What happened to 4k maps?
- Thread starter MiTHMoN
- Start date
I've definitely had bad sessions on Valheim, and I look back on it and it wasn't enjoyable doing corpse runs. Luckily for me it's a lot easier to stay alive in 7DTD than it is in Valheim.
My point is, there's a quest distance that is far enough as to be unfun. And I think 800m is that upper distance for tier 1, 2, 3 quests. By the time you're doing tier 4's and 5's, you've probably got a motorcycle or 4x4, so it's a little more a fuel logistics thing.
That isn't specific to Navezgane or any map, just a general gameplay insight.
Well, it's not really about balancing quest rewards. I handed in a quest and the best item Rekt offered was a single magazine.
The fact is, there are only five progression methods. Six if you include player knowledge/skill.
1) Your character gains XP and levels up. That gives you skill points, more stats (health/stamina), and higher loot stage.
2) Loot, items. Finding the toilet knife/pistol, getting those mechanical parts for the wrench, etc.
3) Perk books. Some challenges are impossible (?) without eating perk books. Plus they give you solid gameplay boosts.
4) Crafting magazines. You could play the game without crafting or eating a magazine, but if you like crafting you *need* to loot magazines.
5) Quest points. The only way to increase quest points is to complete quests.
If you completely ignore questing, and later decide that you want to do a tier-6 quest, you can't unless you work through the quests. It's a reliable progression method. There's never a quest that you complete that's like "oh, even though you completed it, you don't get quest points this time". Meanwhile with looting, there are many times you loot and don't get anything you needed to progress.
If quests gave zero reward (except quest points), I would still complete them, because you can't take on tier-6 POIs without doing so. It's literally the only way to tackle the "end-game" content this game has.
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I will add though, I really do appreciate the bicycle reward after 10 quest points. The game is a lot better for giving free bicycles away.
Another thing I'll add, related to map size. I'm not sure exactly how 7DTD does it technically, but I assume it's similar to other voxel games.
The host of the peer-to-peer playthrough we're doing on Navezgane currently is experiencing huge lag (fps) spikes as we uncover more of the map. I have to assume it's because we're loading in more chunks of the map. And we haven't uncovered all of the map yet.
Like I said, 4x4=16, 6x6=36, so a 4k map is potentially 44% as big as a 6k map. If uncovering more of the map increases host computer load, then naturally area size being small is very important.
Same thing happened in Minecraft when I played years ago, going too far out and exploring too much strains the server.
Yeah, sure, a dedicated server would help, but the point is that smaller maps will seemingly cause smaller resource strains.
I originally came into this thread with a fondness for the pregen4k map, but I could be persuaded towards a denser 3k map being added as a pregen to the vanilla game.
The host of the peer-to-peer playthrough we're doing on Navezgane currently is experiencing huge lag (fps) spikes as we uncover more of the map. I have to assume it's because we're loading in more chunks of the map. And we haven't uncovered all of the map yet.
Like I said, 4x4=16, 6x6=36, so a 4k map is potentially 44% as big as a 6k map. If uncovering more of the map increases host computer load, then naturally area size being small is very important.
Same thing happened in Minecraft when I played years ago, going too far out and exploring too much strains the server.
Yeah, sure, a dedicated server would help, but the point is that smaller maps will seemingly cause smaller resource strains.
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I originally came into this thread with a fondness for the pregen4k map, but I could be persuaded towards a denser 3k map being added as a pregen to the vanilla game.
Krunch
Refugee
This is the short and sweet answer. There are feasible configurations for RWG that will return playable maps, but even with 3rd party map generators from A17 right up till today with Teragon, you are limited by trader and biome requirements being met vs a completely flat map in order to get Traders that work with the quest chain as well as the POIs you want. Teragon and a little practice is your best bet for 4k maps.
I would really like to see TFP modify the Trader quest system to just require all 5 traders be present in each map regardless of biomes. These requirements are frustrating as a map maker because I can make really incredible maps in both 2 and 4k, but the biome restrictions usually force me to have to nerf both the quest line and the digging quests entirely. Really nice performance and quick load times, just no quest system, which is a shame, as it excludes console players with the use of mods. While I know 'its moddable' is still always an option, this has been problematic for me for at least the last versions.
Javabean867
Survivor
oof corpse runs are the bane to my existence. I only have so much time to play a game, and things like that are antithetical to fun for me.
Leveling up should feel powerful(looking at you Ark). The grind should not be in how you get resources home(looking at you valhiem) Difficulty spikes should not be a thing(again valhiem) the best equipment you attain in 1 biome should be powerful enough in the next biome that you don't get 1 shot by a mosquito(VALHIEM!!!) anyways i feel that rant is off topic.
