Who wants Alpha 11 as the Sandbox Version

[HammerDano]

I agree that I should be crystal clear when I am posting my opinion and I usually am but the person I quoted in that thread was asking for ideas about what could be the basis of the two modes because the thread was getting off topic. To help get it back on topic I answered his question with my own thoughts. Since I was answering a question asking for ideas I thought it obvious that I was sharing my ideas and not making some kind of official announcement.

What is irritating to me is that Hammer sees nefarious intent in everything. It also irritates me that he misquoted me. I never suggested A11 as the version to base a sandbox version off of. It shows he didn't read carefully to understand what I was saying. I know it was just a mistake but I also know that if the same mistake were mine they would accuse me of lying just like they constantly accuse the devs of lying about tentative dates. Even my response which was a sincere answer (I really do believe that RPG elements must be expunged in order to get back to the sandbox feeling people remember) they accuse of being malicious compliance. How? My response was 100% on topic and, in my opinion, a good topic for conversation and thought.

And then what about that whole conversation about how faatal is just an employee and not really authorized to make official statements and it can't be anyone other than Rick or Joel but now suddenly my comments in a random ideas thread have to be taken as official statements because I have the title of Community Moderator? So I rank higher than faatal and pretty much lateral to Joel and Rick while at the same time not even being an employee? How....?

I believe that everyone who hates the direction of the game over the past few years has to ask themselves if the devs roll back some of the progression systems that a person doesn't like why not roll back all of them just in case there's someone else who doesn't like the others that that person is fine with? This is a real question and not just to stir up trouble.

If you continue to read that other thread I go into more depth about why I think Alpha 10 is probably the best version to base a survival sandbox game off of because it was the last version to not have any overt RPG elements added.

well, let's nip this is the bud.
There's been no one suggesting a completely bare bones sandbox...and you know it.
They are asking for A16 with the new graphics.
So crying foul because I said A11....and you meant pre A11....how is that better?
That's not what is being asked for....that sounded a lot like you advocating for malicious compliance.
"they" is me...i called you out for suggesting malicious compliance. when I reported the interaction.
your explanation of why it was not, falls flat for me. people are asking for A16...so you suggest the most bare bones version you could think of?
tone deaf...and inflammatory.

and yes, I do think you could be that petty.

Here's why I think that:
bringing up THAT argument...petty...and tells me where your head was and is.
and since you brought it up. let's rehash it: I said if someone asked "who are the 7dtd devs" the answer is Rick, Joel and Lathan...and got cried at for NOT INCLUDING every member of the staff. I have since gone out of my way to show respect to faatal. Not good enough? TFB
Whining about me wanting the updates ON TIME? or with an explanation? good grief. PETTY

Your paragraph about IF TFP rollback.....isn't this supposed to be done AFTER COMMUNICATION? you are doom and glooming the CHANGE.

I don't think you have the professionalism to separate your feelings from being a moderator...you have your thumb on the scale...which is kinda how this site turned into a toxic place where negative feedback went to die. it's not just you.

 

[HammerDano]

Hmmmm….Let’s try it this way for awhile.

that lasted almost one night...awesome.

 

[Roland]

There's been no one suggesting a completely bare bones sandbox...and you know it.

They are asking for A16 with the new graphics.

The guy asked for new or different ideas. Mine is that for the sandbox to be truly free of the types of constraints that people have been complaining about TFP should go back to the point where there was no progression fueled constraints. And it was just that-- an idea, a suggestion. You've got to come to terms with the concept that a tentative date is not a promise and suggestion is not an announcement.

So crying foul because I said A11....and you meant pre A11....how is that better?

It's better because the whole point of my suggestion was to go back to a time when there was no RPG elements beginning to reduce and work against the sandbox nature of the game. A11 had spam crafting. It was a rudimentary form of it but it was in A11 that for the first time players started spending the first few days doing repetitive grinding and feeling compelled to do so by the game's design. When I said A10 or before I was talking about removing all progression from the sandbox mode but with all the new graphics, vehicles, etc. The progression aspects would still all be there in the story mode.

That's not what is being asked for....that sounded a lot like you advocating for malicious compliance.
"they" is me...i called you out for suggesting malicious compliance. when I reported the interaction.
your explanation of why it was not, falls flat for me. people are asking for A16...so you suggest the most bare bones version you could think of?
tone deaf...and inflammatory.

