Who wants Alpha 11 as the Sandbox Version

[Roland]

...cant stop and pick up water to boil while exploring. I have to go loot a PoI and hope it has toilet water in a jar .

Seems like that might be something that will change. Probably will be default for both modes.

...thank goodness that biome progression can be turned off
...

That's good for you. I like biome progression and don't see it as contradictory to an open world game. Just because I have to prep and complete tasks before opening up a new biome doesn't mean that the entire game is non-open world. In the grand scheme of an entire playthrough the entire world is open. It takes 10-20 minutes of real time to earn each badge for maybe 1-2 hours of playtime out of a 50-70 hour playthrough. But that is just my own take.

...God forbid that there might be a big citty in a RWG world forest.

I agree that for a sandbox mode the RWG should be completely random and allow for truly random biome/city matchups. It doesn't bother me since I like progression systems and progressing from a biome with small settlements to a biome with skyscrapers and large downtown areas is exactly what I like. But...another case showing that progression systems should be removed for a sandbox mode.

...I rather suffer 10x RnGs than chase the holly relic of <insert favorite item here> hidden in a vendor, smoothie, badge <insert favorite developer gates here>.

You lost me.

Wow, do me running backwards in the snow.......sounds perfect to me.

You really lost me and I'm afraid to interpret the "do me" part

Not too bad, although there should be a learning on how to survive what the world is throwing at ya.

Should? Learning is always going to be some sort of progression system. If a progression system is present there will be someone who feels forced to focus on it. That person will complain that they must play the game the way TFP wants them to play and claim that the mode isn't sandbox. Those of us who like some progression or lots of progression will think that's crazy talk but the talk will still be talking.

Now do I play games that are heavily storied base and therfore have such restricitons? Sure, I just dont see 7D2D as that type and therefor I rather have the option not to do it...........without modding.

Hence, the separate mode.

 

[theFlu]

Should? Learning is always going to be some sort of progression system.

Hmm, dunno if Rotor meant a game mechanic, or just the player learning the game mechanics.. either fits.

But either way, a game mechanic learning can for example be a way to obtain recipes. Let's say navezgane, loot isn't random; you can get the shotgun recipe from the shotgun factory and the sham can recipe from shamway offices. That's "learning" and quite sandboxy still; as much so as requiring steel to make a tool. (You need the mats vs You need the mats and the instructions).

Now "some people" will obviously complain about the game being played on a screen, as that's unrealistic. But should we not let them make their arguments for themselves, and in the lack of such focus on .. actual design? We can come up with all kinds of silly complaints from imaginary people, but I don't think that helps much in terms of game design.

 

[Rotor]

Hmm, dunno if Rotor meant a game mechanic, or just the player learning the game mechanics.. either fits.

But either way, a game mechanic learning can for example be a way to obtain recipes. Let's say navezgane, loot isn't random; you can get the shotgun recipe from the shotgun factory and the sham can recipe from shamway offices. That's "learning" and quite sandboxy still; as much so as requiring steel to make a tool. (You need the mats vs You need the mats and the instructions)

Yes!

 

[zztong]

I terms of open world, I don't mind character leveling and spending points on Perks. I don't mind searching the world for magazines and books.

In terms of open world options, turning off quests has some appeal. Turning off traders has some appeal too right now, though that could change with bandits if they lead to factions. I could see wanting to be the last survivor. I could see wanting to fit into a badlands society.

I could also see some alternative stories. Whatever The Duke story is, of course, but I also kind of like an "escape from the badlands" story.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Seems like that might be something that will change.

Do you mean possibly something like a permanent flask similar to a canteen of foreign legion flask
that may hold only 2 drinks, can be used at a campfire, can't be traded, degrades and must
be maintained. Something like that I had always wished for but never posted, for me it would
sever the tie to a water production mechanic, and allow me to forage farther with out always
having to probe a poi. Since I travel day and night, sometimes I just go out and map where I want
to go or what I want to do next. Then I return to base.

That would add a camping feeling, especially at night. And it is only 2/5ths of total water.

 

[Charger265]

On a side note, it does irritate me that inevitably the forum topics seem to get derailed quite a bit and people are more interested in responding to drama than actual game balance discussions.

