They are bring a hybrid LBD!

Soulmonster said:
The thing is, the game is getting better and better so why care about when it will be "finished"? As long as they keep on improving a game that is already very good, then I have no reason to complain.
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agree to disagree...2.5 has the potential...if you look around inside/outside of these forums, you'd see that The smell system is liked...but, people wish they had put a little more thought into how it was implemented. a lot saying they experience lag in towns, I am having the same experience with stutter in towns.
with a 2.6 2.7 and a 2.8 left to go there is time to balance that stuff. So when do they finally get to work on 3.0 Bandit AI? I don't blame anyone who thinks "For as many times as they have put them off...they better be the best ■■■■ing AI anyone has ever seen."

You seem to be missing the point of that exchange you quoted...I didn't sign on for a never ending development cycle. You guys might have, but they resold this with dates. they gave themselves a year and a half...it is gone. I am guessing it will be ANOTHER 3 years at this current pace...maybe more. Do you disagree with that assessment? After years of doing something, most people get better at doing it...the management have not. (maybe THAT's why they hated LBD)
I do feel bad for the non management developers.They take a lot of heat for ■■■■ that is out of their control, they keep delivering what they were asked to do, Rick and Joel keep changing their minds. Those developers have coded at least 3 games worth by now...only to have to redo it. I am tired of that...(imo) you should be too, but, you do you.
 
HammerDano said:
Minecraft and other games like Rust are continuously being added to...yup...they add to the base game...they don't change the base game over and over...they add to what they had. It's a relationship THEY established from the start...that they would keep ADDING to the base game...not keeping taking away...not reworking...ADDING.
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I think that's a matter of perspective. I don't know Rust, but with Minecraft, combat has been changed a couple of times. For instance, you now have to wait for the cooldown timer on your attack if you want to hit for full power. Their changes to skeletons essentially force you to use a shield. There are probably more changes, but I've not really been into it in a while, so I've lost track.

The plane that is on fire, I forget its name, it very different. The End fight is different, indeed I hear The End itself is very different. They've changed around where all the different ores are found. It's a matter of opinion if those are improvements or regressions, but they are changes to the base game, IMO.
 
HammerDano said:
I didn't sign on for a never ending development cycle.
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This part is clear. It has been quite clear you didn't understand it was a never-ending development cycle and that the roadmap you saw wasn't clear to you, that 1.0 seemed like a signal of completion, and that their releasing for the consoles was also a sign of stability. I genuinely do regret you've had that experience. I wish there was a way to give you solace on this matter.

It doesn't change their methodology.
 
HammerDano said:
agree to disagree...2.5 has the potential...if you look around inside/outside of these forums, you'd see that The smell system is liked...but, people wish they had put a little more thought into how it was implemented. a lot saying they experience lag in towns, I am having the same experience with stutter in towns.
with a 2.6 2.7 and a 2.8 left to go there is time to balance that stuff. So when do they finally get to work on 3.0 Bandit AI? I don't blame anyone who thinks "For as many times as they have put them off...they better be the best ■■■■ing AI anyone has ever seen."

You seem to be missing the point of that exchange you quoted...I didn't sign on for a never ending development cycle. You guys might have, but they resold this with dates. they gave themselves a year and a half...it is gone. I am guessing it will be ANOTHER 3 years at this current pace...maybe more. Do you disagree with that assessment? After years of doing something, most people get better at doing it...the management have not. (maybe THAT's why they hated LBD)
I do feel bad for the non management developers.They take a lot of heat for ■■■■ that is out of their control, they keep delivering what they were asked to do, Rick and Joel keep changing their minds. Those developers have coded at least 3 games worth by now...only to have to redo it. I am tired of that...(imo) you should be too, but, you do you.
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I don't think anyone besides you care about your reasons for signing on. Yet you keep nagging about it. If you can’t enjoy a game that is in development, then don't play it. Like every normal human being. It's a trivial thing, not liking a game, yet you treat it as a huge, mystical and gross attack on you. As if paying a few bucks means you are owed enjoying the game. When will you ever tire over telling the world you made a mistake buying the game?
 
Personally, as long as the game is good. That is all that matters to me. Updates being released to fix problems, or add content to me is a positive thing. The pimp have made mistakes. But I still think they’re one of the best devs out there. What a great game. The 2.5 update and what I hear is coming in the future is amazing.
 
