What happened to 4k maps?

[MiTHMoN]

It feels like not that long ago we had pregen04k01 and 04k02 (or whatever they were called), and now they're gone and the smallest size option in vanilla is 6k. What's up with that?

4k was the perfect map size for solo or small-team play, and I don't understand why it was removed. My favourite pregen map, across all versions, was a 4k map. Had 6 traders (1 of each, and 2 joels in wasteland), and the POIs you got were varied enough and important.

Playing larger maps it's just... You skip most POIs. You drive passed whole areas of buildings. There's a 5km drive from one trader to another when you want to visit specific biome traders.

Even Navesgane, which is a 6k map, is atrociously empty. Even going from the wasteland Joel to the bottom-left section of the wasteland city is a fair distance. I think last time I played Navesgane, I built my base a little south of Trader Jen, right at the border of Burnt/Desert/Wasteland, to have some variety and better access to multiple traders, but even doing that means you're ages from Hugh, and still a fair distance from Rekt and Joel.

My ideal would be one big continuous city in a 4k map size that spans seemlessly across all the biomes. And to achieve that I'd have to use some custom map generation mods... Like I get vanilla won't be perfect for anyone, but I just don't get why they'd remove the option for arguably the best map size from the game. 3k maps didn't generate enough towns/cities, so 4k was the perfect sweet spot, with good POI density but not too big, so downloads/joining was quick, and less resource strain for running servers.

 

[meganoth]

It feels like not that long ago we had pregen04k01 and 04k02 (or whatever they were called), and now they're gone and the smallest size option in vanilla is 6k. What's up with that?

4k was the perfect map size for solo or small-team play, and I don't understand why it was removed. My favourite pregen map, across all versions, was a 4k map. Had 6 traders (1 of each, and 2 joels in wasteland), and the POIs you got were varied enough and important.

Playing larger maps it's just... You skip most POIs. You drive passed whole areas of buildings. There's a 5km drive from one trader to another when you want to visit specific biome traders.

Even Navesgane, which is a 6k map, is atrociously empty. Even going from the wasteland Joel to the bottom-left section of the wasteland city is a fair distance. I think last time I played Navesgane, I built my base a little south of Trader Jen, right at the border of Burnt/Desert/Wasteland, to have some variety and better access to multiple traders, but even doing that means you're ages from Hugh, and still a fair distance from Rekt and Joel.

My ideal would be one big continuous city in a 4k map size that spans seemlessly across all the biomes. And to achieve that I'd have to use some custom map generation mods... Like I get vanilla won't be perfect for anyone, but I just don't get why they'd remove the option for arguably the best map size from the game. 3k maps didn't generate enough towns/cities, so 4k was the perfect sweet spot, with good POI density but not too big, so downloads/joining was quick, and less resource strain for running servers.

Can you explain why you can't just generate a new 4k map?

(Is this a console problem? I assumed console would have random world generation just like PC only with a limit do smaller maps)

 

[MiTHMoN]

Can you explain why you can't just generate a new 4k map?

(Is this a console problem? I assumed console would have random world generation just like PC only with a limit do smaller maps)

I can generate a new 4k map, and that's what I ended up doing (I also edited the .xml so I could get the map to have more city, and manually went in in world edit and added some specific POIs), but that is effort that 99% of players aren't going to put in.

The problem is, the best pregen map I've seen on this game no longer exists as a pregen. There are no 4k pregen maps anymore.

The problem with generating your own maps is, you aren't guaranteed to get a balanced map, you aren't guaranteed to get at least 1 of each trader. If you want to play solo, and discuss your gameplay with someone else, you're not going to be on the same map as them. Also, it means hosting a server you need to figure out which map to generate.

To me, the whole point of pregen maps is for a simple, fairly balanced, and repeatable experience, that's also easy to set up without much effort.

