"The PvP Update"

Gazz said:
"The PvP Update"

How would the game have to be balanced to make PVP viable?

Broad strokes.

I'm no PVP player so while I can see the balance issues in the abstract, I am more of a neutral observer here. =)

Sound

As mentioned here recently it's really hard to sneak up on someone if your food level drops below 50% or so and your character has an orgasm that can be heard from half a kilometer away.

Hiding yourself or your base is equally hard for the same reason.

Keep in mind that the notion of hiding being the only defense can not be the base for everything. It is one aspect!

If it can be made sufficiently hard to break into bases, hiding would not be the only viable solution.

Offline raiding / griefing vs PVP

PVP in theory:

2-5 players have an exciting time of hide and seek or assaulting someone's base.
PVP in practice:

You log in and your base has been reduced to rubble.
Every. Single. Day.

Ark has turrets and NPC (dinosaurs) and 99% of the PVP in that game looks like... you log in and your base has been reduced to rubble (and all your dinos killed).

Can NPC and turrets defend a base while the player is offline or will having turrets and NPC only increase the impact of griefing on the victim because he also has to rebuild turrets and find/hire NPC again?

I talked to MM about this and he does not consider a separate (and working) offline claim protection a necessity. Is that so?

(previous claim stone topic: here)

On the 4 or 5 PVP servers were I asked no one even knew if "offline claim protection" actually worked. (as in having a higher x than when online)

Loss and recovering from it

Okay, so you got raided and you respawn around the central hub in your undies.

Spawn spots are static so on an "established" PVP server with an "alpha tribe" you now log into the steel cages built around all the newbie spawn spots and would have to knock down the wall with your fists.

With only 2 layers you have to destroy 4 blocks for a total of 13 RL hours of punching.

You would of course starve to death and respawn in a different cage several times before you had a chance to get out of one such spot.

Oh, and before you laugh it off as a "no one would ever do that"... I logged into a PVP server, looked up, and saw this:



Land claimed, naturally. I am not making this up...

But let's say you are dedicated enough to this particular server to not quit but instead invest a few RL days to get back out of the starter cages and that the alpha tribe is terribly neglect about maintaining their cages.

Ideally you have caches of gear hidden away but let's say they were found as well.

On a PVE server where people build awesome bases instead of trying to cave each other's heads in the resource balance works well enough.

On a PVP server... should you harvest resources faster?

I'm not talking about digging faster - but instead of getting 25 rocks and 2 iron from a stone block you might get 100 rocks and 8 iron from the same block.

If fighting players is supposed to be a substantial part of the game, base building / repair and resource harvesting needs to adjust.

Explosives / Rockets

On a PVE server, some players use TNT for mining / excavating which is no problem whatsoever.

I tried asking around on a few PVP servers today but that was a complete waste of time. No one knows ♥♥♥♥. I got a few guesses and opinions and zero usable data.

On a PVP server... how well do rockets and dynamite work?

How many of each do you need to get through an iron / vault door or open a chest?

Does it matter which block (upper/lower/before) of a door you target?

Time management

How long in RL units should it take to knock down a steel block or door?

Right now tools and skills are really powerful.

Near 400 DPS for a steel pick so with a x8 modifier, a steel block lasts 5 minutes, a vault door 8 minutes.

Does anyone actually do that or does everyone use explosives? (see above)

Blocks like "stone" have a

<property name="LPHardnessScale" value="2" />

If it works as designed (did not test it myself) then a stone block only has a 2x claim modifier instead of whatever the server setting is.

With a steel pick that's two hits tops so the most obvious way to attack someone's base would be to undermine it and let it collapse instead of going through the much harder front door.

Or am I missing something?

Naturally that doesn't count bedrock bases but should it be a requirement to build at bedrock to avoid this cheesy tactic?
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gazz, i would like to welcome you to come play pvp on our server sometime during 2.0 - our pvp players have many many great ideas that wouldn't take a rewrite of the game just simple balances and fixs that would dramatically improve the pvp experience.
 
Roland said:
You may be waiting for several decades.
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after all these years 2.0 finally brings a pvp update... not just by the weather portion of it but by the pvp meta that will change due to the new progression and biom mechanics. Its most definately a step in the right direction.
now if tfp would just focus on critical pvp bugs even only if its half as much as they do on twitch features progress could really be made.
 
Just because it changes things doesn't really make it even remotely a PVP update, but if it makes you happy, there isn't anything wrong with that. In the end, the weather and biomes only change things without really improving PVP. It is a fresh coat of paint, but not a new POI. 😁

A month or two after it is out and you will be complaining that they don't do anything for PVP again.
 
Riamus said:
Just because it changes things doesn't really make it even remotely a PVP update,
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anything that creates pvp opportunity is a good thing and 2.0 delivers.. no longer will players be able to run away to other bioms. Its most definately a pvp update. Sorry they gave pvp so much luv on this one instead of adding bandits the thing is a pvp update was long over due.
 
Yeah, I see neither. Not supporting someone's ideas or disagreeing with them or pointing out flaws in their statements isn't the same thing. And if it ever got to the point where it was, the moderators would warn people. There is also a place for things... This thread is about PVP and anything about PVP is fine here. That doesn't mean pointing out fake or inflated numbers or flaws in statements isn't okay, though. On the other hand, taking over the dev diary multiple times deserves pushback because that that the place to ask for PVP every could of months. Granted, that is my view and I'm no moderator, but that does seem to be the overall view here.

It is also important to allow discussion and debate from all points of view on topics on a public forum as long as they are the proper location. If people want all "yes men" who will agree with everything they say and tell them their ideas are all great, a public forum isn't the place to be. Discussion and debate and dissent is good. It can even help the original person to improve on their original idea. But it also lets the devs see what people think of an idea. If no one ever said an idea was bad, the devs might assume most people will like something even if that isn't true.
 
Maybe it's a lot, but he does continue to repeat the same inflated numbers every couple of months for years now. I know I've even suggested to him to just ask for the things he would like to see for PVP without putting up all the false and misleading information, but he ignores the advice. In the end, this back and forth with him isn't new and has gone on for a long time. If he felt it was going overboard, he could easily ask a moderator to ask people to rein it in. But that would be up to him whether or not he even considers it an issue. And it wouldn't mean people can't continue to point out the inflated and misleading information he posts if he keeps doing so. It isn't helpful to allow such false information to go unchallenged. And that is most of what people push back on.
 
Riamus said:
Maybe it's a lot, but he does continue to repeat the same inflated numbers every couple of months for years now. I know I've even suggested to him to just ask for the things he would like to see for PVP without putting up all the false and misleading information, but he ignores the advice. In the end, this back and forth with him isn't new and has gone on for a long time. If he felt it was going overboard, he could easily ask a moderator to ask people to rein it in. But that would be up to him whether or not he even considers it an issue. And it wouldn't mean people can't continue to point out the inflated and misleading information he posts if he keeps doing so. It isn't helpful to allow such false information to go unchallenged. And that is most of what people push back on.
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I appreciate your point of view too, but the rules of civility are not entirely subtle in their difference. I can see why he is pushing...he had official reason a million years ago and it sucks to get your hopes up then crushed. BUT this dude reinflated...yes...he grasps at every new scrap of hope. and yeah...he ignores arguements that don't acknowledge his points...i think we all can cop to that at sometimes. but...he is not rude. or a hater. he just wants something else included.
 
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