Very, very excited for the rework of LBD. I'd been advocating for a hybrid system since its removal and I think this is going to be a great thing.. but it goes deeper than that- The last half year or so it's felt like, at least to me, the Pimps have been more accepting and responsive to critical feedback of some parts of the game.. I like to think if this trend continues, most of my concerns will be addressed in vanilla. - Some trader nerfs, loot nerfs/reworking, maybe tweaking on the biome hazards [Haven't done enough playing this season to feel things out much]. Good feeling.
That said, I'm really dead set on the projected event system in 3.0, I'm not sure how impactful other design elements will be by comparison.. Funnily enough, I'm fairly excited for that new settings page getting worked on too. With as many settings as 7Days has and how all the little tweaks affect your run, it'll be be great to have a phat list to play with.
Optimism feels good.:cool:
 
Soulmonster said:
I don't think anyone besides you care about your reasons for signing on. Yet you keep nagging about it. If you can’t enjoy a game that is in development, then don't play it. Like every normal human being. It's a trivial thing, not liking a game, yet you treat it as a huge, mystical and gross attack on you. As if paying a few bucks means you are owed enjoying the game. When will you ever tire over telling the world you made a mistake buying the game?
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They put the game out with dates...just because you bought in years before they put dates on it, doesn't mean ■■■■ to me.
Am I wrong that it will still take years to get Bandits and Story Mode in the game? Nope.
So tell me why I am wrong to hound them for better communication and a faster pace?
You can keep on being annoyed bud...I am not going to stop expecting the management to get better.
 
HammerDano said:
They put the game out with dates...just because you bought in years before they put dates on it, doesn't mean ■■■■ to me.
Am I wrong that it will still take years to get Bandits and Story Mode in the game? Nope.
So tell me why I am wrong to hound them for better communication and a faster pace?
You can keep on being annoyed bud...I am not going to stop expecting the management to get better.
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I thought a few weeks ago you said something along the lines of you wouldn't complain about bandits and release dates 'till like next summer or something like that.
Story, probably, bandits, maybe not. None of us know how long things will take, never did, still don't. It could be next year, it could be sooner or later but that's not for any of us to determine, least of all you.
Nothing wrong for asking for communication, but it's not like we don't get a decent dripfeed. Faatal responds pretty regularly, if nothing else I'd think we should feel like our concerns are heard.
Personally, I hate to be hounded to work faster, if someone does that with me, I stop communicating with them.
How often has it been beneficial when someone hounded you to work faster?
 
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Soulmonster said:
Because you don't want to come across like a little baby crying over a game developer not working fast enough for you? Presumably, you are grown ■■■ man, act like it.
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I don't know. I'd say persistence is a virtue. His goal of improving communications may well be realized if he doesn't unintentionally become such a nag that they quit reading his posts.

What I would also say though is that expecting the Devs to change methods is unrealistic as is trying to significantly influence the rate of development. I don't think he has any ground to gain on those points.

At least that's my opinion from the cheap seats.
 
my perfect implementation is LBD as it typically has been + (rarish magazines) that an immediately give you the rest of the xp to lvl up in that skill.

treat them like they are now, but make them more rare. Basically allowing you to skip the grind of a single lvl up upon use.
 
HammerDano said:
They put the game out with dates...just because you bought in years before they put dates on it, doesn't mean ■■■■ to me.
Am I wrong that it will still take years to get Bandits and Story Mode in the game? Nope.
So tell me why I am wrong to hound them for better communication and a faster pace?
You can keep on being annoyed bud...I am not going to stop expecting the management to get better.
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This has become a digression from the topic of bringing back ‘learn by doing.’ Let’s all please stick to the topic of this thread.
 
warmer said:
my perfect implementation is LBD as it typically has been + (rarish magazines) that an immediately give you the rest of the xp to lvl up in that skill.

