PC 7d2d horde "problem"
- Thread starter Viktoriusiii
- Start date
Royal Deluxe
Refugee
Sorry but if Death doesnt matter you CAN NOT loose this game. And in a group of 5 Everything is MUCH easyer.
Btw are you sure they play on a high difficulty, i mean she died on own spikes and then she spawned with her backpack.
That is per definition much much easyer than everything else. Normally at 4:16 she should had to get her backpack on the allready started hordenight, ohh wait, no normally she should be busy making a bedroll to solve the starterquest
Ohh to make that clear.
I dont perceive A17 as too hard. Only as impossible to play as builder like in A16
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A Nice Cup of Tea
Refugee
Don't forget that Insane also increases your gamestage multiplier, so you got more (and harder) zombies than you would would have at a lower difficulty, plus it decreases the damage that you do to zombies so you would have killed more before running out of ammunition.
(Of course, setting it to 64 zombies would have had a much bigger effect - but this would be adding to it.)
Nighty
Refugee
Personaly when was playing with bf on survivalist, old base design got shreded in seconds once they got past 3 layers of spikes.
Then tried a tower with 1 block wide bridge, 2 max upgraded forged iron doors went down in 1 hour or something while shooting blunderbuss and crossbow.
For third horde there was no progress so death.
For 28th night made a separate from main base tower made of cobblestone, with a bunch of supports, a ramp leading up and 4 max upgraded forged iron doors and also a better shooting stations to always hit their heads for extra dmg and instakills from perks, used 108 shotgun ammo and a bunch of blunderbuss after, they chewed thro it in 2+ hours.. so just double the time before when had only 2 doors, the fact we were shooting at them didn't matter in the end.
Last night before end of e208, 35th night, the same settup but everything was made into reinforced concrete and all doors were made into max upgraded steel doors aswell a second tower was build in the back in case they break in (anyone suprised by radiculousness that had to make a second similar tower bcs was scared of zombies getting past 4 max upgraded steel doors?), anyway, spent all 40 shotgun ammo and kept bombarding with blunderbuss, they couldn't get past, hours went by, they kept comming, was starting to run low on ammo even tho started with over 250 blunderbuss ammo and 40 shells, then the irradiated cop exploded and took us down, bf defended to the end as zombies finally stoped comming like 1 or half hour before end of night so basicaly didn't matter, they got thro 3 maxed steel doors when died and the last had like 3k+ hp left, they broke also a few reinforced concrete blocks on the ramp etc.
We both had like lvl 60 or something, to finally beat the night not even insane difficulty it took tons of ammo (not realy a big deal), 4 maxed steel doors which equal 28k hp which were fixed by bf untill he ran out of steel, reinforced concrete all arround so they don't kill blocks above the door jump over it and a ton of stuns from shotgun perks, if not for the fact that could drop those irradiated cops eliminating them from the fight for few seconds, those doors would propably melt in 1 hour.
Watched the video Gazz, from what can see, half of them were running arround while zombies stupidly kept running at spikes and if they turned arround to chase them, they were too slow (tested heavy armor, it gives alot of protection but who cares if with light armor can just outrun anything and not get hit). Can't see much of a base tanking in there, rather kitting and running arround, so basicaly just gave more evidence that castles/bunkers are dead and just run arround and kite. Also they were in a group, exp sharing, the more players the easier game gets bcs ppl can run in different directions to kill more zombies for exp faster so they reach concrete and stuff faster, not to mention they got more workers to make all this massive building into reinforced concrete and metal spikes all arround. Bonus points, watch from 4:31:30, she says that's normal default settings, which means, laughable dmg and hp zombies, air drops with 20 medkits and army arsenal each every 3 days, 100% loot etc.
Then tried a tower with 1 block wide bridge, 2 max upgraded forged iron doors went down in 1 hour or something while shooting blunderbuss and crossbow.
For third horde there was no progress so death.
For 28th night made a separate from main base tower made of cobblestone, with a bunch of supports, a ramp leading up and 4 max upgraded forged iron doors and also a better shooting stations to always hit their heads for extra dmg and instakills from perks, used 108 shotgun ammo and a bunch of blunderbuss after, they chewed thro it in 2+ hours.. so just double the time before when had only 2 doors, the fact we were shooting at them didn't matter in the end.
Last night before end of e208, 35th night, the same settup but everything was made into reinforced concrete and all doors were made into max upgraded steel doors aswell a second tower was build in the back in case they break in (anyone suprised by radiculousness that had to make a second similar tower bcs was scared of zombies getting past 4 max upgraded steel doors?), anyway, spent all 40 shotgun ammo and kept bombarding with blunderbuss, they couldn't get past, hours went by, they kept comming, was starting to run low on ammo even tho started with over 250 blunderbuss ammo and 40 shells, then the irradiated cop exploded and took us down, bf defended to the end as zombies finally stoped comming like 1 or half hour before end of night so basicaly didn't matter, they got thro 3 maxed steel doors when died and the last had like 3k+ hp left, they broke also a few reinforced concrete blocks on the ramp etc.