I meant you by "they". "They" is a gender neutral pronoun since I don't know you. My suggestion was sincere and I still believe what I say to be true. If nobody can suggest anything other than "base it on A16" or be accused of malicious intent then how can there be conversations? Have you even ever played A16? Haven't you always been exclusively console? Why are you so protective of the A16 version? What if after playing you still felt too constrained and that the game still wasn't sandbox enough?

that lasted almost one night...awesome.

You thought I was serious? I thought the winking and blowing a kiss emoji would let you know I was joking. Naw....you're stuck with me.

 

[Jugom]

You thought I was serious? I thought the winking and blowing a kiss emoji would let you know I was joking. Naw....you're stuck with me.

They also took your pre alpha11 comment as an announcement. You should know better by now.

 

[HammerDano]

The guy asked for new or different ideas. Mine is that for the sandbox to be truly free of the types of constraints that people have been complaining about TFP should go back to the point where there was no progression fueled constraints. And it was just that-- an idea, a suggestion. You've got to come to terms with the concept that a tentative date is not a promise and suggestion is not an announcement.

i think that it is clear...neither of us is unprejudiced toward the other. you read everything I say with bad intent and hatred in my heart

NO...I can accept tentative dates...but you a seriously straining credibility here, tentative does not mean OPEN ENDED.

I suggest maybe you should accept that the roadmap was the thing that got a lot of console players to buy back in.
It very much was because of the dates...dates imply an end, urgency, that the end is near.

It is more than a little frustrating that you guys say that it's our fault for believing them.

That is a good part of my reasoning for calling them missing the road map dates "lies". The lack of communication is just salt in the wounds.
To have the PC crowd tell us over and over again to STFU and wait another 3-4 years...for content that none of you seem to be waiting for. Many are waiting for the version to come out so they can play it once, while they wait for a modder (in some cases yourselves) to "fix" it.
well FFS how does that help console? seriously...I don't care that you guys have mods and modlets.
but not really caring if it's good or bad?

It's better because the whole point of my suggestion was to go back to a time when there was no RPG elements beginning to reduce and work against the sandbox nature of the game. A11 had spam crafting. It was a rudimentary form of it but it was in A11 that for the first time players started spending the first few days doing repetitive grinding and feeling compelled to do so by the game's design. When I said A10 or before I was talking about removing all progression from the sandbox mode but with all the new graphics, vehicles, etc. The progression aspects would still all be there in the story mode.

I meant you by "they". "They" is a gender neutral pronoun since I don't know you. My suggestion was sincere and I still believe what I say to be true. If nobody can suggest anything other than "base it on A16" or be accused of malicious intent then how can there be conversations? Have you even ever played A16? Haven't you always been exclusively console? Why are you so protective of the A16 version? What if after playing you still felt too constrained and that the game still wasn't sandbox enough?

funny I read "they" to mean multiple people...since you do know who I am why be vague? not important.

Then put out a poll...gather info...you are a moderator...someone who is supposed to set the tone.
I am not married to A16...but the majority of post I have read both on and off site DO. (I am ignoring all the rhetoric about me)

sidenote** engaging in tone deaf speculation while we are waiting for TFP to start gathering imput...maybe is not productive...and stirs up controversy...which is a weird thing for someone who is supposed to MODERATE the conversation to do.

You thought I was serious? I thought the winking and blowing a kiss emoji would let you know I was joking. Naw....you're stuck with me.

troll behavior? awesome

 

[HammerDano]

They also took your pre alpha11 comment as an announcement. You should know better by now.

I posted this thread before he responded to me on that other thread. He has ignored me many times...was not expecting this time to be any different.

 

[Kyoji]

So I rank higher than faatal and pretty much lateral to Joel and Rick while at the same time not even being an employee

Aha!

That's still somewhat true, but I used to wonder why I was being expected to tackle military installations, for example, if I wasn't going to find any military gear in it, but only generic loot. Thanks. I think you just answered that question.

I agree that we need a fundamental change to the loot cap system. The game should offer much better loot for certain POI types. Military installations should have more military grade gear while police cars shouldn't have an M60 kind of deal. Certain weapons types should be more controlled to spawn in relevant loot containers. To compensate the loot in said POIs should have more challenging difficulty to obtain them.


On a side note, it does irritate me that inevitably the forum topics seem to get derailed quite a bit and people are more interested in responding to drama than actual game balance discussions.

 

[HammerDano]

As much as you twist and misrepresent what is being written, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you have difficulty understanding English, but this thread in particular makes me think you just intentionally disregard context so that you can spin the story however you want it.


