You've Stripped the Soul Out of 7 Days to Die

[8_Hussars]

Today, it's you vs 50 fetches, in a row. You can do other stuff while at it, but that's where the game mechanics want you to go. To the next "randomly selected" POI on a strict list of progressive difficulty.

I agree here. The trader-centric focus and the trader quest treadmill is my single biggest disappointment of the game.

 

[Suxar]

You left out the most significant change they implemented in a17,
5) the party system and the quest system.
Ultimately, the addition of these features severely impacted the game's survivability.
This occurred primarily because players began utilizing them to power level and acquire everything they required without the necessity of traversing the map, leading many to rely on traders rather than their own ability to survive.
In fact, I believe this is the main reason many individuals assert and stress that a16 was the best alpha, as it lacked these two disruptive features.

Well, I've been playing since A17 and have never relied on merchants. In A17 itself, more or less normal rewards appeared only starting from tier 4. And by the time you get there, as a rule, your equipment is already much better than what the merchant offers. In the A20 version, top items were much easier and faster to get from the trunks of cars scattered around the wasteland than from merchant rewards. The only thing that made life much easier was the loot itself for some quests, for example, excavations of the first tier gave a very decent amount of quality food. Now the food there is so-so, usually rotten meat, which you can't cook at first, and muddy water, which is easier to find in toilets. In 1.0, the rewards from merchants became more or less, they often began to have a set of magazines, but everything else is garbage in my opinion.

 

[Kyoji]

No disagreement about having mods or consumables to mitigate the damage of the storms to make it easier to play outside while they rage. I’m 99% certain they will continue to develop them in this way though modders will beat them to the punch.

As for the soft vs hard barrier, the old snow biome was a very hard barrier and you would slow and die within minutes. Used to spawn there and have to run hoping it was towards the border before the grace period expired. That doesn’t change your point that a softer barrier is preferred to a harder one. It’s just interesting that the barrier was hard before but it is remembered with fondness by those criticizing the current barrier.

Personally I don’t think the barrier is that hard with the timer that allows you to enter without any debuffs—just gotta watch the timer. And the recovery is super fast. Getting a few smoothies together gives you a completely soft barrier.

I agree that the snow biome was quite difficult with no winter clothing. I was using that as an example. I think if you recall how old desert was and how it offered a nice challenge to live there without making it impossible is a better representation as you would always be thirsty due to the heat. Since I hear the developers are wanting to re-add temperatures then it very well may see a return so I think we agree on the basics more than one might think.

Again it's not that the concept of progression is bad or that the idea of storms are bad. It's not. Just some suggestions on how to make it smoother, more seamless and better overall. Also, ironically I think the soft barrier should be longer lasting than how easy it is to move past the current iteration of badges. If you don't want progression you can turn it off but if you do then let's have some proper progression.

Heh... and yet, TFP isn't trying to please everyone. That's why people are upset. They want it their way and TFP keeps saying no. Just because they have a certain plan for the game and it differs from what you want doesn't mean they are trying to please everyone. It just means they aren't trying to please you.

This is very true. The developers, if I recall correctly, also state they don't read the forums for ideas either so this is all quite possibly a wasted endeavor. I think for sure that mentality applies to those who want to go back to Alpha 18 days where that is substantially less likely than making some minor changes to the current systems that just released in experimental.

Of course that being said they have reinvented the wheel like 40 times so there is that. The skill system in general has been through so many revisions I lost actual count.

 

[Riamus]

It's funny you say that, because the vast majority of sim geeks I've met -- and the ones you'll find on various message boards -- tend to be older professionals, generally in their 50's and 60's. Especially the flight sim and sub sim guys. It's rare to find younger people who are interested in hardcore sims because they are generally slow, "tedious." and don't offer much instant gratification.

The thing about getting older and doing well for yourself is that you have the luxury of spending your free time as you please.

Sims are a different thing. We were talking about hardcore survival. There's a difference. For a lot of people who love sims and love planes, spending a lot of time flipping switches in a plane sim (something I don't enjoy personally even thought I like sims) is fun because flying a plane or learning to fly one is something they are interested in. Take someone else who likes playing sims but doesn't have an interest in planes and sit them in front of a plane sim and they aren't going to appreciate it. Many others who love sims prefer sims that don't require a great deal of time spent to accomplish things. Sims may be considered a single genre, but different sims can be so different that they might as well be individual genres.

Now, take this game. You might get a few people who want to play this game just to cook. But most aren't playing this game because it offers cooking. It doesn't matter if they love sims. Most aren't here for that. They'll do it, and they might even like it. But they are here for other reasons. The biggest of those (I don't have stats, so can't give you actual breakdowns) will be fighting zombies, building, destroying the fully destroyable voxel world, and yes... even questing. If they come here for any of those things as their main interest, most aren't going to find themselves feeling like they have accomplished anything in a 1-2 hour window that they might have available after work if all they do during that time is cook.

 

[Roland]

The developers, if I recall correctly, also state they don't read the forums for ideas either so this is all quite possibly a wasted endeavor.

Not precisely. They don’t come to the forums looking for ideas because they need something to do but they do read and implement ideas from the forums. This newest update has a few changes that came directly from some forum posts. TFP isn’t allowing forum consensus (as much as it exists) to drive development but they’ve never read and like good ideas.

 

[Riamus]

And yet there's more busywork in this game than any I've ever played (thock-thock-thock) mostly due to the voxel nature of the game, I'm sure.

