PC 7d2d horde "problem"
- Thread starter Viktoriusiii
- Start date
Gazz
Fun Pimps Staff
Well, the problem is that a lot of players did super awesome with the broken AI of A16 and came to the conclusion that it was because of their super awesome skills.
A17 is now pointing out this misconception so clearly the game must be broken.
I have watched a live stream of insane / always run / permadeath... on day 38. And the 2 players - who had not died at the time - were defending a base instead of "simply running away".
Possible? Absolutely.
Can everyone do it? Absolutely not.
Playing at the highest difficulty is... difficult. I don't know how else I can explain that.
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
This is the new "base on stiltz" yaaay... from one exploit to another -_-Stair Designs are the new "normal"
I will NEVER use stupid exploits.
But while on A16 you could still build "normal" bases with moderate to high success... now, they just chew through you... which makes it soooo sad
Kalarro
Refugee
Wow, just wow. So this is what happens with our feedback? You transform it into what you want to hear?
I tell you before a17 we did a 360؛ defense perimeter, with effort, and got surrounded by zombies beating it, and that was fun.
I tell you now I just have to do a minimaze or even just a miniramp and the dumb AI just stays there, while if I try to do a cool base that requires more effort, its worse bc of the damage the zombies do now to blocks.
I tell you this is much more BORING (not hard).
And instead of understanding that, you condescendly tell us we thought we were too good but we are not able to survive the new AI?
I am really amazed about your understanding. The forum is full of posts saying how easy it is to defend now. Just not the cool way. But no, the new AI is so intelligent that we are not able to adapt and thus our complains are wines.
Incredible understanding skills.
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Viktoriusiii
Refugee
riiight... and they absolutely never EVER EVER used exploits and totally only used normal pois to defend themselves... RIIIGHT.
Seeing how they chew through x0.000blockhp in the first HOUR of hordenight... I call bull♥♥♥♥ on that
Royal Deluxe
Refugee
Simple test
One Zombie
One minute (arround 63 Seconds)
1500 Hp block
The rest is math
One Zombie
One minute (arround 63 Seconds)
1500 Hp block
The rest is math
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
problem:
doors are like maybe 8hp? double block. All zombies focus on it (and no iron spikes in front will keep tehm from it)
8 zombies kill a completely upgraded metal door within seconds (on insane. maybe a bit more on normal). I cannot repair the door as fast as they damage it.
Not saying you are for this BS... just saying that, if they WOULD (like in previous alphas) try and simply whack on different parts of the buildings, this would be more or less fine. But as they will focus on the weakpoint like some high tech military unit, the only possible way to defend is to funnel and throw molotovs/pipebombs. (or to completely abuse AI and make them loop)
doors are like maybe 8hp? double block. All zombies focus on it (and no iron spikes in front will keep tehm from it)
8 zombies kill a completely upgraded metal door within seconds (on insane. maybe a bit more on normal). I cannot repair the door as fast as they damage it.
Not saying you are for this BS... just saying that, if they WOULD (like in previous alphas) try and simply whack on different parts of the buildings, this would be more or less fine. But as they will focus on the weakpoint like some high tech military unit, the only possible way to defend is to funnel and throw molotovs/pipebombs. (or to completely abuse AI and make them loop)
CoolJ
Refugee
What is even more stupid is you unlock the ability to make special arrows and bolts before you can even make the materials for them now. Who ever is running that end of the game dev is a jackass. Their audio engineer is also trash. I like how the patch notes imply that we can now craft steel bolts and arrows whenever. What they really should have said is that they screwed up the ability to repair your early game pick or machete that you bought off the trader.
I have a tip for you pimps. These kind of power-tripping Chad jokes stopped being funny when I was 12.
AutoCAD. There is similar free tool - Draftsight. That kind of drafting software is perfect for designing structures in voxel based games. No more situations like 'oh crap I need 1 block space more...'
And stair kind of bases are sad. I agree. But I don't see other option. With no large spikes and insane zombie block damage 360؛ perimeter defense is impossible (at least early game). Devs could probably fix that by making zombies switch to area attack mode when they can't reach player within specific time. Anyway I'd like to have possibility to build base that helps me to deal with the horde and doesn't feel exploit.
Royal Deluxe
Refugee
Well, the question is if it is an exploit. Not every use of the Gameworld is an exploit.
If Zombies are smart enough to find a path and you use that against them i would call that intelligent acting.
In real i would do exact this
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
In reality, they would simply break the bottom blocks, making the structure completely collapse (remember those early screenshots of what happened to the barn?
remember how we thought zombies would start whaling at everything, breaking it down instead of following stupid paths that makes gps tracking look bad?)I think everything where you use the A.I. against them is absuing it.
I think everything that you couldn't do in reallife (more or less! I couldn't dig a complete shelter in 7 days but I hope you know what I mean) is an exploit.
If I hide on top of a huge poi, zombies should just start whacking at the foundation until it collapses!