A lot of players end their playthrough when they've got no more progression goals to hit. So we're talking like, 75% of the playthrough is pre-motorcycle/4x4, and 25% is using motorcycle/4x4. If you start reaching the point where, (guesstimating) 2/3 of your playthrough you've had fueled vehicles, you are really over-exhausting the playthrough, and that's where I've seen players burn out on the game and end up not touching it for months or years.

Obviously there exists some rare players who just spend weeks building and sticking to one playthrough for hundreds of days, and maybe they're the players who would prefer 16k maps, so they can eventually visit every part of the map.

But I think most, probably the vast majority of players, wouldn't even visit every area of a 4k map in a playthrough. And so using a map bigger than 4k (keep in mind, 6k is over twice as big as a 4k, and 8k is four times as big as 4k) will just extend travel times. And long travel times aren't fun.

 

[seven]

After the new trader progression system was added, there was a problem with smaller maps not always including all the traders. 2 of the 4k pregen maps included in 1.x were missing a trader, which broke progression. They haven't included 4k maps since then. I don't know if this was ever fixed.

 

[MiTHMoN]

After the new trader progression system was added, there was a problem with smaller maps not always including all the traders. 2 of the 4k pregen maps included in 1.x were missing a trader, which broke progression. They haven't included 4k maps since then. I don't know if this was ever fixed.

I would have imagined that the whole point of pregen maps is to hand-pick maps that do actually have 1 of each trader? The 4k map I played had 6 traders (2 joels), so it had at least 1 of each.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Generating a random map is something 99% can do. Pregen maps are randomly generated maps. PREviously GENerated, those aren´t handmade maps.

Every randomly generated map has one of each trader as long as you don´t put the percentages of a biome too low.

Installing the big cities mod is also something many people can do easily, same for custom POI´s, not placing them where you want, but there is several POI packs that you install as a mod that are then put in the random gen same as vanilla POI´s.

 

[meganoth]

I can generate a new 4k map, and that's what I ended up doing (I also edited the .xml so I could get the map to have more city, and manually went in in world edit and added some specific POIs), but that is effort that 99% of players aren't going to put in.

The problem is, the best pregen map I've seen on this game no longer exists as a pregen. There are no 4k pregen maps anymore.

The problem with generating your own maps is, you aren't guaranteed to get a balanced map, you aren't guaranteed to get at least 1 of each trader. If you want to play solo, and discuss your gameplay with someone else, you're not going to be on the same map as them. Also, it means hosting a server you need to figure out which map to generate.

To me, the whole point of pregen maps is for a simple, fairly balanced, and repeatable experience, that's also easy to set up without much effort.

A lot of players end their playthrough when they've got no more progression goals to hit. So we're talking like, 75% of the playthrough is pre-motorcycle/4x4, and 25% is using motorcycle/4x4. If you start reaching the point where, (guesstimating) 2/3 of your playthrough you've had fueled vehicles, you are really over-exhausting the playthrough, and that's where I've seen players burn out on the game and end up not touching it for months or years.

Obviously there exists some rare players who just spend weeks building and sticking to one playthrough for hundreds of days, and maybe they're the players who would prefer 16k maps, so they can eventually visit every part of the map.

But I think most, probably the vast majority of players, wouldn't even visit every area of a 4k map in a playthrough. And so using a map bigger than 4k (keep in mind, 6k is over twice as big as a 4k, and 8k is four times as big as 4k) will just extend travel times. And long travel times aren't fun.

I fully agree with one point: The convenience of easily transfering savegames to servers.

A trader missing though would be an RWG bug that has to be fixed if it hasn't been done already.

You are just assuming that a 4k map is what everyone wants. I agree that a 8k map often feels too big for SP, but 6k may be a good compromise. Consider, 6k may be twice as much area as 4k but the average or largest distances are still only 50% more.

I also disagree that clicking 2-3 buttons to generate a map is something that is over the head of a player. Before A18 or A19 there were no pregen maps at all and I never heard of anyone complaining about basic map generation being too complicated, except when people wanted to search for specific maps they liked.

