Let's discuss Learn By Doing for hopefully the last time.

[OgreSlayeR]

TFP are currently at least engaging with Reddit over the Glass Jar issue and are open to feedback, so let's discuss this other hot button issue. In my opinion LBD was a fine system that a lot of people miss that just needed tweaking instead of out right removing like TFP often like to do unfortunately. One of TFP main arguments against LBD was you are just "spam crafting axes" which is something I don't understand. I've been playing A16 again recently and that was the best form of LBD they have ever done. For those who don't remember you can't just spam craft in A16, but rather you increase your tools, weapons etc crafting with perks which are gated by your level. I'm wondering if they played their game back then cause otherwise they would not make that spam craft argument.

I understand not everyone wants LBD back, but from the anecdotal evidence I'm seeing from all the posts / messages from various players over the years it appears to me MOST people do want this system back. Of course under A16 it was not perfect, but my hope is we can come up with a much better system that fits in the current 2.0 game and tries to satisfy the most amount of players possible. Personally I think we could create a system of LBD that also works with all the current systems to save TFP a lot of work rebalancing, reiterating and hopefully makes it sit well between the current systems. Below are some of my ideas for how it could work:

Learn By Doing:

1. Mining: Increased block damage when mining resources/digging terrain per level.
2. Woodcutting: Increased block damage when chopping trees and stumps per level.
3. Scavenging: Increased looting speed when looting per level.
4. Farming: Increased chance of farming yield per level. Could be growing much smaller % chance of a triple yield while harvesting crops and a higher growing % chance of double. (Living Off the Land perk would need to be changed/rebalanced)
5. Archery: Increased damage when using bows and crossbows per level
6. Firearms: Increased damage when using any firearm per level .
7. Melee: Increased damage when using any melee weapon including fists per level .
8. Animal Harvesting: Increased yield of animal hide and meat per level.
9. Cardio: Decreased stamina drain only while running per level.
10. Assassin: Increased sneak attack damage when making sneak attacks per level.
11. Bartering: Increased item value when selling items.

Faction system:

Increased amount of items offered from the trader when completing quests for the trader per level. Harder quests would give you more faction xp than easier ones. Each trader would have their own faction / xp bar. Maxing out Traders should not be too trivial and while maxed they could offer very high quality loot.

Perk system:

I'm not going to go big into big detail of all of the perks as they are in 2.0 , but obviously TFP would need to rebalance this. I will say I believe respecing should be encouraged with the Grandpa's Fergit'n Elixir and it should NOT reset the LBD skill levels. I think perks in general would complement the LBD well. You are getting lots of small increases with LBD and big increases with player levels that allow you to spec into whatever playstyle you are into.

Magazine system:

This is a polarizing system, but I believe it can still exist and work well with the other theoretical two skill systems. I personally would keep the magazines for the crafting skills cause it's much less annoying than spam crafting and makes more sense than just using skill points to increase your crafting skills. I think one of the main complaints is for MP with the magazines. What if while reading close to your friends while grouped up you all get credit for the magazine? This makes a lot more sense than eating the magazine and them getting no credit as you are now essentially sharing the knowledge with them. Honestly imo this is all they would need to do and this system doesn't need much touching.

Obviously this can be expanded upon and maybe even thought out better, but imo this is a great place for them to start. Thanks for reading and I appreciate any thoughts.

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[pApA^LeGBa]

I would like a learning by doing combined with perks and recipes. LBD for action skills, Perks for crafting and other stuff. Things like Living of the Land that would require too much time to do by LBD can also be a perk, And here and there books that can be found to boost the action skill and recipes for crafting to have a chance to craft things you don´t have put points into. Combine that with a level restriction so progression can´t be stupid fast.

 

[Charger265]

There are a lot of good points there.
I think finding a balance between the books and LBD system would work best.
The one thing that i really dislike is the need to hunt for books to progress. But i know at this point its not going away so a balance needs to be found.
Another one that i think really needs to be looked at is removing the need to be stuck in a perk tree.. If i want rifle knife and tools let me... Dont keep me stuck on clubs shotguns tools.
Focus on giving the freedom back to the player to create their own play-through and spec out their character how they wish.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

There are a lot of good points there.
I think finding a balance between the books and LBD system would work best.
The one thing that i really dislike is the need to hunt for books to progress. But i know at this point its not going away so a balance needs to be found.
Another one that i think really needs to be looked at is removing the need to be stuck in a perk tree.. If i want rifle knife and tools let me... Dont keep me stuck on clubs shotguns tools.
Focus on giving the freedom back to the player to create their own play-through and spec out their character how they wish.

