know how to control distance...

 
Int tree by design encourages the use of guns outside of the int tree. Why would you rely on only turrets and stun batons when you lose no advantages by also using an ak or shotgun or w/e. 

Since the int tree ranged weapon is the turrets, which can be placed, it is obvious to me that you are also supposed to use the non-perked or minimally perked gun of choice from the other trees. Not doing so seems stupid to me.

As for no traps, traps are in the int tree. You should definitely be making use of your ability to make them cheap and obtain some experience from their kills. 

You are setting up arbitrary restrictions for no real reason that i can see. When you test strength builds, do you disallow the use of concrete since you get that by mining?
I completely agree with your point of INT encouraging other builds/use of other weapons . My point though, is that the baton is of no help to me with a full INT build, and that is not an arbitrary restriction, it's just that the weapon is a new age sharp stick with lacking electrical capabilities. When using the baton, I feel like a human sledge turret and I do not get the kills, granted those are for the electrical traps, but still. Even with Nerd candy I feel like I'm doing absolutely nothing vs even a plain electrical fence. So it's actually a matter of either bumping a little bit the dps to the baton or adding debuffs/mods to the weapon that make the player feel like he/she is DOING something. Also INT has a serious handicap when it comes to movility, so I wouldn't mind more MOD variety to enrich the baton.

With a weird weapon like the baton with its HUGE disadvantages, my question to Gazz was one of "what the hell will a baton tree/primitive baton" add to the equation ?

His answer was: Nothing. We just love to make sharp sticks (paraphrasing, lol).

 
Regarding the Intellect build, just asking out of curiosity, has anyone tried to set up mini kill stations within tougher POI's to fall back to? (All you would need to bring along with you is some gas, a generator bank, some engines, a wire tool, a turret or two, and some ammo to fill them.)

So you've obviously played an Intellect build before. Would you mind sharing some screenshots (or with just basic text) displaying the perks you personally selected? If anyone is still cautiously interested in trying said build (like yours truly), they could use it as a basic guide. :)  Ex. When you take perk A, when you take perk B, etc.
You basically do that with the auto junk turrets, especially if you have it maxed out so both can fire at the same time.  I will place my regular one facing towards the direction I am moving forward and the one loaded with shotgun junk ammo facing backwards.  If I get oberwhelmed by the number or quality of zombies, I fall back so the zombies follow me.  Then my rear facing turret shoots them from behind.  Lots of moving around to keep the turrets constantly  firing with the baton strike when they get in close.

I don’t have screenshots as I am bad at taking them when I play, but I should be able to fire up the game in a bit and try to remember all that I took - I won’t be able to recall the order though since it was a few playthroughs ago.

 
Edit: I 100% suspect that the Feral Wight is going to be removed at some point or it'll be downsized to fit the standard zombie model.

 
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I hope that the zombie corpses are added to the roads as deco to replace some of the traditional gore blocks. :)  Variety is the spice of life and all that.

 
You basically do that with the auto junk turrets, especially if you have it maxed out so both can fire at the same time.  I will place my regular one facing towards the direction I am moving forward and the one loaded with shotgun junk ammo facing backwards.  If I get oberwhelmed by the number or quality of zombies, I fall back so the zombies follow me.  Then my rear facing turret shoots them from behind.  Lots of moving around to keep the turrets constantly  firing with the baton strike when they get in close.

I don’t have screenshots as I am bad at taking them when I play, but I should be able to fire up the game in a bit and try to remember all that I took - I won’t be able to recall the order though since it was a few playthroughs ago.


Cool, thanks. :)

I might start it earlier than expected, since I just deleted my 7D2D world on day 5... I haven't made it past that point since late A18.

 
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