 

[murky water]

Generating a random map is something 99% can do. Pregen maps are randomly generated maps. PREviously GENerated, those aren´t handmade maps.

Every randomly generated map has one of each trader as long as you don´t put the percentages of a biome too low.

Installing the big cities mod is also something many people can do easily, same for custom POI´s, not placing them where you want, but there is several POI packs that you install as a mod that are then put in the random gen same as vanilla POI´s.

pregen seems absolutely worthless then. what is the point of a busted map someone else made? also as someone who playes a looot of 3k and rarely 4k maps i can tell you right now the percentage doesnt really mean anything. i can have a 40% wasteland map and still sometimes get 0 traders in the wasteland. size seems less relevant than road generation in smaller maps

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

pregen seems absolutely worthless then. what is the point of a busted map someone else made? also as someone who playes a looot of 3k and rarely 4k maps i can tell you right now the percentage doesnt really mean anything. i can have a 40% wasteland map and still sometimes get 0 traders in the wasteland. size seems less relevant than road generation in smaller maps

A lot of people prefer to play on known maps.

I haven´t done any small maps since 2.1 but before that i would always get a trader in each biome. And as said before, if it happens then it is a bug. There is always supposed to be one trader per biome generated, which can be ofc a bug with road generation if you don´t get one.

 

[murky water]

except i am in a group of four and all of us get this. the generator even has a warning right on it saying that using the generator on any setting but default can lead to the game not properly generating traders. if it is a bug it is a known and accounted for bug

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Well i just did 4 maps in 4k. All had every vanilla trader plus some of the Age of Oblivion (overhaul mod) specific traders like the vehicle trader and elite traders. Used the default settings in the generator. What might help is reducing the amount of hills and mountains.

 

[meganoth]

Well i just did 4 maps in 4k. All had every vanilla trader plus some of the Age of Oblivion (overhaul mod) specific traders like the vehicle trader and elite traders. Used the default settings in the generator. What might help is reducing the amount of hills and mountains.

Not quite conclusive, the overhaul mod could have changed RWG settings to make more traders spawn

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Well then it must be a new thing. During 2.1 i made some 4K vanilla maps and they all had at least one trader in each biome. Mostly a default settings, but less hills and mountains.

 

[MiTHMoN]

Generating a random map is something 99% can do. Pregen maps are randomly generated maps. PREviously GENerated, those aren´t handmade maps.

I didn't say "hand made", I said "hand-pick"ed. It's important to understand the difference.

You are just assuming that a 4k map is what everyone wants. I agree that a 8k map often feels too big for SP, but 6k may be a good compromise. Consider, 6k may be twice as much area as 4k but the average or largest distances are still only 50% more.

I also disagree that clicking 2-3 buttons to generate a map is something that is over the head of a player. Before A18 or A19 there were no pregen maps at all and I never heard of anyone complaining about basic map generation being too complicated, except when people wanted to search for specific maps they liked.

I joined a peer-to-peer playthrough with some people who are new to the game, and the host chose Navezgane, just because it was the first choice that came up. New players literally do not have a reference point to compare to. They built their (our) base near Trader Rekt.

Diersville (the forest town East of Trader Rekt) in Navezgane is ~500 meters. Anecdotally that is a long distance for a new player with a bicycle. Even further before you get the bicycle. Getting quests from Rekt might give a couple (maybe 1-3 per tier per day) quests at a "reasonable" distance, up to say 800m, but a lot of them are like 1.2km+, which I (and these new players) just do not engage with. If our closest quest is 1.2km away when we have a bicycle, we just wait until the trader's quest resets the next day and try again.

If I remember correctly, Hugh is 1.6km from Rekt, and Bob is 1.6km from Jen, and Rekt and Jen are ~500m apart.