We both had like lvl 60 or something, to finally beat the night not even insane difficulty it took tons of ammo (not realy a big deal), 4 maxed steel doors which equal 28k hp which were fixed by bf untill he ran out of steel, reinforced concrete all arround so they don't kill blocks above the door jump over it and a ton of stuns from shotgun perks, if not for the fact that could drop those irradiated cops eliminating them from the fight for few seconds, those doors would propably melt in 1 hour.
Watched the video Gazz, from what can see, half of them were running arround while zombies stupidly kept running at spikes and if they turned arround to chase them, they were too slow (tested heavy armor, it gives alot of protection but who cares if with light armor can just outrun anything and not get hit). Can't see much of a base tanking in there, rather kitting and running arround, so basicaly just gave more evidence that castles/bunkers are dead and just run arround and kite. Also they were in a group, exp sharing, the more players the easier game gets bcs ppl can run in different directions to kill more zombies for exp faster so they reach concrete and stuff faster, not to mention they got more workers to make all this massive building into reinforced concrete and metal spikes all arround. Bonus points, watch from 4:31:30, she says that's normal default settings, which means, laughable dmg and hp zombies, air drops with 20 medkits and army arsenal each every 3 days, 100% loot etc.
Royal Deluxe
Refugee
Btw in the current build i started a new way to play
First week i started with
Scavenger
120 Min
18
Walk
Walk
Walk
Walk
Block Durability 25%
Loot abundance 200%
Loot Respawn 5 Days
Air drops 3 days and marked
Until Day 7 20:00
Then i changed to
Adventurer
240 Min
18
Walk
Jog
Run
Run
Block Durability 100%
Loot abundance 100%
Loot Respawn 5 Days
Air drops off
Day 14,21,28,42, 56 i set again new options
Until now its a easy going. But my base uses ramps
(That i buffed coffee and Mining is clear i guess)
First week i started with
Scavenger
120 Min
18
Walk
Walk
Walk
Walk
Block Durability 25%
Loot abundance 200%
Loot Respawn 5 Days
Air drops 3 days and marked
Until Day 7 20:00
Then i changed to
Adventurer
240 Min
18
Walk
Jog
Run
Run
Block Durability 100%
Loot abundance 100%
Loot Respawn 5 Days
Air drops off
Day 14,21,28,42, 56 i set again new options
Until now its a easy going. But my base uses ramps
(That i buffed coffee and Mining is clear i guess)
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Nighty
Refugee
At the time though that if supports or surroundings are weaker than the door/wall they gonna destroy them, but aparently they keep beelining to the shortest way in which was the door bcs of the ramp leading to it so zombies didn't care that they propably could take off the supports much easier than a kill zoned quad steel doors.
Aldranon
Refugee
If you make a completely symmetrical base where all sides are equally strong, they could attack anywhere and that's fine with MP. But playing SP, that is not a good option.
You want them to attack where you have good fields of fire. So you could make all other places 2 thick of reinforced and the area you want to defend 1 thick.
In reality, they would simply break the bottom blocks, making the structure completely collapse (remember those early screenshots of what happened to the barn?remember how we thought zombies would start whaling at everything, breaking it down instead of following stupid paths that makes gps tracking look bad?)
I think everything where you use the A.I. against them is absuing it.
I think everything that you couldn't do in reallife (more or less! I couldn't dig a complete shelter in 7 days but I hope you know what I mean) is an exploit.
If I hide on top of a huge poi, zombies should just start whacking at the foundation until it collapses!
If I use funneling, they should just whack every block (while some try to get to me)
If I use loops, they should not rerout, but just start whacking in frustration...
Minus the drama and outrage you are right that the AI needs further improvement.
Lucky for you then that the guy working on AI isn't finished yet. As he told us, randomizing AI behaviour is on his list of things to do. Which means at some point in the future some zombies will not follow a loop or a funnel but start whacking at anything in front of them
Guppycur's video is great because it shows how to exploit the AI and hints at ways to improve the AI. Generally zombies should not backtrack indefinitely. Easy way: Each zombie has a minimum distance counter it updates every few seconds. The second or third time the zombie retargets and the actual distance to the target is higher than minumum again the zombie starts whacking at nearest block.
Here is where we differ in opinion. The A16 AI (even if we assume the circle running is gone) is not better. A17 AI is much nearer to a point where zombies can do something like "scouting every block until it found the weakest and then all head there".