There appears to be common denominators. I think it has more to do with the culture that has been allowed to fester. Honestly i cant fault the OP for calling it out. But there wouldn't be a need if the culture was different. Unfortunately you must lead by example and the example has been clear polarization.

All the systems should be able to stand on their own. Those who don't want to craft a lot should be able to find what they need in loot, trader rewards, purchasable inventory and vice versa with rare chances of finding something so good it may actually change your plans. Mining, etc., likewise.

Let the min-maxers min-max, but -- please -- leave something for everyone else to look forward to.

Your right all they have to do is make it so we are not locked into a set path. Give that freedom back to play as a mid max'er.. or turtle building bases

Looking back at everything; the developmental title, "Storms Brewing" seems a bit prophetic now.

I remember having this discussion with a friend not too long after 1.0 release. The writing has been on the wall for a long time.

An open world game where the player sets the agenda and determines their own end game is what we already have.

The whole point of the game is to progress and survive. The ability to chose ones agenda is now limited to the set paths the developer has imposed as over the years the restriction have become tighter and tighter. Im also sure a number of people feel the same way maybe even the "majority"

 

[Roland]

The ability to chose ones agenda is now limited to the set paths the developer has imposed as over the years the restriction have become tighter and tighter.

What agenda can't be chosen? These limited paths set by the developer....what are they? Can you list them and the forced steps you must take to follow them? I agree that the progression systems that keep getting added create more temporary restrictions (just until you get to the top of the ladder) but nothing that I can see forces a player in any one path.

 

[Paiper Zombee]

What agenda can't be chosen? These limited paths set by the developer....what are they? Can you list them and the forced steps you must take to follow them? I agree that the progression systems that keep getting added create more temporary restrictions (just until you get to the top of the ladder) but nothing that I can see forces a player in any one path.

Wanna run that one by me again on how paths AREN'T being forced by the developer lately?

 

[theFlu]

but nothing that I can see forces a player in any one path.

You're asking that After the massive s-storm that was brewed up by the developer wanting biome progression to be a straight line, no variation? After the trader progression hoppity-hop straight line from biome to biome, in a linear fashion, no variation? They're rolling it back, but I don't blame anyone remaining skeptical...

 

[Charger265]

What agenda can't be chosen? These limited paths set by the developer....what are they? Can you list them and the forced steps you must take to follow them? I agree that the progression systems that keep getting added create more temporary restrictions (just until you get to the top of the ladder) but nothing that I can see forces a player in any one path.

Forced to loot specific loot containers to progress, Being forced to chose a set character tree by way of falling behind the zombie progression if you diversify, Loot progression is locked behind skill points and loot tables. There are plenty more but you pointed it out yourself the progression system keeps adding temporary restriction which dictates the way the game is played.

You are right to the extent there is nothing stopping me from going a stun baton melee M60 machine gun and miner build but im now forced to spread the points over 3 trees losing out on all the bonus's (outlined more by the mastery branch)
How the current game has been setup is based on game stage and the bonuses are balanced around that. As such if diversifying you are punished by falling behind the progression game stage. Ok then the argument is just lower the difficulty which i have explained works just fine for solo. But doesn't really work for co-op as all would have to be on the same self imposed rules.

For new players this is a great way to teach them how to play and to explore different aspects of the game. But there comes a time for every player where they want to explore the mechanics or tailor the experience to a personal degree or simply just play as the fell like they want to play without having the feeling of overburdening pressure to stick to the path.

For someone like me who spends a lot of time in the xml files trying to understand the mechanics its very clear how the tables have developed to nurf play styles due to the simple fact the dev's classed it as too powerful. Thus removing that play style from the available options of choice. The issue runs far deeper than surface level points system.

 

[Roland]

Wanna run that one by me again on how paths AREN'T being forced by the developer lately?

Sure. In my opinion you can still play the game largely like you always could. You can farm, build, explore, mine, scavenge, hunt, and kill. Even without a single perk you can do all of that. It used to be that we would do all of that as static characters throughout the entire playthrough. Now we can grow our character stats in areas of our choosing to increase our ability in those activities.