We get to Bob, and the closest tier-3 quest he had to offer me was 900m away, across the river. That is a long distance.

Random gen or pregen worlds, you might get 76m, 282m, that kind of distance, for early quests from Rekt. Sub-300m distances are good, they feel good. 300-800 is acceptable, but not as enjoyable. 2.8km quest distance is an absolute "no".

I like that the 2.6 Navezgane map is different from when I last played it (maybe 2.0?), but Navezgane is an example of distances that are too far. So, from that you could either go "okay, Navezgane has too little density, let's just make a 6k map with more density", or you could go "let's take Navezgane and squish it down to be a 4k map".

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

So you basically want to rush the game for no reason? 900m isn´t a long distance not even when having no bicycle. Make 5K maps, reduce mountains and hills and you are good.

There is no guarantee right now for all traders to appear on a default settings 4K vanilla map in 2.6. @meganoth Just tested it and 2 out of 5 maps missed a trader. However i got 5 out 5 traders on 4K maps with reduced hills and mountains and fewer lakes and fewer rivers.

 

[meganoth]

So you basically want to rush the game for no reason? 900m isn´t a long distance not even when having no bicycle. Make 5K maps, reduce mountains and hills and you are good.

There is no guarantee right now for all traders to appear on a default settings 4K vanilla map in 2.6. @meganoth Just tested it and 2 out of 5 maps missed a trader. However i got 5 out 5 traders on 4K maps with reduced hills and mountains and fewer lakes and fewer rivers.

Thanks for testing this.

This means that TFP really should add one or two 4k pregen maps. I would guess the guy who creates the pregen map doesn't know or forgot about the problem with 4k and traders

 

[MiTHMoN]

I'm not sure if The Fun Pimps gathers data on what map sizes are being used, but I've had a fair few playthroughs in my time, and friends that wanted to play on big maps for this feeling of having lots of POIs, and then went on to realize they didn't like the big maps (long travel distances, longer loading screens, and we never even visit most of the map).

I can honestly say I have never visited every questable POI on a given map, and I've never seen or heard of anyone else doing so.

So you basically want to rush the game for no reason? 900m isn´t a long distance not even when having no bicycle.

Relative to what? What are you comparing to?

Other survival/crafting games that are popular don't have quests where you go to Point A to pick up a quest, go to Point B to complete the quest, then go back to Point A for a reward. I haven't seen that in games like Minecraft, Valheim, ARK, Conan Exiles, Grounded, Rust, etc.

Games that are open-world with these kinds of quests don't have (in-game) daily quest limits and trader closing times. For example, WoW, Destiny, Albion Online, Runescape, Guild Wars 2, Borderlands series, etc.

The only games I can think of off the top of my head that do have trader closing times as games such as Stardew Valley, Dinkum, Coral Island, Animal Crossing (I think), and Palia.

I just googled how long a day is in Stardew Valley, and the ai says 12.6 minutes. That gives you time to go out to where you want to go, do your activity, and get back to your "base" in 12 minutes. As far as I know for default vanilla settings, 7DTD has 60 minute days, 18 hours daylight, so that's 45 minutes to access the trader per day. If you match the pacing (travelling to, doing activity, travelling back) between Stardew Valley and 7DTD, that's roughly 4 "quests" per day on 7DTD.

I jumped on single-player 7DTD to see how long 900m actually takes, and all the first trader Rekt's I tried offered under-800 and over-1,200, so it was difficult to find a 900m quest to begin with. Second Rekt; under-600 and over-1,500.

I finally found a 853m quest. Took 5 minutes to walk there (4 minutes 53 sec), and took 2 min 45 sec to run back (sprinting, used 2 jumps to get over fences, cost about 4 hunger 5 thirst). That is no-distractions, just beeline, no buffs/debuffs, 100 max stamina. I just tested sprinting as far as possible in a direction away from the trader for 3 minutes, and got ~1,050m (5 hunger 6 thirst).

