Suggestions Regarding the Map

I believe the two biggest barriers to getting infinite worlds are, first, that TFP has no plans to create additional biomes. This game has five biomes. That's it. Five biomes will never be enough variety to make an infinite world work well. Before pushing for infinite worlds, you have to first change TFP's mind about limiting the world to five biomes and good luck with that.

The second obstacle is consoles not being able to run a stable infinite world ever. That's the reality and that is where this dream dies. Sorry for the reality check.

But....if you can convince TFP to double the number of biomes and develop a major exclusive feature for PC that consoles can't have after TFP suffered through years of reading complaints from customers of the Telltale version that their version was different from PC, then maybe you've got a shot.
 
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Five biomes will never be enough variety to make an infinite world work well.
I don't see how these are related? Any amount of biomes would necessarily repeat on an infinite map. From the other direction, any map can be colored with 4 colors such that no two neighbors get the same color; so even if you'd necessitate that the map must have some specific features, the 5th is extra. And would "doubling" change a thing?

What am I missing?
 
I don't see how these are related? Any amount of biomes would necessarily repeat on an infinite map. From the other direction, any map can be colored with 4 colors such that no two neighbors get the same color; so even if you'd necessitate that the map must have some specific features, the 5th is extra. And would "doubling" change a thing?

What am I missing?
Maybe nothing. Could be different biomes with unique features are uninteresting to you. In my opinion, it is what makes Minecraft's infinitely generated world work so well. Yes, you would still have repetition but you would have to travel farther in order to experience that repetition. With 10 biomes or more on our current largest map size the biomes would have to be much smaller area-wise. But with 10 or more biomes at the current biome size for the largest current map size we would need a much larger map aka infinitely generated in order to fit them all in. Plus you could play an entire game and not ever see 1-2 of the biomes because of the direction you chose to travel but then in a following playthrough you might find those biomes.

Swamp (one block deep water everywhere with sleepers)
Plains
Flooded City (First 1-2 stories of buildings under water)
Cavernous (Cave networks abound here)
Maple Forest (split the current forest into this and the following)
Pine Forest
Burnt Forest
Desert
Mesa (more mountainous and colorful with deep canyons and tall mesas)
Wasteland
Snow

Yes, those would repeat on an infinite map for people traveling 20km but they would have to travel 20km to find them. And maybe the flooded city and cavernous biomes are rare so they have to be found and repeat much less often if at all.
 
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Could be different biomes with unique features are uninteresting to you.
You were presenting it as a blocking issue to implementing infinite worlds; this has very little to do with my interests, or yours. As a thought experiment, could we produce an infinite world of just forest biome? Obviously yes. Variance would obviously come from something else; but it could still make for great feeling worlds, especially if the world gen properly supported it: see a river, and you can follow it wherever it leads, be it mountains upstream, or a lake downstream.
 
I’ve used Nitrogen’s maps, and they are indeed better generated than TFP’s, but there aren’t enough rivers and lakes. This is probably due to the map size; if I were to add a large number of rivers and lakes, it would reduce the amount of land.
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I assume you’ve seen the A15 wilderness layout above; I want to achieve that kind of effect—huge lakes and rivers. And I want to be able to trace the rivers
Yes, I have played A15 and the prior 8, So I got to experience the changes as they happened.
Archived almost each of the versions 82 vanilla so far, and 30 modded from then until now and play
Round robin going through them to get Ideas for personal changes.

As @Riamus posted Teragon can make the rivers and lakes also, I use it with a map I created to fine tune
the details of the terrain, once I have my layout as I like.

The reason I referred to Nitrogen is because, of what you posted as your desire, and the pictures you
presented. The way for you to get closer to what you want, is through personal customization. Starting
at the terrain, you would need to use an image editor to adjust the grayscale, that will give the elevation
differences. Then for the large waterways and bodies of water, you would have to drop the grayscale
below a specific height, and the game will auto populate, it with water. They never removed the ability
people just stopped using it as much. For mountains, to get erosion effects there are two main ways that
I have seen so far. Get a geo height map, Or I then would defer to Teragon. But the more custom and away
form the default, the more caveates you must be willing to accept. Meaning, the more tris details on the
top landform, the more you have to adjust your own setting to balance load, the second which is inescapable
is time.