treat them like they are now, but make them more rare. Basically allowing you to skip the grind of a single lvl up upon use.
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I wouldn't want it to be just a way to get levels faster while making them rare. I do not like any form of LBD that requires you to craft X of something to level up crafting. I also don't like any form of LBD that requires you to use your weapon X times to level up the weapon or to jump up and down X times to level up parkour or any other repetitive task like that. If they want to make it so you can gain very small bonuses to your skill, with diminishing returns, that don't add a significant bonus, then that might be okay. For example, you could make your damage from a T2 Q3 weapon improve to almost the damage of a T2 Q4 weapon, but never quite reaching it. They could even allow that to apply to all future quality levels of that tier. So you might get the T2 Q3 to be roughly T2 Q3.9 and then when you replace the weapon with a T2 Q4, you still have the bonus, letting it be equivalent to T2 Q4.9. If you change tiers, whether or not that bonus applies would depend on whether or not the new tier was the same weapon. Going from wood to iron to steel could keep the same bonus, but going from pistol to SMG probably shouldn't. That could be okay because you'd gain that through normal play without having to grind it and it also doesn't really make it worth grinding it for people who are trying to rush the game.

In short, it should not require grinding to improve and should not allow the use of a lot of grinding as quickly as possible to rush end game "power" in whatever skill you're working on.
 
Jost Amman said:
But grinding is the very basis of LBD, so, basically, you're simply against LBD.
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Perhaps. How much repetition is grinding? If there are gaps, interruptions, or other objectives between those reps, can that help if feel less like a grind? The rate of increase and manner of learning could matter. I could see where that needs to become a configurable setting.

If we're talking about a melee weapon and for each hit on a zombie I get a 0.001 increase towards a skill going to 100, then I've got 100,000 zombies to kill to max it out. Is that good? Is that bad? How many zombies should I have to hit to max out? Do power attacks count as double? Do glancing blows count as half? Or, because I'm less skilled, do I get more glancing blows? Does the skill affect accuracy, damage, or both? Are there plateaus -- that is am I not able to power attack until I get to some level? Is it a skill specific to one weapon (clubs) or a skill shared by all melee weapons? Or, instead of building a skill from 0 to 100, am I building a skill from 0 to 5, where melee kills count towards taking a step from 0 to 1, such as killing your first zombie, then from 1 to 2 having killed 50?

Then, how do you balance these objectives against crafting, assuming crafting depends on magazines? And, what is balance? I mean, if you get to 5 in clubs in 5 days of play, but crafting clubs takes 100 days of play, then is that okay? That balance is going to be subjective and folks are going to weigh it with a variety of criteria including their play habits. Is "time to acquire" even the best way to compare learning between two systems?

Then I worry about skills that are less clear if they are LBD or not. For instance, I'm not sure Stealth is good as LBD. Certainly, real life might suggest that you learn stealth through the study of techniques, carefully packing your kit, the selection of clothing, and repetitive practice, but to me the big question is "what is fun game play?" Hitting the control key and walking around my base for an hour isn't very compelling play. But a mix of reading magazines, repetition, inventory and mods management could be neat. Again though, what is the repetition? Is it hits done via sneak attack or is it amount of time spent walking in stealth, or is it something else? A16 was some really uncompelling stealth play, and LBD scares me the most when it comes to that area of character development.
 
HammerDano said:
Games like Rust are continuously being added to...yup...they add to the base game...they don't change the base game over and over...they add to what they had. It's a relationship THEY established from the start...that they would keep ADDING to the base game...not keeping taking away...not reworking...ADDING. TFP just said they would finish the ■■■■ing game...and yet...it does not feel like they are any closer to finishing the game then they were...maybe even slightly farther behind.
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+
 
Jost Amman said:
But grinding is the very basis of LBD, so, basically, you're simply against LBD.
That's also why I don't like LBD, it's boring and takes away from the REAL gameplay.
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Or you could just, you know, play the game. Look, I'm anti-LBD for crafting, and honestly, anti-LBD in general. The only games I've ever liked it in are Wizardry 6/7/8 (but there you could only raise skills if you were doing something with the potential for failure or that cost resources) and 7 Days (but I started playing after they'd removed having to craft a billion clubs to make better clubs).

I never ground skills in A16, and I never found myself lacking. Yeah, I might be on day 30 something and have an armor skill under 10, but that didn't really matter. I don't know that I ever had a firearm skill over 50, yet I still had a blast playing the game.

My athletics was usually my first skill to hit 100, but I didn't bunny hop around. I did run everywhere though, but I still do that. It wasn't to grind, it was because I'm impatient and the walking speed is too slow. Second would be mining because I mine a lot.

Honestly, I'm not fussed one way or the other about LBD coming back. But I do want the crafting magazines to go away. They make the game too linear, and force me to go looting when I'd rather be doing something else.
 
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