As you said below, you get a bicycle as a reward for completing tier1 quests. Making the radius for acceptable quest distance for tier2 quests larger. And if you reserve a perk point for the "vehicle" perk or save up money you can have a minibike in time for tier3 quests, with a minibike 800m is an acceptable distance. AND you can always decide to just not do a quest or do lower-tier quests for a day.
No, he offered a magazine and a few hundred dukes and a heap of XP and a reputation point (what you call Quest points below).
Even if the item reward is a dud you get showered with rewards, about as much for handing in the quest as you get out of the POI clearing in loot and XP.
And even if all item rewards offered are duds, you get offered 3 choices, you can always take the most valuable and directly sell it for the money.
Correct. But nobody talked about completely ignoring quests, just not doing quests that seem too far away. Simply loot some pois and wait for the next day quests. Or do lower tier quests for the day. Or relocate and create subbases elsewhere to eventually have lots of quest choices avaliable all over the map from various traders, some always near me (that is what I always do in all my single player games).
And a nitpick: You can do quests without getting quest points if you do more quests per day than your quest limit.
You are making my point here. At least for you the quest rewards obviously are too much as a single Quest point would be enough as an incentive to do them. This isn't true for all players, so there needs to be some more. And the reward is also meant as a balance for co-op multiplayer so they feel the need to co-op in quests and everyone gets a reward even if always late at looting the containers. I am not against the quest rewards in general, I just think their balance is still way off.
InfiniteWarrior
Hunter
OP's point. It used to have 4K pregens.
The ones I've rolled (from A21 onward) all have had some kind of weirdness going on. One I just tested had that raised corner of the POI sticking out into the road problem I thought had been fixed, for example. Maybe it's just too small to get acceptable results? That is a pretty small space to fit biomes, cities, towns, rivers, lakes and all. I personally haven't seen those kinds of weird happenings on sizes above 4096 with the exception of the odd rise between different kinds of roads and so forth.
I know.
I would assume that raised corners are not game-breaking, a missing trader is. One previous poster said he could generate all 4 traders if he made the right settings. And making the right settings to get a functional map, even if it takes a few tries, should be on par with a pregen map.
InfiniteWarrior
Hunter
Point is, 4096 appears to be too small to fit a in good variety of everything and causes weirdness as that described, including missing traders. There must be a way to ensure they're rendered regardless of map size. All other POIs are expendable and are expended quite often. I saw POIs, e.g. the outdoor concert venue, on the one I test-rolled for the first time in forever. The drive-in cinema appears to be equally considered expendable by RWG these days. Haven't seen that one since A21, either. At the peril of repeating myself, it appears to be too restrictive these days, whether to speed up rendering time or whatever the reason for so restricting it.
It's RWG they'd have to modify to ensure all of them appear, but the trader odd job system appears to have been tied to it for some unknown reason. As for regardless of biomes, I much preferred the traders randomized myself. It was like a box of chocolates. You never knew who you were gonna get.
They only need be locked down for story mode and the odd job system worked fine in A21's RWG maps regardless in which biome they appeared. So, I'd be very curious to know why TFP thinks they need to be locked down for the trader system to work in RWG, much less why they thought "no large cities in the forest biome" was a good idea. It is an indirect restriction of player choice. Best I can figure, RWG and the Navezgane map are treated equal despite that Navezgane is more hand-crafted...and could use renewed, detailed and focussed hand-crafting, imo, with a healthy dose of loving care. I don't understand why they didn't just produce the best Navezgane map possible in their opinion using a third party app or whatever it takes and hand place assets, e.g. the Dukes and Noah's compounds, by hand. Maybe a moderator can explain their train of thought on the subject, so the playerbase doesn't feel the need to speculate. It appears to be fashionable to accuse the devs of insisting players play "their way." I don't think that's true, but indirect effects make it seem so.
theFlu
Hunter
Because the game is still early access in their minds. The Nav map has been the same layout since the start, and I think it had some slight updates over time, but never a major overhaul. I'd be surprised if it doesn't get some attention with story; whether I expect it to be a major edit at that point is a bit of 50/50.
It has functioned well as a testing playground as is, there hasn't been a reason to spice it up too much, yet. We can both disagree if treating the title as "early access" at this point is correct, but that's what they're doing ...
Because the game is still early access in their minds. The Nav map has been the same layout since the start, and I think it had some slight updates over time, but never a major overhaul. I'd be surprised if it doesn't get some attention with story; whether I expect it to be a major edit at that point is a bit of 50/50.