The only way that I can think of that someone might believe there is only one forced path by the developers is if their entire focus is to level up and they've discovered the most optimal pathway to do that and refusing to deviate from that most optimal path accuse the developers of forcing it. But if you have something else in mind please share. I feel like I am constantly making my own choices for what I want to do. Tell me a choice you want to do but can't because the devs have forced you away from that way.

You're asking that After the massive s-storm that was brewed up by the developer wanting biome progression to be a straight line, no variation? After the trader progression hoppity-hop straight line from biome to biome, in a linear fashion, no variation? They're rolling it back, but I don't blame anyone remaining skeptical...

Yeah, I'm asking that precisely because they did roll that back. So what else is there? If straight line biome progression is all you've got then no worries. That one is already solved. But even that one was not fully forced. I went into the wasteland out of order and even made smoothies to get an airdrop and loot a POI in there before I even got my snow biome badge. What else prevents you from playing the game in different ways?

 

[Kalen]

The only way that I can think of that someone might believe there is only one forced path by the developers is if their entire focus is to level up and they've discovered the most optimal pathway to do that and refusing to deviate from that most optimal path accuse the developers of forcing it. But if you have something else in mind please share. I feel like I am constantly making my own choices for what I want to do. Tell me a choice you want to do but can't because the devs have forced you away from that way.

I mean yeah, that's exactly it. When I play a game, any game, I always try to find the most efficient way to play. Now I realize thats a "me" problem, but I strongly suspect that there are more people who play that way than there are that play your way. I envy that you can ignore the systems and do whatever you want, but I find it annoying that if I want to play a certain way, baton and shotgun for example, I have to intentionally hurt my overall progression to do so. I think that the fact that it wasn't always that way makes it even harder to accept.

 

[theFlu]

If straight line biome progression is all you've got then no worries. That one is already solved.

So, trader Jen won't be in the burnt biome as my second go-to-the-next-trader anymore? Followed by Bob in Desert, Hugh in Snow and Joel in the Wasteland?

Great! That's an official announcement, I take it?

What else prevents you from playing the game in different ways?

Dysentery.
Dead slow drop rate of yay-magazines from zombie drops so I can't even make coffee in the first week if I don't want to go spamloot kitchens.

Yeah, the claim that "you're absolutely forced to play a certain way" is too strong. But that's what the developer keeps developing, patch after patch, a linear dungeon-to-dungeon arcade shooter. But of course no-one's forcing anyone to play any certain way, you can always Alt-F4; no need to argue about that one. It's too strong.

But the sentiment of forced linear progression follows from the dev actions; that's what they seem to be doing with every change.
- from random recipes in the world to exact-to-a-tee progress through number-of-mailboxes looted
- from tin can boiling of water to "harvest couple hundred plastic and earn a 600 dukes for the standard cooking pot" job simulator
- from upgrading and degrading weapons by repairs and combines with items found in the world to "read 100 specific magazines to make your one and done". And free parts if you happened to spec correctly, of course!
- from temperature system with areas requiring different gearing to a "challenge", err, shopping list system where you follow the UI list to ... and while temps might be coming back, Might; it wouldn't be wrong to guess it'll be "buy a winter gear -icon from Trader Hugh for 10k dukes, and place it on the character sheet for your cold resistance"

The world isn't really a world anymore, just a minor hindrance between you and the checklists.

But hey, Alt-F4 is indeed an option!

 

[Charger265]

The only way that I can think of that someone might believe there is only one forced path by the developers is if their entire focus is to level up and they've discovered the most optimal pathway to do that and refusing to deviate from that most optimal path accuse the developers of forcing it. But if you have something else in mind please share. I feel like I am constantly making my own choices for what I want to do. Tell me a choice you want to do but can't because the devs have forced you away from that way.

I have just explained that the game stage progression via zombie strength and type dictates the need to progress your character on a linear line to stay within these bounds. Everything is now bound by the progression of your character against the game stage progression.

Choice is an illusion when you exclude all other possibilities.