If I use funneling, they should just whack every block (while some try to get to me)
If I use loops, they should not rerout, but just start whacking in frustration...
Unpopular opinion:
While they often couldn't find entrances to underground bases, I liked A16 A.I. 10x more, because they were (above ground) dangerous, unpredictable and sometimes nonsensicle (you know... zombies... those things with rotten brains).
They should come in numbers and not with special forces, scouting every block until they found the weakest block and then all head there.
Gazz
Fun Pimps Staff
Very funny.
Sitting behind a stone wall and waiting for horde night to be over won't do the trick. I know that it was a perfectly viable tactic in A16 and apparently that was not considered "boring" or "an exploit".
I have watched "classic" bases being defended. Walls, spikes, the works. No pathing tricks at all.
So that works but it is not what you consider "the cool way"?
IMO a base does not have to be completely immune to damage so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
Just no. So much no. If I spend my whole 7 days building up a base with "logical" defenses (meaning upgrading blocks and putting spikes around, while beeing able to shoot outside) THAT SHOULD NOT BE OVERRUN WITHIN 1 INGAME HOUR!
This has nothing to do with boring.
Here I make a step to agree with you:
Digging a mote, filling it with spikes and expecting the night to be solved is boring. Not having ANY interaction with zombies because they all die on spikes is boring.
BUT the game should follow basic gamedesign:
Risk-Input-Reward/Punishment
If I put ALL of my 7 days into building a base that may withstand the hordenight, instead of going looting and so on (lets say you have a good pick and shovel from who knows where), you have put 7 days worth of Input into the base. IF the base breaches within the first hour, THAT IS NOT THE ADEQUAT REWARD.
Yes waiting for zombies to die on your defenses is low risk. (but also high risk if they breach it, because then you are trapped)
Basically, traditional basebuilding is dead. You always need to close off the door with cement (or more) and they will still break through in about 2-3 hours.
It is just so infuriating that you think that because I do not want to abuse the A.I. that I'm just too bad for this game.
You wanna know how often I have died (insane, always jog) while not on hordenight?
ONCE. Because I took a quest in 208 that had a feral at the end and I only had a bow.
I refined my basedesign THREE TIMES always improving it and blaming myself for the failure. But in the end, its still never enough to even get further than midnight (if even that).
And for you to have the balls to claim that I am "just too bad"... I don't know if I should laugh or cry because someone like you is actually moderating the forums.
This has nothing to do with boring.
Here I make a step to agree with you:
Digging a mote, filling it with spikes and expecting the night to be solved is boring. Not having ANY interaction with zombies because they all die on spikes is boring.
BUT the game should follow basic gamedesign:
Risk-Input-Reward/Punishment
If I put ALL of my 7 days into building a base that may withstand the hordenight, instead of going looting and so on (lets say you have a good pick and shovel from who knows where), you have put 7 days worth of Input into the base. IF the base breaches within the first hour, THAT IS NOT THE ADEQUAT REWARD.
Yes waiting for zombies to die on your defenses is low risk. (but also high risk if they breach it, because then you are trapped)
Basically, traditional basebuilding is dead. You always need to close off the door with cement (or more) and they will still break through in about 2-3 hours.
It is just so infuriating that you think that because I do not want to abuse the A.I. that I'm just too bad for this game.
You wanna know how often I have died (insane, always jog) while not on hordenight?
ONCE. Because I took a quest in 208 that had a feral at the end and I only had a bow.
I refined my basedesign THREE TIMES always improving it and blaming myself for the failure. But in the end, its still never enough to even get further than midnight (if even that).
And for you to have the balls to claim that I am "just too bad"... I don't know if I should laugh or cry because someone like you is actually moderating the forums.
Yep. Ballance is what makes game good. Also I like when game gives me challenge to test its mechanics and find best way to deal with enemies. I found best way to build base (effort/result) but if feels a bit exploit. This is not satisfying. This is still exp release, I hope for improvements.
Gazz
Fun Pimps Staff
(horde night at 4:15)
This is not some hand-picked example but simply the last one I happened to watch.
A fortified base with several players defending it. One or two on the ground, most up top. Plenty of zombies to go around and attack the actual base.
Some damage was done.
No ramps or pathing shenanigans.
You can blame players like that for my critical view on "base defense is impossible".
In fact, if they happen to be online, go to their channel and ask what hax they are using.
This is not some hand-picked example but simply the last one I happened to watch.
A fortified base with several players defending it. One or two on the ground, most up top. Plenty of zombies to go around and attack the actual base.
Some damage was done.
No ramps or pathing shenanigans.
You can blame players like that for my critical view on "base defense is impossible".
In fact, if they happen to be online, go to their channel and ask what hax they are using.
Aldranon
Refugee
Firstly, its good that Insanity difficulty is well, insanely hard.
My A17 forts are the "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" style.