Once you get a land mass, then you can progress to topological aesthetics, to the look and feel, a lot of that
comes from learning and adjusting the xml values. There is fog intensity and color, storm particles and timing,
Tree and decorative meaning block layout probability. Then you would have entity population.

Biome layout Is paint preference, you can paint it any way you choose, following altitude in which ever order
you like meaning Snow forest burnt desert waste from top to bottom, split it into quadrants with all five blended,
or autoassign, it is only limited by you and the time you are willing to invest in doing it. Since I love it, I just reduce
the screen and watch a movie simultaneously while setting it up. But for a one button end all be all, it probably will
not happen, and it became clear with the last explanation, I received from @faatal in the diary.

Pois, once you learn the engine rules, regarding grayscale population, then painting the base terrain at specific
shades will either render large cluster groups, small cluster groups, individuals, or make it open wilderness separation.
Roads and road smoothing, are gradients, they can be laid on top, be rough or smooth, or cut swathes through terrain.

Entities, = timing configs, per area.

Seemles biomes, Is painting and experimenting, Just decide your blending distance, and fractalize the the image, Paint
the two merging biome colors, overlay and combine the layers, and repeat at each of the borders, the game will do the
rest, by populating mixing and matching the topsoil decor. It will also spawn mixed entitiy groups.
Then pick the spectrum you favor, and set it for all but the Wasteland to differentiate it.

Basically the way the game engine works is, what you put in is what you are going to get out, the more time the more
customized detail. On my 10k x 10k, I have all of the above, lakes that span the map, their diameter, up to 2 kilometers,
Traders in non standard biome config, land bridges, and it is split into two terrain areas diagonally, with varying poi
cluster sizes, overlooks to take in scenery, rough trails, and smooth roads. And entity spawn to support it. I have yet to
clear half of it yet, and I play sweep and clear. I always find an area along the way to a trader or another poi, that catches
my interest and I bivouac there, and spend some time, collecting a domesticating the area before I move on.

Grass If you want taller, just scale it. And add a light reduction to trees, cvar if it is daytime, to simulate hiding in the shade.
 
Maybe nothing. Could be different biomes with unique features are uninteresting to you. In my opinion, it is what makes Minecraft's infinitely generated world work so well. Yes, you would still have repetition but you would have to travel farther in order to experience that repetition. With 10 biomes or more on our current largest map size the biomes would have to be much smaller area-wise. But with 10 or more biomes at the current biome size for the largest current map size we would need a much larger map aka infinitely generated in order to fit them all in. Plus you could play an entire game and not ever see 1-2 of the biomes because of the direction you chose to travel but then in a following playthrough you might find those biomes.

Swamp (one block deep water everywhere with sleepers)
Plains
Flooded City (First 1-2 stories of buildings under water)
Cavernous (Cave networks abound here)
Maple Forest (split the current forest into this and the following)
Pine Forest
Burnt Forest
Desert
Mesa (more mountainous and colorful with deep canyons and tall mesas)
Wasteland
Snow

Yes, those would repeat on an infinite map for people traveling 20km but they would have to travel 20km to find them. And maybe the flooded city and cavernous biomes are rare so they have to be found and repeat much less often if at all.
You’re definitely painting a rosy picture, but it’s just too tempting. If TFP is willing to implement the ecosystems you’ve proposed, it will earn even higher praise. To be honest, I also think there aren’t enough ecosystems right now. I’d love to see the ecosystems you’ve proposed appear in the game and spread throughout the infinite world.
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You were presenting it as a blocking issue to implementing infinite worlds; this has very little to do with my interests, or yours. As a thought experiment, could we produce an infinite world of just forest biome? Obviously yes. Variance would obviously come from something else; but it could still make for great feeling worlds, especially if the world gen properly supported it: see a river, and you can follow it wherever it leads, be it mountains upstream, or a lake downstream.
Yes. That’s exactly how it feels—I can explore along the river and find a spot nestled between the mountains and the water to make my post-apocalyptic home. It feels amazing.
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I believe the two biggest barriers to getting infinite worlds are, first, that TFP has no plans to create additional biomes. This game has five biomes. That's it. Five biomes will never be enough variety to make an infinite world work well. Before pushing for infinite worlds, you have to first change TFP's mind about limiting the world to five biomes and good luck with that.

The second obstacle is consoles not being able to run a stable infinite world ever. That's the reality and that is where this dream dies. Sorry for the reality check.