Yeah that's why I designed the action skills with a more general approach. If I am good with melee don't limit just one weapon type for example. I do think you should still have to specialize some into perks and it should reward it, but I think weapon switching shouldn't be totally penalized either. It's down to balance.

I also saw many times the argument against LBD was because of respecing and with my proposal for keeping the action skill levels the same while respecing I believe it fixes that issue entirely.

 

[zztong]

it appears to me MOST people do want this system back.

I wish we had numbers. My perception is the opposite, but the trouble with forums is I (we) self-select the conversations and posts we read.

I could see some LBD with weapons if some part of the weapon damage formula used it, but I wouldn't get rid of the Perks in favor of it. If, for the sake of argument, 25% of the damage were based on a LBD value, then perhaps.

I could see applying that to block damage from tools too.

That's about it. I don't see applying it to stealth, bartering, cardio, farming. LBD seems kludgy applied to those subsystems. For instance, with LBD you're going to learn cardio from moving, which you would do anyways. Farming's outputs really don't have any resolution to express LBD subtlety. Bartering via experience trading seems ripe for abuse and we've already got a better metric that could be used for a more incremental approach to establishing a relationship with traders ... completed quests.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

I wish we had numbers. My perception is the opposite, but the trouble with forums is I (we) self-select the conversations and posts we read.

I could see some LBD with weapons if some part of the weapon damage formula used it, but I wouldn't get rid of the Perks in favor of it. If, for the sake of argument, 25% of the damage were based on a LBD value, then perhaps.

I could see applying that to block damage from tools too.

That's about it. I don't see applying it to stealth, bartering, cardio, farming. LBD seems kludgy applied to those subsystems. For instance, with LBD you're going to learn cardio from moving, which you would do anyways. Farming's outputs really don't have any resolution to express LBD subtlety. Bartering via experience trading seems ripe for abuse and we've already got a better metric that could be used for a more incremental approach to establishing a relationship with traders ... completed quests.

Well one sample size is the last Town Hall they had on Twitch. The main things being spammed by many different people were two things: Jars and LBD. I've seen it been said in many other places over the years so I think it's a fair statement to suggest it's a very popular idea.

I wouldn't get rid of perks with weapons, I do believe they could be rebalanced around LBD and specializing with your favorite weapon type should make you better with them than someone who doesn't. At the same time you would at least be decent with other weapons with the general newly proposed action skills just not quite as good. It all comes down to balance.

I see no reason why LBD can't fit neatly between the current design systems. Again, LBD gives you nice smaller increases over time which makes sense logically and the perks give you big increases with every player level that allows for some specializing.

 

[Sapient6]

I wish we had numbers. My perception is the opposite, but the trouble with forums is I (we) self-select the conversations and posts we read.

The real problem, to me, is that people who don't want LBD don't have any reason to post about it or spam a twitch stream about it. So the other side of the number is completely inaccessible.

I was happy when jars and cans were removed. Sure, realism, but also: inventory filling up with cans and jars was annoying as hell. My eventual solution back then was just to drop the empties and just craft replacements back at home (womp womp: the possible return of jars may not be craftable).

I have no interest in LBD. Not even a little bit. I might feel differently about it if I had ever experienced a LBD system in a game that didn't encourage loops of DULL rote activity for the purpose of Increase Number. Sure, running mailbox to mailbox is encouraged by the magazine system, but at least that forces you to go to new places as the mailboxes don't respawn their loot over time.

Side note: my all time favorite LBD system was the one in Morrowind. I liked that one because the world had trainers and you could craft spells. So you make a destruction spell that has the negative effect of -100 in your target skill for 30 seconds (very low mana cost: it's entirely negative effects), and you could train up that skill at a trainer all the way up to max but at a very low training cost because the trainer thinks you are a novice. It was my favorite LBD system because I could circumvent and abuse it in about 5 minutes.

 

[Charger265]

I also saw many times the argument against LBD was because of respecing and with my proposal for keeping the action skill levels the same while respecing I believe it fixes that issue entirely.