There are games and sections of games where the fun comes from the logistics, such as MudRunner or mining in Valheim, but those games aren't 7DTD. In MudRunner you'd sometimes have to struggle getting across muddy rivers and end up getting bogged, and need to bring another vehicle to get your first vehicle free. That's immersion, problem-solving, investment, precise-controls, logistics, planning. For Valheim, if you follow the "can't take ores through portals" rule, you often have to take sea voyages back to your base just to be able to smelt your ores, and that means dealing with navigation, wind direction, storms, sea serpents, etc.

In contrast, holding W (on PC) for 3 or 5 minutes just isn't fun. Sure, during normal gameplay you aren't just beelining (I tested getting to the 853m quest flag, and doing it "normal gameplay" style for me on Scav difficulty at level 1, it took 9 minutes (24 hunger, 23 thirst) by including looting/combat/etc).

So what am I expected to be doing? Should it take me 3 minutes of full-tilt sprinting with no distractions, or 9 minutes with gameplay distractions, to get to the quest flag that's 853m away from trader? Took me 80 seconds of combat, ignoring loot, to clear the tier 1 POI using a level 1 bone knife (no skill points spent), for reference. Took 4 mins 30 sec in total to do combat and full looting.

And that's only 850-900m away from trader, not even mentioning the quests offered that are 1.2km, 1.5km, 1.8km, 2.8km etc.

So, for a tier-1 quest 853m away, taking it slow took me (9 minutes there, 4.5 minutes at the location, 6.75 minutes travelling back to trader, for a total of 20 minutes 15 seconds (47 hunger, 45 thirst), and taking it lightning fast would have taken me a hypothetical (2.75 there, 80 sec to main loot, 2.75 sec back, let's estimate 40 sec getting back out of the POI, for a total of) ~7 mins 30 sec.

That's ~22% and ~26% of the total time actually at the quest POI, and ~75% spent in travel.

So whether you're rushing it or taking it slow, just my personal opinion that 75% of the gameplay being travel time when you are specifically "going questing" is a little rough. So, like I said, 800m or under is "acceptable", but shorter distances are preferrable.

Just for reference, I took a quest 70m away, and even fully encumbered and getting as distracted as possible, it only took 50 sec to get to the flag.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

That only applies to early game and only on Navezgane. Once you get a bicycle things speed up a lot, minibike is easy to get quite fast as well. Also if you always have short distances you will end up spending the time you saved looking for tree stumps for example.

Kinda ironic how you spend a lot of time writing a unnecessary wall of text basically just saying your are a bit impatient.

 

[meganoth]

Navezgane was created a long time ago before quests were in the game. I agree that it isn't adopted to a quest-centric gameplay (and probably never will without destroying its uniqueness). Its appeal is that it is handcrafted, the best map if you are into exploration and in future will probably be the only map to have the full story.

I wouldn't do a quest on foot that is 800m away, at least not as the only thing. Instead I would loot POIs around me without a quest. Or loot POIs on the way to the quest POI as well (and drop most loot in a few well placed containers on the way).

Comparing this game to other games makes sense only to a degree. Comparing with Valheim for example you don't have quests to walk to, but even with well placed teleporters I wasted whole evenings with corpse runs. And generally I want to play games that differ in their gameplay, not games that all adopt the same solution to gameplay even if there is one optimal one.

What I have critizised for years was that the trader rewards are too good, which makes many players forget that you simply can loot without a quest. TFP has already decreased the rewards, it was much worse in previous alphas. As long as players feel they need to travel 900m to a tier1 POI one can argue the rewards are still a bit too high. It is just the combination of XP, reward and reputation that is too much. IMO making people group up would still be achieved with the reward halfed again.

 

[Rotor]

I don't quest, but I don't like the rtb questing system in general. On games where I quest, I like quest that are found in the environment. I.e. you are walking along in the woods, and you find a talking rabbit.