But....if you can convince TFP to double the number of biomes and develop a major exclusive feature for PC that consoles can't have after TFP suffered through years of reading complaints from customers of the Telltale version that their version was different from PC, then maybe you've got a shot.
As long as someone is willing to propose an excellent plan, I don’t think TFP would turn down such an appealing change. I feel they lack a truly viable plan, as I haven’t seen any truly creative additions in the last few versions. So why not start with the ecosystem and map expansions? Otherwise, it seems to me that the game’s development has stalled at this point.
 
Yes, I have played A15 and the prior 8, So I got to experience the changes as they happened.
Archived almost each of the versions 82 vanilla so far, and 30 modded from then until now and play
Round robin going through them to get Ideas for personal changes.

As @Riamus posted Teragon can make the rivers and lakes also, I use it with a map I created to fine tune
the details of the terrain, once I have my layout as I like.

The reason I referred to Nitrogen is because, of what you posted as your desire, and the pictures you
presented. The way for you to get closer to what you want, is through personal customization. Starting
at the terrain, you would need to use an image editor to adjust the grayscale, that will give the elevation
differences. Then for the large waterways and bodies of water, you would have to drop the grayscale
below a specific height, and the game will auto populate, it with water. They never removed the ability
people just stopped using it as much. For mountains, to get erosion effects there are two main ways that
I have seen so far. Get a geo height map, Or I then would defer to Teragon. But the more custom and away
form the default, the more caveates you must be willing to accept. Meaning, the more tris details on the
top landform, the more you have to adjust your own setting to balance load, the second which is inescapable
is time.

Once you get a land mass, then you can progress to topological aesthetics, to the look and feel, a lot of that
comes from learning and adjusting the xml values. There is fog intensity and color, storm particles and timing,
Tree and decorative meaning block layout probability. Then you would have entity population.

Biome layout Is paint preference, you can paint it any way you choose, following altitude in which ever order
you like meaning Snow forest burnt desert waste from top to bottom, split it into quadrants with all five blended,
or autoassign, it is only limited by you and the time you are willing to invest in doing it. Since I love it, I just reduce
the screen and watch a movie simultaneously while setting it up. But for a one button end all be all, it probably will
not happen, and it became clear with the last explanation, I received from @faatal in the diary.

Pois, once you learn the engine rules, regarding grayscale population, then painting the base terrain at specific
shades will either render large cluster groups, small cluster groups, individuals, or make it open wilderness separation.
Roads and road smoothing, are gradients, they can be laid on top, be rough or smooth, or cut swathes through terrain.

Entities, = timing configs, per area.

Seemles biomes, Is painting and experimenting, Just decide your blending distance, and fractalize the the image, Paint
the two merging biome colors, overlay and combine the layers, and repeat at each of the borders, the game will do the
rest, by populating mixing and matching the topsoil decor. It will also spawn mixed entitiy groups.
Then pick the spectrum you favor, and set it for all but the Wasteland to differentiate it.

Basically the way the game engine works is, what you put in is what you are going to get out, the more time the more
customized detail. On my 10k x 10k, I have all of the above, lakes that span the map, their diameter, up to 2 kilometers,
Traders in non standard biome config, land bridges, and it is split into two terrain areas diagonally, with varying poi
cluster sizes, overlooks to take in scenery, rough trails, and smooth roads. And entity spawn to support it. I have yet to
clear half of it yet, and I play sweep and clear. I always find an area along the way to a trader or another poi, that catches
my interest and I bivouac there, and spend some time, collecting a domesticating the area before I move on.

Grass If you want taller, just scale it. And add a light reduction to trees, cvar if it is daytime, to simulate hiding in the shade.
Thank you to all the community members who suggested the Teragon solution; it has indeed partially resolved my current issue. However, it would be even better if TFP could be modified.
 
For a short period of time there was a module for direct player terrain
customizing in the rwgmixer.xml

This module was called vanilla2, it called for a dtm,png, Sarek, that could
replace, the raw grayscale, and would build a world based directly from
the image. I don't know if it was an easter egg, or an inhouse hack. But
it wasn't used very often, or it was overlooked, just going by not very many posts
acknowledging it.

The alternate was you could go into a world folder, remove the raw files or rename
them, post the Sarek file and get to see, an instant result. If you removed the poi
file, it would auto populate accorfing to the rules at that time.