.. The Devs didn't even bother ask what we want! .. How can they possibly know?? .. I'm sure they don't have literally thousands of pages of questions and comments that reflect the concerns of the fanbase.

any chance you don't have the full context? yup.
read the this thread again...start to finish...if you are still of the same opinion, I'd have to assume the same of you.

During the Town Hall...Did TFP say that they would gather opinions?

Did Rick say on Reddit that he would post a poll?

 

[Jeraal]

snip

You said it a bit more bluntly than I would have, but malicious compliance fits my fear of how they might handle it.
"You want us to roll back a bit? Fine, here."
"Not that far."
"Well, we tried."

 

[Mister Forgash]

I agree that we need a fundamental change to the loot cap system. The game should offer much better loot for certain POI types. Military installations should have more military grade gear while police cars shouldn't have an M60 kind of deal. Certain weapons types should be more controlled to spawn in relevant loot containers. To compensate the loot in said POIs should have more challenging difficulty to obtain them.

Wouldn't it be nice if these were the kinds of things we discussed on the forum.. if loot balance should be balanced less on a 'per biome' basis and more of a 'per poi' If even in the earlier days, if your willing to brave a high level PoI with ferals and other difficult zeds and as a reward, you're likely to find some Tier 1 gear instead of pipe pistols and bone shivs.

But nah man, moderator said something, better make sure we have the pitchforks ready in case it's a personal take and not upcoming patch notes.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 10:49 AM

any chance you don't have the full context? yup.
read the this thread again...start to finish...if you are still of the same opinion, I'd have to assume the same of you.

During the Town Hall...Did TFP say that they would gather opinions?

Did Rick say on Reddit that he would post a poll?

I did read the full thread prior to posting. That's what makes me so sad.

Who's to say they didn't gather opinions? Do they have to ask you personally? Do they have to tell you where they're looking?

We don't know how busy they are, what they're doing day-by-day. Maybe they're not going to make a poll until they're going to commit to changes.

Thank goodness we have you doubt everything.

 

[HammerDano]

Wouldn't it be nice if these were the kinds of things we discussed on the forum.. if loot balance should be balanced less on a 'per biome' basis and more of a 'per poi' If even in the earlier days, if your willing to brave a high level PoI with ferals and other difficult zeds and as a reward, you're likely to find some Tier 1 gear instead of pipe pistols and bone shivs.

But nah man, moderator said something, better make sure we have the pitchforks ready in case it's a personal take and not upcoming patch notes.

now...I have "dragged" a few posts off topic. So I say this with no heat.
you are on thread about Who wants A11 as the Sandbox...and are getting mad about a guy talking about loot balancing. while still flaming me. (well done...peak irony)

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 10:53 AM

Wouldn't it be nice if these were the kinds of things we discussed on the forum.. if loot balance should be balanced less on a 'per biome' basis and more of a 'per poi' If even in the earlier days, if your willing to brave a high level PoI with ferals and other difficult zeds and as a reward, you're likely to find some Tier 1 gear instead of pipe pistols and bone shivs.

But nah man, moderator said something, better make sure we have the pitchforks ready in case it's a personal take and not upcoming patch notes.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 10:49 AM

I did read the full thread prior to posting. That's what makes me so sad.

Who's to say they didn't gather opinions? Do they have to ask you personally? Do they have to tell you where they're looking?

We don't know how busy they are, what they're doing day-by-day. Maybe they're not going to make a poll until they're going to commit to changes.

Thank goodness we have you doubt everything.

and you kinda missed the important part...about them saying they were going to ask the community.

 

[Mister Forgash]

now...I have "dragged" a few posts off topic. So I say this with no heat.
you are on thread about Who wants A11 as the Sandbox...and are getting mad about a guy talking about loot balancing. while still flaming me. (well done...peak irony)

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 10:53 AM

and you kinda missed the important part...about them saying they were going to ask the community.

I think it's safe to say the thread had already been derailed before I added my comment. But still, talking about loot balance and placement is pretty on topic when the topic is about going back to the sandbox days without perks and levels, which begs the question- without these influences, how/where would you get [good] loot? ..I don't even know how you got to the conclusion I'm mad about advocating for loot rebalancing when I'm agreeing with it.

--
I think you missed the important part of- do they really need to ask the community again, when we as a community have been telling them constantly as it is. If they want to know the hot topics, they only need review what we've been saying for the last few months- it's already all here for them to see. They don't need to take a new poll or something.