Yup action skills are a learned trait separate from the points system. So no re-spec on action skills within a game play. You can also use this system to improve item quality or stats / resource gain
pApA made a really good point that LBD does not really work for living off the land. So happy to have some form of perk/book system there.
Cooking would be anther one that would benefit from a system were the more you cook the faster the item crafts and the higher the food value.
Implementing things that reward the players for exploring all aspect of the game rather than pigeon holing them into a set style.
With co-op it also allows players to specalise their role in the group as they like and not be locked behind the set 5 play styles which hinders solo players the most.

I know the argument of "this will make it more grindy" But to be honest in the last 3 playthroughs by day 21 i have max spec'ed a tree. Able to do any tier 6 and not have a care. But that was playing to a specific play style to mid max progresssion and 60% of the time was spent book hunting as this is the only real reward to progress.
I think at the core its finding a system that rewards doing each action not just hunting for books is the key.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I wish we had numbers. My perception is the opposite, but the trouble with forums is I (we) self-select the conversations and posts we read.

I could see some LBD with weapons if some part of the weapon damage formula used it, but I wouldn't get rid of the Perks in favor of it. If, for the sake of argument, 25% of the damage were based on a LBD value, then perhaps.

I could see applying that to block damage from tools too.

That's about it. I don't see applying it to stealth, bartering, cardio, farming. LBD seems kludgy applied to those subsystems. For instance, with LBD you're going to learn cardio from moving, which you would do anyways. Farming's outputs really don't have any resolution to express LBD subtlety. Bartering via experience trading seems ripe for abuse and we've already got a better metric that could be used for a more incremental approach to establishing a relationship with traders ... completed quests.

This is where a mixed system of lbd and perks helps. Dunno why so many people are fixated on only having one.

 

[zztong]

Well one sample size is the last Town Hall they had on Twitch. The main things being spammed by many different people were two things: Jars and LBD. I've seen it been said in many other places over the years so I think it's a fair statement to suggest it's a very popular idea.

I wouldn't call that a sample and it didn't lead to numbers. I recall the chat and thought it was a couple of people spam posting the same thing again and again. The chat was thousands of people, but we've no way to know if it was a representative population. It was probably a subset of people with above average interest who happened to be available at the time.

The real problem, to me, is that people who don't want LBD don't have any reason to post about it or spam a twitch stream about it. So the other side of the number is completely inaccessible.

And this.

This is where a mixed system of lbd and perks helps. Dunno why so many people are fixated on only having one.

I worry a poor LBD system leads to goofy abuse, like AutoRun and standing by a wall.
I don't mind a hybrid system, but I worry it will confuse newer players.

I wonder if integrating certain LBD milestones in the Challenge system might make a good hybrid?

 

[Charger265]

Side note: my all time favorite LBD system was the one in Morrowind. I liked that one because the world had trainers and you could craft spells. So you make a destruction spell that has the negative effect of -100 in your target skill for 30 seconds (very low mana cost: it's entirely negative effects), and you could train up that skill at a trainer all the way up to max but at a very low training cost because the trainer thinks you are a novice. It was my favorite LBD system because I could circumvent and abuse it in about 5 minutes.

The same abuse argument can be used for the current book system. It can be done (and is done) in the current system by day 21 on max difficulty.
I guess the point im trying to get across is people will always find a way to exploit any system. Its human nature. But its also a game so you have the right to play it how you like. Want to exploit great off you go and do it.. dont want to exploit and like to role play more.. Play like that.

The LBD argument has been a long standing talking point from the day it was removed in A17. But as the current system has developed, the freedom to play as you like has been removed to a greater depth pushing this argument to the forefront of what made the game enjoyable for a large number of players who like putting long play periods in 200+ day playthrough solo.

The difficult part is finding that balance and yes im fully aware what ever system is put in place it wont keep everyone happy. The goal is to find the happy middle ground.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@zztong It works fine in Darkness Falls. People even get the wellness system after a while. And tbh if people are confused by a LBD/perk mix system, i doubt they can even live long enough in game to be worried about that. It´s not exactly rocket science.

People confused by a perk/lbd mix would also be confused by a magazine/perk system and the LBD/perk system makes way more sense. So no worries here.

And there will always be abuse. You can abuse the perk and magazine system as well. It´s called fergettin elixir and/or huntung down every mailbox and newspaper stand. You can get magazines super fast if you want. way too fast with nerd outfit and bookworm.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

This is where a mixed system of lbd and perks helps. Dunno why so many people are fixated on only having one.