You could write your name in the snow and it would build it for you.

Just a bit of trivia.
 
As long as someone is willing to propose an excellent plan, I don’t think TFP would turn down such an appealing change. I feel they lack a truly viable plan, as I haven’t seen any truly creative additions in the last few versions. So why not start with the ecosystem and map expansions? Otherwise, it seems to me that the game’s development has stalled at this point.
You have to understand that they are at the end of development. They have specific things they are trying to finish so the game can be completed. Beyond the specific large items (e.g. bandits) that they have planned, most updates going forward will have minimal new features/mechanics and will instead focus on optimizations, adjusting features and mechanics that need tweaked, etc. You aren't going to see huge changes like you would see years ago. If you're expecting a lot of big new features like you'd see in some service game like an MMO, that's not what you'll be seeing here. There are still some large items like bandits, but we aren't likely to see much more than what they've already told us is coming in terms of large new features/mechanics. It has nothing to do with not having a plan. They do have a plan, but the plan is to finish the game, not keep adding new things forever.
 
You were presenting it as a blocking issue to implementing infinite worlds; this has very little to do with my interests, or yours. As a thought experiment, could we produce an infinite world of just forest biome? Obviously yes. Variance would obviously come from something else; but it could still make for great feeling worlds, especially if the world gen properly supported it: see a river, and you can follow it wherever it leads, be it mountains upstream, or a lake downstream.
I think that would be fun once or twice but games like this encourage multiple playthroughs and if they ALL involved following a river through one biome type it wouldn’t be as interesting as having many biomes to discover.
 
why not start with the ecosystem
Could definitely do with a once over, if there's time and budget. Could also use an audio overhaul. I sincerely hope they don't plan to "ship" the finished game with saplings making the sound of a Redwood going over when you chop it down, for example. They've been replacing placeholders for a while, so I hope that's on the docket.
 
Regarding the cities problem... why don't you just generate a map with a very low setting for towns and cities? :unsure:
Have you ever tried? I mean... custom maps are available for a reason.
Cities in themselves are not the problem, but that they offer more value compared to anything else. There simply needs to be a reason to spend time exploring. Currently there isn't. Everything is given to you as a map marker and you don't even need to find the next trader anymore. Some of that can be QoL for some but it indeed does detract from exploration. A more effective solution would be to offer tangible reasons to explore the wilderness whether if be events, loot, etc.
You have to understand that they are at the end of development. They have specific things they are trying to finish so the game can be completed. Beyond the specific large items (e.g. bandits) that they have planned, most updates going forward will have minimal new features/mechanics and will instead focus on optimizations, adjusting features and mechanics that need tweaked, etc. You aren't going to see huge changes like you would see years ago. If you're expecting a lot of big new features like you'd see in some service game like an MMO, that's not what you'll be seeing here. There are still some large items like bandits, but we aren't likely to see much more than what they've already told us is coming in terms of large new features/mechanics. It has nothing to do with not having a plan. They do have a plan, but the plan is to finish the game, not keep adding new things forever.
You say this as they are literally redesigning a large portion of their mechanics based on player feedback.

But, again, I don't think you need infinite worlds to make the game fun. The largest size map feels large enough. If anything they can add a smaller biome map generation option when it comes to biome dispersion where biomes will be in smaller clusters like the old days.
 
I think that would be fun once or twice but games like this encourage multiple playthroughs and if they ALL involved following a river through one biome type it wouldn’t be as interesting as having many biomes to discover.
You're not getting my objection, I guess; whatever. I technically agree with what you say here; but it feels like a hostile misread of my river -example. The river was meant to point to an RWG that can generate good continuous landscape over vast distances, logical rivers flowing downhill instead of the sausage-stamp-lakes the current one operates on. Not a defining feature of every experience as a mandatory landmark to follow; just there, as landscape.

Such an RWG could be expected to dynamically produce couple of those new biomes you propose, from the current assets - with no requirement for new texture space etc. At Least "Cavernous" and "Mesas" sound from your description like they could be fulfilled with heightmap use; like the mountain stamps of the current game .. caverns would perhaps need to have another tunnel generator, or massive amounts of subway-style cavern-POI building. But either wouldn't really require new resources.