 

[Adam the Waster]

I agree that I should be crystal clear when I am posting my opinion and I usually am but the person I quoted in that thread was asking for ideas about what could be the basis of the two modes because the thread was getting off topic. To help get it back on topic I answered his question with my own thoughts. Since I was answering a question asking for ideas I thought it obvious that I was sharing my ideas and not making some kind of official announcement.

What is irritating to me is that Hammer sees nefarious intent in everything. It also irritates me that he misquoted me. I never suggested A11 as the version to base a sandbox version off of. It shows he didn't read carefully to understand what I was saying. I know it was just a mistake but I also know that if the same mistake were mine they would accuse me of lying just like they constantly accuse the devs of lying about tentative dates. Even my response which was a sincere answer (I really do believe that RPG elements must be expunged in order to get back to the sandbox feeling people remember) they accuse of being malicious compliance. How? My response was 100% on topic and, in my opinion, a good topic for conversation and thought.

And then what about that whole conversation about how faatal is just an employee and not really authorized to make official statements and it can't be anyone other than Rick or Joel but now suddenly my comments in a random ideas thread have to be taken as official statements because I have the title of Community Moderator? So I rank higher than faatal and pretty much lateral to Joel and Rick while at the same time not even being an employee? How....?

I believe that everyone who hates the direction of the game over the past few years has to ask themselves if the devs roll back some of the progression systems that a person doesn't like why not roll back all of them just in case there's someone else who doesn't like the others that that person is fine with? This is a real question and not just to stir up trouble.

If you continue to read that other thread I go into more depth about why I think Alpha 10 is probably the best version to base a survival sandbox game off of because it was the last version to not have any overt RPG elements added.

It terms of sandbox mode

You should have a few settings to make things how any players wants it. And overhaul basicly

1. Casual: all unlocks all
2. Standard: use books and maybe if the Pimps listen, then they made you a news progression system.
3. Hardcore: same thing but more lost/cut things like no map, watch, etc you gotta find it

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Looking back at everything; the developmental title, "Storms Brewing" seems a bit prophetic now.

 

[zztong]

I'm perhaps using the wrong terms. What I have been calling a "sandbox" I probably really mean "open world." That is, a sandbox could be considered god mode and creative menu access such that you can build anything. But I really mean I want to play the game but not be bound by the story. It isn't a pure sandbox. I set the agenda and I determine the end of the game, so it isn't the story either.

 

[HammerDano]

I think it's safe to say the thread had already been derailed before I added my comment. But still, talking about loot balance and placement is pretty on topic when the topic is about going back to the sandbox days without perks and levels, which begs the question- without these influences, how/where would you get [good] loot? ..I don't even know how you got to the conclusion I'm mad about advocating for loot rebalancing when I'm agreeing with it.

--
I think you missed the important part of- do they really need to ask the community again, when we as a community have been telling them constantly as it is. If they want to know the hot topics, they only need review what we've been saying for the last few months- it's already all here for them to see. They don't need to take a new poll or something.

Yup...sure...no need to take a poll or something...other than, that as a group, and rick separately, said that they would do something along those lines.

 

[Roland]

I can let the drama part of this go. I feel I have stated what my intent was and it will be up to readers to decide whether they will take me at my word or believe Hammer's assumptions.

Using Alpha 10 as the base for a survival sandbox mode would not be the same as turning on creative mode. Back when we played Alpha 10 there was very much a strong survival quality to it. It just had zero RPG elements. We farmed, mined, explored, scavenged, killed, and built. I can't remember if Alpha 10 had schematics or not but assuming not, all recipes in the game are unlocked from day one and your only barrier to crafting is going out and gathering the materials needed. There would be no waiting until a random book showed up in loot. Progression, as it was, was simply being able to gain the materials needed to craft the top tier equipment and our damaging ability was all dependent upon that gear and not a personal character stat that improved over the course of the game.

I was wrong about quality 600 because that didn't start until Alpha 11 where crafting things repeatedly improved the quality of the item you were crafting. In Alpha 10 and below every item was just static and it was simply that an iron tool was better than a primitive tool.

Using Alpha 16 as the basis for a sandbox mode would be fine by me. I'm not against it at all. But Alpha 16 already had progression systems that incentivized players to focus on leveling up and feeling constrained in what they wanted to do until they completed the progression ladder controlling that part of the game. I'm very pro progression systems and love the new ones added to 2.0 but I know others are not and saying that we've got to get back to the sandbox roots but then only going so far and keeping certain progression systems in because I feel fine about them seems a bit selfish.