 

[Roland]

Forced to loot specific loot containers to progress,

You'll have to clarify what you mean by this. Are you talking about magazines? Magazines only determine the quality of tool or weapon that you can craft. You can still progress using skillpoints without ever opening a single container. I don't run around looking for specific loot containers that are key to progressing. I just play the game and loot whatever containers I find and make do with whatever level tool or weapon I have until I eventually learn better. If I see a shotgun messiah store and I've been hoping for parts and magazines for the weapon I'm perked into then, yes, I choose to deviate from whatever I was doing to stop and enter that store hoping to find what I need. But what's wrong with that. Indeed, people asked for specialized loot containers rather than the generic ones we used to have where you could find anything anywhere and it never mattered where you explored. But perhaps you are talking about something else.

Being forced to chose a set character tree by way of falling behind the zombie progression if you diversify,

I can't agree with this. I've done playthroughs where I didn't advance any perk or skillpoint until I had progressed them all to level 2. That is as diversified as you can get and I didn't fall behind the zombie progression. That was on Nomad difficulty which is default +1. The zombie progression is not that difficult and using strategies like choke points and explosives can always keep the edge on your side. Is it more challenging by upping the difficulty? Yes. But that's what upping the difficulty is for--- a challenge. Choosing one tree gives you 5 ways to play the game which each feel different and each have different challenges. Choosing two trees gives you 10 additional ways to play and Choosing a combination of three trees gives you another 10 additional ways to play. At the default level none of those options will cause the player to fall behind the zombie progression.

As for multiplayer, I get it. My brother and I play with our Mom who loves the game but struggles on normal difficulty. We play on nomad and support her. It's an incredibly rewarding experience trying to keep her alive and make sure we don't get split up from her so she finds herselve overwhelmed. She does fine. Every group has to come to an agreement about the settings for their game and I believe they are still free to choose that difficulty and are not forced.

Loot progression is locked behind skill points and loot tables.

How does that force one path? You can find better loot by choosing to go to a tougher biome and into a tougher POI. I hardly ever spend a single point on any loot related bonus perks and I find what I need to survive. Amping up your loot stage and going to places where there are better loot tables isn't forcing anything. It's offering a choice. Stay where its safe and get blah loot that can be used to craft better stuff or go where it's risky and get good loot beyond what you can craft yourself. I've done both methods and never feel forced to do one or the other. Do you really believe you absolutely must spend those skill points on loot bonuses?

There are plenty more but you pointed it out yourself the progression system keeps adding temporary restriction which dictates the way the game is played.

I would amend that to be temporary restrictions which make playing the game in certain ways more challenging for a time at least until you've finished the progression. Yes, I do believe that RPG-like progression systems do add rules and restrictions in order for them to work properly and I do enjoy them myself so my bias is that they don't destroy free will. I will also add that in this game in particular there is no activity you are blocked from doing if you don't buy into the perks that enhance that activity. You just operate at a diminished capacity compared to what you could do fully perked up. So it's not even a hard and fast lock-out. It's a player's choice for how they want to spend their points.

You are right to the extent there is nothing stopping me from going a stun baton melee M60 machine gun and miner build but im now forced to spread the points over 3 trees losing out on all the bonus's (outlined more by the mastery branch)

Exactly. But I already covered this. There is literally nothing stopping you except your own choice. You say "forced" to spread the points over 3 trees but I say given the choice of how to spend your points. Sure, it is the more expensive route and you won't get to the top of those ladders until far into the game but you'll still be an effective survivor and have lots of fun with your M60/ stun baton combo. Of course, in reality, you can still have fun with an M60/ Stun Baton combo even if you only perk into one of those weapons instead of both.

How the current game has been setup is based on game stage and the bonuses are balanced around that. As such if diversifying you are punished by falling behind the progression game stage. Ok then the argument is just lower the difficulty which i have explained works just fine for solo. But doesn't really work for co-op as all would have to be on the same self imposed rules.

Covered this up above. I think it works fine for co-op. Co-op cooks this game and a group should always pick a difficulty that is one higher than what the weakest member is comfortable playing solo and everyone works to keep each other safe. Do quests as a squad. Plan horde nights out with each person taking a strategic position. Specialize in different trees and coordinate magazines. I find it fun, engaging, and rewarding and when playing as a group we are never behind the zombie progression. Even if it does happen...you can always lower the difficulty.

For new players this is a great way to teach them how to play and to explore different aspects of the game. But there comes a time for every player where they want to explore the mechanics or tailor the experience to a personal degree or simply just play as the fell like they want to play without having the feeling of overburdening pressure to stick to the path.