The water-based ones, that depends on your requirements; "two block flood" and swamp both sound like we could get 60% there just with placement rules. But to look good, they'd probably need some specific assets ... not necessarily separate "biome textures" but some block types and textures. Either or, these too could be just "generator made" -biomes; added to the game at map generation from current assets.

Splitting the current forest back into two... might also be fine with just the current assets. Another RWG setting where it'll use more of the pines etc... from reality, a pine forest should prolly have a non-grassy floor type; but it's not like this would be absolutely mandatory, as the current forest is pine forest...

Soo... I would hazard a guess that it's not in any way impossible to get you your 10 biomes, "just" by redesigning the RWG.. while there, make the world infinite, still seems like a completely separate thing :P
 
As long as someone is willing to propose an excellent plan, I don’t think TFP would turn down such an appealing change. I feel they lack a truly viable plan, as I haven’t seen any truly creative additions in the last few versions. So why not start with the ecosystem and map expansions? Otherwise, it seems to me that the game’s development has stalled at this point.

Sure, "excellence" as determined by TFP. They literally own the right to decide.

Disagree on your perception about your characterizations of their development effort and suggest that being insulting (not creative; stalled) doesn't help perceptions of suggestions. "You all suck, so here's my brilliant idea to save your game" is not a compelling sales pitch.
 
Sure, "excellence" as determined by TFP. They literally own the right to decide.

Disagree on your perception about your characterizations of their development effort and suggest that being insulting (not creative; stalled) doesn't help perceptions of suggestions. "You all suck, so here's my brilliant idea to save your game" is not a compelling sales pitch.
If you don’t know how to speak politely, you don’t need to reply. The comments you post reflect only your own interpretation. I can only look down on someone like you who twists the meaning of others’ words.
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What we’re discussing is that the current versions no longer feature any groundbreaking innovations. This has been misinterpreted by some as an insult to the development team. I think the fact that you’ve interpreted it this way is an insult to everyone.
 
You say this as they are literally redesigning a large portion of their mechanics based on player feedback.
Adjusting/tweaking things is something I mentioned. My response was related to what amounts to a redesign of RWG and how maps work, which isn't something that's likely to happen this late into development.

If you don’t know how to speak politely, you don’t need to reply. The comments you post reflect only your own interpretation. I can only look down on someone like you who twists the meaning of others’ words.
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What we’re discussing is that the current versions no longer feature any groundbreaking innovations. This has been misinterpreted by some as an insult to the development team. I think the fact that you’ve interpreted it this way is an insult to everyone.
I think I saw that you're using a translator, so maybe your wording isn't intentional, but the way you word things makes your posts sound insulting towards TFP, which is what was pointed out. If that's not intentional, you might look at how to change how you say things or use a different translator that might be better.

In any case, I explained why you're not going to see groundbreaking innovations this late in development (for the most part).
 
So, lost in translation. Got it. Moving on. :)

Picked it back up from initial launch in alpha with A21 and, while the layering on of RPG elements doesn't seem to be going over all that well with those who've been with it from the beginning, I think it's in a pretty good state, atm. I doubt the downtown performance issues will ever be wrestled to the ground, but it's the basics I'd be most worried about now, just to get it in the can, so to speak. And, by basic, I mean a few missing animations, replacement of placeholders and stuff like that. 3.0, 4.0 are most important now, I would think, but it could definitely use a once over of major systems when those are completed, including RWG, imo.

I still maintain A21's RWG was leaps and bounds better in the variety department as well as providing those mountain peak and valley views that weren't at all bad for Voxel. If I knew how to do it, I'd roll it back to A21 without the Neopolitan ice cream option and all that jazz, though I'm sure a good many appreciate the opportunity to specify which biome is dead center and won't give up options for all the tea in China.

I'd blame console for restricting the game as heavily as it has been restricted if that weren't passe.
 
I think the fact that you’ve interpreted it this way is an insult to everyone.

I think you've misinterpreted my comments. If there's translation involved then that's certainly understandable. My apologies if something I said didn't translate well.

What we’re discussing is that the current versions no longer feature any groundbreaking innovations.

What we're discussing is your assertion that there have not been any groundbreaking innovations. Discussion will naturally involve people with a different view.

I'm pointing out that you're trying to persuade people to do something and suggesting they are either incompetent or don't have the game's interest in mind. You should be able to see how that makes your message harder for the developers to hear.
 
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