No matter what the basis for the sandbox mode would be, of course, we are talking about remastering it with all current graphics and building blocks and vehicles and POIs and also sliders and toggles that would increase/decrease the survival difficulty. I'm also not advocating for something that is just basically a creative mode. We played the game for years on Steam (A5 - A10) without any RPG elements and it clearly was thought of as a survival game and was not some simple creative style nongame.

As to the question of whether TFP is going to ask for player feedback and put out a poll before they make any hard and fast decisions about what would go into a survival sandbox mode, I have no idea. If Rick wants to do a poll then I suppose he'll do a poll. But I don't know when it will be posted.

 

[Kalen]

Back when we played Alpha 10 there was very much a strong survival quality to it. It just had zero RPG elements. We farmed, mined, explored, scavenged, killed, and built

Call me crazy, but I miss the old forge system from back then.... with melting ore and pouring into molds.

 

[Roland]

I'm perhaps using the wrong terms. What I have been calling a "sandbox" I probably really mean "open world." That is, a sandbox could be considered god mode and creative menu access such that you can build anything. But I really mean I want to play the game but not be bound by the story. It isn't a pure sandbox. I set the agenda and I determine the end of the game, so it isn't the story either.

I agree that the purest form of sandbox that this game can provide is turning on creative mode and using Godmode with access to spawning in enemies, etc. That would be very Gary's Mod-esque which is widely accepted as THE video game sandbox.

An open world game where the player sets the agenda and determines their own end game is what we already have. Depending on how someone approaches the game it will feel more or less of a sandbox. I like progression systems and I like playing them without letting them be the focus of my agenda. My agenda has always been to survive, explore, and build. As I do those things I let the progression happen slowly and naturally. I'm happy to make do without until I finally grow to a level where I can craft what I've been going without. I am not even tempted to make leveling up to the top in every progression system my main focus. Because of that, even Version 2 feels very open world and I always feel free to play in different ways and the sandbox feeling is still very much alive for me.

But someone who feels they must focus on progression systems as the primary path to playing the game is going to feel forced to do so every single time they play the game. So if magazines are in the game, that player must spend the early game focusing on finding magazines and that never changes from playthrough to playthrough. The only way to help that player is to remove that progression system. If it is there they will feel motivated to power through it first and foremost. We see this behavior again and again with quests and trader reputation. We see it with perks and skillpoints. We saw it with LBD when that was implemented. The number one complaint that I read about storms and biome hazards are that they superficially slow down progression with gating mechanics that disrupt players whose main focus is on moving up their progression ladders.

So that's why my idea is to remove all those ladders from the game for the survival sandbox mode. It can still be made to be extremely challenging--especially with options but ever since A11 the siren song of progression systems has lured players away from playing the game and toward playing the systems.

 

[Rotor]

An open world game where the player sets the agenda and determines their own end game is what we already have. Depending on how someone approaches the game it will feel more or less of a sandbox. I like progression systems and I like playing them without letting them be the focus of my agenda. My agenda has always been to survive, explore, and build. As I do those things I let the progression happen slowly and naturally. I'm happy to make do without until I finally grow to a level where I can craft what I've been going without. I am not even tempted to make leveling up to the top in every progression system my main focus. Because of that, even Version 2 feels very open world and I always feel free to play in different ways and the sandbox feeling is still very much alive for me.

Funny that I play that way, but ...

...cant stop and pick up water to boil while exploring. I have to go loot a PoI and hope it has toilet water in a jar .
...thank goodness that biome progression can be turned off
...
...God forbid that there might be a big citty in a RWG world forest.
...I rather suffer 10x RnGs than chase the holly relic of <insert favorite item here> hidden in a vendor, smoothie, badge <insert favorite developer gates here>.

"In Alpha 10 and below every item was just static and it was simply that an iron tool was better than a primitive tool."

Wow, do me running backwards in the snow.......sounds perfect to me.

There would be no waiting until a random book showed up in loot. Progression, as it was, was simply being able to gain the materials needed to craft the top tier equipment and our damaging ability was all dependent upon that gear and not a personal character stat that improved over the course of the game.

Not too bad, although there should be a learning on how to survive what the world is throwing at ya.

Now do I play games that are heavily storied base and therfore have such restricitons? Sure, I just dont see 7D2D as that type and therefor I rather have the option not to do it...........without modding.