You'll have to explain this one to me. I've been playing for 10 years and am still trying out new things and new challenges within the current system. What are you trying to explore but feel too much overburdening pressure to do it?

For someone like me who spends a lot of time in the xml files trying to understand the mechanics its very clear how the tables have developed to nurf play styles due to the simple fact the dev's classed it as too powerful. Thus removing that play style from the available options of choice. The issue runs far deeper than surface level points system.

Okay, I'll trust your analysis but even if true how does nerfing an OP playstyle remove it from the game? It may be nerfed but it's still there available isn't it? I mean they nerfed underground bases by allowing zombies to dig and at first everyone declared that playstyle was gone but after awhile some people adapted and discovered that it isn't impossible to have an underground base. We chose to have an underground base in the desert and it was great. Yes we all boiled up to the surface whenever we heard a screamer nearby but it was definitely doable even if it was more challenging than underground bases used to be before that nerf. I guess, give me an example of a playstyle that got nerfed which made it unable to be chosen from the available options of choice.

 

[Charger265]

I think the illusion of choice is best described by an analogy

Option A: You can jump to your death from a great height
Option B: You can be fed to sharks

Yup they gave you options. Yes that is a choice...
What about the option where i dont want to die (in 7 days)


I recognize that most players don’t engage with the XML tables or seek to understand them, which makes it challenging to concisely explain how the restrictions have limited gameplay choices and options. I’ll conclude here, as I’d rather not dwell on a point that may not be easily understood.

 

[Roland]

So, trader Jen won't be in the burnt biome as my second go-to-the-next-trader anymore? Followed by Bob in Desert, Hugh in Snow and Joel in the Wasteland?

Great! That's an official announcement, I take it?

Okay, that's one. You have to introduce yourselves to the traders in order if you want the opening trade routes quest. But is that quest mandatory? Not at all. You can choose to just go explore and find the next trader on your own. Do you have to do your tier 2 quests from Jenn? No. Do you have to stay in the burnt biome and only interact with Jenn? No. They have removed the requirement using the previous biome hazard immunity to get the next one so you can ignore the special trade routes quests completely if you wish and just go to the desert after Rekt and start talking to Bob once you find him. The next tier of quests start after you have enough reputation points not finding the next trader in one particular order.

Dysentery.

Some games I have vitamins and use them before and so don't get it
Some games I get it but gain a vitamin and so cure it
Some games I get it but buy a tea from the vending machine and so cure it
Some games I live with it until it runs its course
Some games I learn how to craft the tea myself and so cure it.

Dead slow drop rate of yay-magazines from zombie drops so I can't even make coffee in the first week if I don't want to go spamloot kitchens.

Why does it have to be either/or? Why not break into a few houses and kill some zombies, buy a coffee, buy the magazines? You can spend a point on cooking to help but you don't have to. I get it. You don't like any of those choices. You want recipes to be deterministic and something to spend points on or to get better at by doing so it is in your control. I didn't dislike it when recipes and skills were linked with skillpoint spending or even back when it was LBD. But I also don't think you are forced into only one path with today's version.

- from random recipes in the world to exact-to-a-tee progress through number-of-mailboxes looted

I go days without opening a single mailboxes and I am randomly gaining recipes out in the world boosted somewhat by my perks. Spending days going from mailbox to mailbox is definitely a choice. It's not one I'd make and it surprises me to still hear people doing it who act like they hate doing it but still they do it....

- from tin can boiling of water to "harvest couple hundred plastic and earn a 600 dukes for the standard cooking pot" job simulator

True that tin can boiling is gone. There is no way to do it before you get a cooking pot. I'll give you that one. But nobody is forced to buy their cooking pot from the trader. Sometimes I do and sometimes I get a forge going and make my own and sometimes I find one in a house. But I know this particular one hits a strong immersion feeling for you and I agree that being able to boil a tin can of water would be cool.

- from upgrading and degrading weapons by repairs and combines with items found in the world to "read 100 specific magazines to make your one and done". And free parts if you happened to spec correctly, of course!