I don't know why either and I am SICK of the same bad talking point from even TFP that LBD was just "spamming axes" when it's clear they didn't play 16.4 which gated crafting to perks that required a certain player level. 16.4 had the best form of LBD and for whatever reason they threw that away. People who remember that are the ones who want it back the most.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I worry a poor LBD system leads to goofy abuse, like AutoRun and standing by a wall.

Well, it doesn't have to be poor and goofy abuse is far from universal. Those who derive their enjoyment from gaming game systems will always find a way to game those systems not matter how well or poorly they're implemented. People who just want to play the game, otoh, aren't likely to do that. I never crafted hundreds of iron daggers in Skyrim to level smithing or, especially, just because I could. I honestly think it's a minority of gamers in general who do that sort of thing.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Yeah people like the spiffing brit or let´s game it out have shown that you can abuse every game if you want to. You just need to try hard enough and think outside the box.

There will never be a game that can´t be abused.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

I wouldn't call that a sample and it didn't lead to numbers. I recall the chat and thought it was a couple of people spam posting the same thing again and again. The chat was thousands of people, but we've no way to know if it was a representative population. It was probably a subset of people with above average interest who happened to be available at the time.



And this.



I worry a poor LBD system leads to goofy abuse, like AutoRun and standing by a wall.
I don't mind a hybrid system, but I worry it will confuse newer players.

I wonder if integrating certain LBD milestones in the Challenge system might make a good hybrid?

The Town Hall was just a recent example, but I see it constantly over YT,Reddit, Steam..you name it. You don't have to believe it, or see it, but either way I don't think this is important thing to focus on. I would rather discuss improving the game mechanics in a more interesting way with a system that existed in the past and how to fit in with current systems.

Also not buying the whole cheating/exploiting argument. You sound like TFP (The Fun Police) with regards to exploits. I can easily cheat with creative mode if I want and the game isn't some competitive game. Who cares, really? I'm sure there are ways to prevent some exploiting either way, but as I said who cares when I can just cheat if I want to. I'm sure they could tweak Cardio for example in a way that you couldn't just run into a wall or something.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

There will never be a game that can´t be abused.

Amen. I'd honestly like (but don't demand) TFP take more of the attitude of veterans like Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky, who've watched speed runs and marvelled at the creativity of speed runners. "How did he do that?" "Oh, that's how he did that."

 

[RipClaw]

Well one sample size is the last Town Hall they had on Twitch. The main things being spammed by many different people were two things: Jars and LBD. I've seen it been said in many other places over the years so I think it's a fair statement to suggest it's a very popular idea.

It could be a very vocal minority trying to make itself heard on every platform possible.

I really am in favor of LBD, but I'm under no illusion that my opinion reflects that of the majority of players. Most current players are likely familiar with LBD from other games, but they have never experienced its implementation in this game. I started in A15. Therefore, I am only familiar with its implementation in A15 and A16, which has already undergone several iterations.

 

[YourMirror]

I play melee mainly but have a gun for those “oh ■■■■” moments. Which are very rare. My gun would suck till endgame and beyond with LBD. With current system I can just spec into it and have fun. To me, that’s freedom.

 

[Kalen]

I think that there is zero chance they go back to a LBD system, as much as I wish they would.

However, If it were up to me, I'd want a full on LBD system like A14, not the hybrid system of A16. The most common complaint of LBD, at least that I've seen, from people that don't like it is the ability to do things like spam crafting to level up skills. I feel like if that were removed, fewer people would have a problem with it.

There are 2 major changes I would've made to the A14 system to curb abuse.

1. Items have a cap to skill increases. For example, crafting stone axes can only get you to a 25 skill.... then you'd need to switch to iron pickaxes to get to 75, and steel to get to 100. That would prevent someone from crafting stone axes on day 1 to max skill.

2. Slow skill progression if you are spamming. For example, you have 100% chance of getting a skill point when you craft something. When you do get that skill point you get a hidden debuff that drops the chance to 75%. If you get another skill point with that debuff, you get another debuff that drops the chance to 50%.... and so on. So eventually, you get no further skill points till you wait for the debuff to drop and you're back to 100%. Doing this would make spamming skills far less effective. If you're determined, you could still game the system, but just playing normally would be almost as effective, which should be the goal.