In other words, my outer defense is solely used to guide the zombies to a point where they are running straight at my position for 3-4 seconds. AK works best then Marksman. Doing this is easy once you understand what they are heading for (finding the weak spot in your defense).
That's the "Big Stick" part of my defense.
The "Speak softly" part is a slab of reinforce concrete 7x7x10. A ladder well that's not in the center so the zombies attack one side and go up where I am waiting with a SMG pointed down the shaft with over 400 rounds...
Its never gotten to the second part because I can always make/loot enough 7.62mm to hold the first line of defense. But I think 90 minute days is the shortest time I can go as it takes a LOT of time, mining and looting for my way.
My A17 forts are the "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" style.
In other words, my outer defense is solely used to guide the zombies to a point where they are running straight at my position for 3-4 seconds. AK works best then Marksman. Doing this is easy once you understand what they are heading for (finding the weak spot in your defense).
That's the "Big Stick" part of my defense.
The "Speak softly" part is a slab of reinforce concrete 7x7x10. A ladder well that's not in the center so the zombies attack one side and go up where I am waiting with a SMG pointed down the shaft with over 400 rounds...
Its never gotten to the second part because I can always make/loot enough 7.62mm to hold the first line of defense. But I think 90 minute days is the shortest time I can go as it takes a LOT of time, mining and looting for my way.
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Viktoriusiii
Refugee
Gazz wtf...
day 45 (which means you have a lot more stuff than someone who was mainly focused on basebuilding for 7 days)
4 players to prepare.
2 players kiting zombies (okay well done its high risk high reward!) is not something I as a solo player can do...
well... I can... but then I don't need a base!
oh and btw: THEY STILL BREACHED THE STUPID POI!!!
How on earth does this mean that a soloplayer (on insane or not doesn't matter) trying to play basedefense is viable and everything is totally balanced?
Look. Its nice that kiting zombies is still a possibility. Really (except that its day 45 and she has like a million perks already).
But that was not what I was talking about. I was talking about basedefense! Which is not at all what they did.
I like challenges. But a day 7 horde should not be as powerful as it is. That was basically my point.
My bunker strategy MIGHT have worked with 8 blood moon zombies, but I'm not sure about that, since they can clip inside each other and all start whaling on the door!
You seem to think "oh look some people can survive the horde, that means you are just too bad at it", when that was not in any way related.
I have no trouble surviving the horde if I want to. There are about 5 possible methods I can think of of the top of my head that would give me 100% security.
But I want to survive the was 7D2D was "intended". With basebuilding/basedefence, not with kiting (at least not the whole night) and not with exploits.
day 45 (which means you have a lot more stuff than someone who was mainly focused on basebuilding for 7 days)
4 players to prepare.
2 players kiting zombies (okay well done its high risk high reward!) is not something I as a solo player can do...
well... I can... but then I don't need a base!
oh and btw: THEY STILL BREACHED THE STUPID POI!!!
How on earth does this mean that a soloplayer (on insane or not doesn't matter) trying to play basedefense is viable and everything is totally balanced?
Look. Its nice that kiting zombies is still a possibility. Really (except that its day 45 and she has like a million perks already).
But that was not what I was talking about. I was talking about basedefense! Which is not at all what they did.
I like challenges. But a day 7 horde should not be as powerful as it is. That was basically my point.
My bunker strategy MIGHT have worked with 8 blood moon zombies, but I'm not sure about that, since they can clip inside each other and all start whaling on the door!
You seem to think "oh look some people can survive the horde, that means you are just too bad at it", when that was not in any way related.
I have no trouble surviving the horde if I want to. There are about 5 possible methods I can think of of the top of my head that would give me 100% security.
But I want to survive the was 7D2D was "intended". With basebuilding/basedefence, not with kiting (at least not the whole night) and not with exploits.
Aldranon
Refugee
They used my favorite POI! It is just a fun base to work with.
View attachment 26299
I built a trench around most of the POI so 80% will come around this corner and head where I am pointing. They will attack one of the garage doors and I get a point blank shot at them.
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Kalarro
Refugee
Beeing viable doesnt mean you did it even with a cool base. Most players with cool 360؛ perimeter bases, killed the horde while inside the base. While at the same time repairing and needing to care about different fronts.
And still, if somebody did what you said, at least he had to build a frikin good and strong perimeter. So he was safe and passive, after doing a lot of work. Now he just has to build a ramp. Thats it.
So, actively defending before:
Building and defending a whole perimeter.
Actively defending now:
Making a maze with much less materials, they will after all not even attack it, and defending 1 point.
Passively defending before:
Staying passively inside a perimeter that took quite some effort to build
Passively defending now:
Staying passively on a ramp
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I am doing old base designs in a17 too, I dont find exploiting the paths fun. But it's just not intended for it. You try to penalize it vs doing a maze. It's like animals suddenly dropping a food that doesnt need to be cooked and is awesome, and telling us "you can still cook the old food".