I don't get this. I make many versions of the same weapon over the course of a playthrough using parts found in the world. Never have I waited to craft my one and done ultimate weapon until after spending time reading all 100 magazines. TFP definitely doesn't force us to read all the magazines first and then make the one ultimate weapon that is unlocked by that last magazine. I upgrade my weapons with modifications and when I can craft a better version I do so often harvesting the part of the one I used to make the next better version. I also use weapons I'm not perked into with great success.

Im not arguing against weapon degradation as that is something I've always wanted for this game and the combining feature was cool as was the weapon part system they used to have. But there is still a lot of choices to be made with the current system. Nobody is forced to wait to make their one weapon until after they've read the entire collection of magazines.

- from temperature system with areas requiring different gearing to a "challenge", err, shopping list system where you follow the UI list to ... and while temps might be coming back, Might; it wouldn't be wrong to guess it'll be "buy a winter gear -icon from Trader Hugh for 10k dukes, and place it on the character sheet for your cold resistance"

Temperatures are coming back but I don't know exactly if it will be a badge-like item, or an armor modification, or if the armor sets will get hot/cold resistance ratings, or if there will be a smoothie-like item. There was plenty of complaining at the time about having to change clothing at biome borders and during rainstorms so it wasn't all roses and sunshine back when we had temperature the way it was. Whatever they change it to will be liked by some and disliked by others for sure.

My question is why do look back at being "forced" to change clothes to mitigate temperature with such fondness but push back against similar mechanics that are implemented differently? There isn't much difference between slotting in a puffer coat vs slotting in some insulating liner vs slotting in a badge vs slotting in an injection. Probably immersion again?

The world isn't really a world anymore, just a minor hindrance between you and the checklists.

That can only come from playing it like a spreadsheet. The world feels like a world to me. I mean if all you care about are the mechanics and gaming the systems then any game boils down to checklists, die rolls, and rule restrictions. Some people can only play D&D and have a boring time because its just a series of die roll checks for success or failure. Others can play D&D and get past the mechanics to the story and how fate pushes the party this direction or that but by their choices and some DM fudging they might barely succeed in an epic story.

But...if it just comes down to the fact that you don't like the mechanics then, sure, I understand that. You can't like what you don't like.

 

[Roland]

I think the illusion of choice is best described by an analogy

Option A: You can jump to your death from a great height
Option B: You can be fed to sharks

Yup they gave you options. Yes that is a choice...
What about the option where i dont want to die (in 7 days)


I recognize that most players don’t engage with the XML tables or seek to understand them, which makes it challenging to concisely explain how the restrictions have limited gameplay choices and options. I’ll conclude here, as I’d rather not dwell on a point that may not be easily understood.

Ha! I'm not going to let you off that easily. How about instead of an analogy you give an actual example from the actual game. I might agree with you that there is only an illusion of choice but I'd like to get a real example from you. I'm not going to change my mind if all you have is hypothetically falling to my death or being eaten by sharks. What is that even supposed to be an analogy of within the game?

I also think it is a bit of a copout to say that you are so well versed in the coding that it would be impossible to explain how nerfing a gameplay option makes it unavailable to even be chosen. If it's true you can explain it and I won't begrudge any condescending tone you take in doing it so that someone like me can understand.

 

[Charger265]

Ha! I'm not going to let you off that easily. How about instead of an analogy you give an actual example from the actual game. I might agree with you that there is only an illusion of choice but I'd like to get a real example from you. I'm not going to change my mind if all you have is hypothetically falling to my death or being eaten by sharks. What is that even supposed to be an analogy of within the game?

I also think it is a bit of a copout to say that you are so well versed in the coding that it would be impossible to explain how nerfing a gameplay option makes it unavailable to even be chosen. If it's true you can explain it and I won't begrudge any condescending tone you take in doing it so that someone like me can understand.

Ok i will humor you a little.
As for choice i did explain how the game penalizes you for deviating from the set trees and you were unable to grasp that concept. The only thing you provided was you have the choice of game difficulty however in co-op the server configuration file removes all those options from the player.