It has functioned well as a testing playground as is, there hasn't been a reason to spice it up too much, yet. We can both disagree if treating the title as "early access" at this point is correct, but that's what they're doing ...
Navezgane has changed a lot over the years. The general layout is mostly the same, Diersville towards the center, biomes in the same general direction, rivers and lakes. But much has changed. A new town in the wasteland, traders moved around, and then to different biomes, plains just gone. I've avoided playing on Nav since A19, waiting for a final version with the story, but I've been on it some for testing, and there's lots I wouldn't recognize. I'm glad they didn't just produce 'the best Navezgane map possible' at some time in the past because there have been so many improvements along the way.
theFlu
Hunter
I mean, sure; testing playground
Add new POIs to the game, you'll want to add them to Nav; delete entire biomes, you won't want to load empty space instead so you have to change them.I haven't played on Nav in ages either, partly because RWG plays better and partly saving it for a playthrough in a "final touches" version. Whether we get a massive overhaul of it or not, I think it's already been long enough for me to warrant a short playthrough at least.
InfiniteWarrior
Hunter
Way better, I agree, but they all look the same to me since the restrictions were put into place. At least, I keep seeing the same POIs over and over and over again, regardless of map size and am wondering how many, if any, of the hundreds are never to be seen again.
Uncle Al
Survivor
I certainly see a strong argument for having quest rewards be only cash. In addition to making them less good, it would make their value self correcting once 3.0 comes in. I'm assuming there are going to be some economy modification options for buy and sell prices.
The other factor that makes quests a little too attractive is loot being fairly homogenous across different POI types. You can find just about anything anywhere, which reduces the negative impact of going where you're told rather than picking the type of structure you loot.
I appreciate theres a difficult balance question there, to avoid a situation where the vast majority of POIs are undesirable from a loot perspective, but I do think it could be tweaked a bit. Maybe having some loot containers that are about equal in value to the 'sealed crates' but completely random, to replace the sealed crates in houses etc. might help. I think sealed crates could be made a little more reliable too, maybe 1 guaranteed approprate magazine in addition to their current contents.
Currently random POI loot + a quest reward usually has as good or better chance of getting you what you want than targetting a POI specifically for food/tools/weapons/whatever your current most pressing need is.
Refering to your question "Maybe it's just too small to get acceptable results?" I think "acceptable" is a map with all biomes and all traders, as all biomes and a trader in each biome is mandatory now, and maybe at least one town. Nothing else seems to be essential, no lakes or hills, not even a city. And such an acceptable map is possible even with the current RWG, and even could be made guaranteed by adding this crude pseudo code routine:
-----------------------
for 30 tries:
do a RWG map
repeat if all traders are in it
If still not all traders in it, tell the users his parameters are too far off for RWG to generate a valid map, does he accept to have an invalid map?
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Also the minimal setting for flatness could be increased the smaller a map is to ensure more successes. Also the RWG could be changed so a trader is not necessarily located beside a town.
It's RWG they'd have to modify to ensure all of them appear, but the trader odd job system appears to have been tied to it for some unknown reason. As for regardless of biomes, I much preferred the traders randomized myself. It was like a box of chocolates. You never knew who you were gonna get.
Unknown reason? I would say their story is the reason. Someone from TFP said a few years ago (AFAIK) that they are not sure how much of the story will also be added to RWG but they will try to add it. If we consider that a big part of the story will probably be just choosing one of the factions and killing the head of the other and lots of bandits with it, that seems entirely possible, with a few mandatory bandit settlements and the current quest system.
And with the importance of RWG nowadays compared to Navezgane it seems highly desirable for TFP to do this, even if I misremember that statement.
Now, TFP surely doesn't want to make 2 versions of the game, one with the biome progression and one with it ripped out (makes the code more complicated). So even if someone decides to not do that story, he will still get the mandatory biome progression.
Except if TFP sees it as a big enough feature of the new sandbox mode to really make that effort.
Once you've got a cooking pot, the answer is always magazines. Which is a problem, imo. But magazines are the only loot that is truly worth targetting. Anything else, you'll just pull randomly, usually much more than you'll need.
Unless they make things strictly not drop in certain types of pois.
But I'm only ever going to need 12 Steel Tool Parts, 6 Melee Weapon Parts, some number of armor parts (honestly, no idea, I never bother to craft armor any more) and maybe a couple dozen ranged weapon parts (unless I want to craft turrets, and then I'll need a couple more.) Nothing else really has any value, as you can get it more efficiently in other ways than doing POIs.