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Viktoriusiii
Refugee
Lets say it another way:
A17's A.I. has higher potential. They at least find entrances and actually use predetermined paths (which the previous one was unable to do).
A16's A.I. was way better refined in breaking into grounded structures. They felt random, but still had a sense of where they should go.
So, I still like A16's A.I. more... for now. But I do accept that A17 has a bigger potential, A.I. wise.
Kalarro
Refugee
I agree with this.
In practice, a16 was better. But now that they have a good algorithm working, they could tune it to be better.
(and btw, improved zombie AI was the change i was more looking forward to in the notes, in no way do I want them just less skilled. It just turned out to not work in a cool way for defenses)
Aldranon
Refugee
Last hoard night I lost three blocks, all of them from the original POI. I shot the zombies from above, most of the time they died before they stopped to attack. When I reloaded, is when they were able to attack but the most at one spot was two and I killed them quickly after I finished reloading.
I expended about 200 rounds of 7.62mm (usually 2-3 rounds per zombie from the AK) and that was concerning but I looted some nice places and I have more than I started that last BM. The question is could I continue that? Probably, as using steel ammo and mining surface rock alone should do it at my mining level.
Nighty
Refugee
As long as can hit their heads constantly and drop them before they deal major damage during their life time, sure, it just gonna get so much harder when big guys come that sponge alot and slap blocks for hundrets of dmg. Btw, gj on hoarding so much ak ammo but doesn't the 200% durability loss hurt too much?
Limited to grounded bases (if that excludes stilt bases) i kind of agree.
I still think funneled pathways are as natural to real castles as thick walls so in practice A16 to me was frustratingly immune to any more "intelligent" design than stilts.
Even if both AIs had comparable advantages I would prefer A17's because it needs/makes possible new ways to build your defense. I played the old AI for nearly 2 years and 2 alpha releases now and knowing exactly what needs to be done is not as good as the new and shiny :smile-new:
So our analysis of the situation isn't really far off, just our subjective assessment differs.
Doctor3D
Refugee
Well your example was a BREACH. That's a failure to defend. Whoopty-doo they didn't die. Who does during horde night? You just escape up to the roof and shoot down. The fact they can breach several layers so quickly even when people are actively shooting them is a problem.
If you've done everything correctly - made good defenses, have plenty of ammo, hit what you shoot at, actively try to make repairs and kill at the same time - a classic base made out of stone should not be breached so quickly at least so early in the game. I have been breached many times over the years and until A17 - in most cases I was like "yep, i deserved that" - but in A17 its CHEAP. They just chew threw it and there's no real counter to prevent it.
No one who still makes classic bases are just 'sitting behind a stone wall' "waiting" are you serious? Really!? The kind of people who are still trying to play this game as intended are far away from the ones who are just building a base, cowering in a corner hoping it holds without defending. You are so disconnected from reality....
The game currently rewards exploiting the AI with as little resource usage as possible. It is even easier now than ever to exploit the AI - a lot of times it's so bad that it's not even intentional. I just learned on my last playthrough through no fault of my own that if you make a rail system on pillars with a pillbox in the middle to drop down and shoot them face to face in - that they prefer just all bunching up at the pillars themselves and you just shoot them in the back all night long without any effort.
The only way to actually make them challenging is to put no obstacles and make a square so they have a clear path. The most boring thing ever. I want to be down in the trenches with them fighting them off my base not exploiting them. I do not consider block damage boosted as a challenge. I actually look at YOU DEVS as the 'exploiters' if you want to play that game. You just boost their damage to blocks and say - see we make zombies more challenging.
There is NOTHING impressive about an AI that can destroy blocks THAT quickly. It does far more harm to the game than good. Makes all blocks but steel in the game useless.
Nighty
Refugee
Well, to the post above. Played for past 1 hour and was observing a zombie leaving a poi that was blocked by 2 pieces of stairs, it just machinegunned those blocks lol, their attack vs players is not that fast, but they hit blocks like 3 times per second, no wonder they chew thro everything like thro paper, especialy when they stack inside eachother during hordes.
Our second attempt at a base is almost impenetrable and all 3 of us are level 80-100. We've been using this base since around level 20, day 7. its day like 24 and all we've done is replace spikes on the outside. The zombies take the easiest path to you now. So if breaking the wall is easiest they will do that, if going throught your maze is easiest they will do that isntead. We have 2-3 thick flagstone (slowly turning into concrete) walls all around us. Metal spikes cover every surface they will walk on and barbed wire on the walls to slow them down. We shoot at them from within the center (we used half blocks so we can see and shoot).
WE've only lost blocks to stupdi stuff like the groudn being uneven and the zombies got stuck and started being screwey >..>
WE've only lost blocks to stupdi stuff like the groudn being uneven and the zombies got stuck and started being screwey >..>