Now for a simplified XML example (these are only examples as i dont have the files in front of me and not able to load the game to get the exact points required so i can be sure it will be wrong if taken literary but the concept im trying to convey still rings true)

Game stage progression = increased zombie strength from what i can remember from the past it was very much a linear progression (i will assume its the same in 2.0)
Player progression = Damage output (DPS) this also factors in things like stamina and chance single hit kills

We are also going to assume that the game difficulty is also set to a limit which matches the players skill level
As you play through the game "game stage" increases spawning new zombie types (stronger) and at the same time you are increasing your DPS via skill points into weapon based skills under one single skill tree.

This progression is tied together and the skill trees have been balanced in this way by the dev's. Even more so now with the mastery perks that have been added giving huge increases in DPS to keep pace with the game stage.

Now lets say you diversify.
Game stage progression is linear so there is no change there but now you have put points across 3 trees. Because you have diversified and it requires a set number of points to reach each level of the mastery perks. The ability to have the (some times double) the DPS which is required to keep pace with the linear progression. Diversifying is not balanced and as a result you the player are penalized for not following the path of the dev's within that skill tree... Only after you have focused on one tree and max out the DPS can you branch out. But by that stage when you wish to change out to a different weapon you have the DPS of day 1 but game stage of day 50

This is just one basic concept but the same can be applied to things like infection chance & healing, damage mitigation and many more.. The whole game is now built and balanced around following the set path they have outlined in the 5 trees.

In the past the progression was based around the same concept however you could chose which perk you wanted to spec into when you wanted without requiring a huge points dump into specific tress just to allow the options to open up to the player. Yes you still needed to specialize or the game would outpace you but you had the choice in what you wanted to specialize in.. Not just 5 trees. it was anything and everything.

I honestly dont know how to simplify it any further... Hope this helps either way...

 

[theFlu]

We've had this discussion for years by now, so I'm just going to snipe a few things; hopefully in a fair way still, but..

You have to introduce yourselves to the traders in order if you want the opening trade routes quest. But is that quest mandatory?

It's not mandatory, as I said, Alt-F4. But it's one part of the rails .. it's a part of the gravity well of the quest loop, EVERYTHING in the game is pulling the player towards it.

Some games I get it but gain a vitamin and so cure it

Hmm, I was under the impression that vitamins wouldn't cure it? Maybe they do, I dunno.
And where would you get those vitamins reliably..? Oh right, the quest loop.

Why does it have to be either/or? Why not break into a few houses and kill some zombies, buy a coffee, buy the magazines?

"I feel forced to do things on rails" .. "No, but why can't you just do a little on the rails. Just a little railing, it won't hurt."
"Buy a coffee" implies making surplus money to waste it on a coffee... how to make it fast? Back to the quest loop you go!

I feel like I'm forced to run a marathon on the track. Just a few laps, he says, it won't hurt.
Once I've done those couple laps, the next thing is.. run a few more.

I go days without opening a single mailboxes and I am randomly gaining recipes out in the world

Soo, you're looting the bookshelves, next to the mailbox, but you skip the mailbox? Like I said, yes, Alt-F4 is an option.

It's not one I'd make and it surprises me to still hear people doing it who act like they hate doing it but still they do it....

Dunno if you're implying that I'm doing it; not in the strict sense, just as part of the quest loop, exactly as designed.

I make many versions of the same weapon over the course of a playthrough using parts found in the world.

Why? Why waste the resources for the quality tiers that last a day? You're going to be absolutely fine with the quest loop items until you get to the point you can make something the quest loop won't provide. You can spend the time, or you can just go open the next quest loop end loot and find the same thing in it, for free.

There isn't much difference between slotting in a puffer coat vs slotting in some insulating liner vs slotting in a badge vs slotting in an injection. Probably immersion again?

Immersion, you can call it that. A character that reflects the gear changes, a world that lives around you (changing temps) forcing you to react, and the way to obtain a puffer was a clothing store, not a "Gather some snow, blueberries and ..." -shopping list. A world that provided meat for the hunter (now even that is tied to getting to burnt biome for boars.. quest loop!).

You can still see an image of a world there, if you stop and look for it. But the base nature of it has been shifting to a linear grind. The biome badge nonsense was the obvious culmination, both absolutely strictly linear and 100% a UI-mechanic. That's what TFP wants to be doing, so that's why they released it as was; unsuspecting of any wrong.

They want it linear, so everything is, how is this news?