Facepalm if you like, but the general industry trend is there and a rift -- a split right down the middle -- exists in every community of every sort with which I'm familiar from the BGS vs. Obsidian feuds to the irresolvable rift between purveyors of liberalism and. conservatism. Somehow I think we humans forgot somewhere along the way that "versus" means "as opposed to" in the sense of balance and not necessarily competition or, heavens forbid, outright warfare, verbal and otherwise.

And a lot of it can be ignored or done in a short time. If I want to, I can play this game with 90%+ of my time spent questing and rarely spend time doing anything else. I don't have to spend time cooking -- start it and leave. I don't have to spend time gathering resources most of the time because I can get so much from salvaging or questing. And if I do need to mine or gather wood, I can do so in a very short time and have plenty. I don't have to spend time building a big base if I don't want to (I do want to, but the point stands).

In any case, my response to you was more than that one sentence. The point was that survival is still niche (and probably always will be), which means you're not going to get pure survival games very often. There just isn't enough fanbase to warrant it. Most pure survival games will come from devs who just love that genre themselves and want to make one and aren't so concerned about sales. For better or worse, that's just how it is. And it is true that people who only have 1-2 hours available to play games are going to be less likely to want to spend time on tasks that aren't involving active gameplay... cooking food over and over because it spoils, sitting around over and over waiting for a storm to pass so you can do something, etc. Will some find that enjoyable? Of course. Will most? No.

As far as people having different opinions... of course they do.

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 12:26 PM

True, 19:24 at the trader, storm rolling in. I can just die as I please.

Why would you die? I'm assuming you meant 21:24 so the trader will close soon, but even then... traders are near other POI. You won't die if you run from the trader to another POI.

I'll end up turning off hazards and storms because I hate gating or sitting around waiting for a storm to pass, but I also wouldn't ever making a lot of buildings just to allow running back to my base in the middle of a storm. If I'm doing that, then that means I am ignoring the storm mechanics, which means I should disable them. No reason to have the storms active if you are ignoring them.

 

[Riamus]

You left out the most significant change they implemented in a17,
5) the party system and the quest system.
Ultimately, the addition of these features severely impacted the game's survivability.
This occurred primarily because players began utilizing them to power level and acquire everything they required without the necessity of traversing the map, leading many to rely on traders rather than their own ability to survive.
In fact, I believe this is the main reason many individuals assert and stress that a16 was the best alpha, as it lacked these two disruptive features.

You call it an "addiction".... if that is really the case, then that means it will increase the game's survivability (assuming by survivability, you mean the game itself and not survival mechanics). People who are addicted to the game will keep playing it. People who aren't may not. Sounds like they made a choice that will help the game long term.

And you didn't give any reason why you think the party system is bad. It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not people explore the map or go to traders or do quests.

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 12:31 PM

Well, I've been playing since A17 and have never relied on merchants. In A17 itself, more or less normal rewards appeared only starting from tier 4. And by the time you get there, as a rule, your equipment is already much better than what the merchant offers. In the A20 version, top items were much easier and faster to get from the trunks of cars scattered around the wasteland than from merchant rewards. The only thing that made life much easier was the loot itself for some quests, for example, excavations of the first tier gave a very decent amount of quality food. Now the food there is so-so, usually rotten meat, which you can't cook at first, and muddy water, which is easier to find in toilets. In 1.0, the rewards from merchants became more or less, they often began to have a set of magazines, but everything else is garbage in my opinion.

Yeah, it is rare for me to buy anything from a trader. There's no reason to unless it's only available from them, or a situation like me being one magazine short of something I want to make and the trader has that one magazine.

People say traders are ruining the game, but they don't ruin the game if you don't use them. And if people are using them, then that's their choice. If they like that, then there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[theFlu]

Why would you die? I'm assuming you meant 21:24 so the trader will close soon, but even then... traders are near other POI. You won't die if you run from the trader to another POI.

Well, as it happens, I'm playing on a pregen map, the first one on the list; so feel free to check. Jen is about a klik away from the nearest POI, I made (iirc) 8 shelter boxes to reach it in 10 sec intervals. So, IF I start sprinting the moment I get the storm warning, I'll spend 80 secs getting there. That's one tick of damage, no biggy. The POI also happens to be the Army Post 7, so, have fun clearing a barracks for safety. There's others nearby there, but pick right while taking storm damage.

Given I even know the POIs are there, of course.

I said 19:24, I meant 19:24; as that was an actual moment that happened in my game. My first storm; didn't have a clue how long it'd last, still don't - at that point I wouldn't be surprised if it lasted all night from there.

Yes, there's plenty of options "not to die" there; there's a biome border there as well, you can try your luck with the other biome. But the situation doesn't have to be much worse for the "sit in a box or die" to be a perfectly valid description. Are there any guardrails for that not to be the case?
And my point was to argue the differences between "current storms" and "the olde wetness mechanic"; not to complain about dying.

In related news, I've had 5 storms by now, 3 of them started while at that trader... good for testing, I guess, but feels like the trader triggers them somehow

 

[Grandpa Minion]

And you didn't give any reason why you think the party system is bad. It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not people explore the map or go to traders or do quests.

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 12:31 PM

Ever since the introduction of the party system, players who form parties or teams have exploited it.
Since you are seeking reasons, here is one of many:
The party share game stage automatically assigns the lowest-ranked individual joining the highest game stage within the party.
In other words, teams or players can send their strongest player to the wasteland while the remaining team or party members benefit from the rewards in the pine forest.
This makes the party system overpowered for experience gain and game stage loot bonuses.
As I mentioned earlier, the party system has diminished the survivability aspect of the game.

 

[Riamus]

You could just stay at the trader if it isn't closing. I haven't played more than a few hours in 2.0, so haven't dealt with storms yet. I can't imaging they last more than a couple game hours. But maybe I'm wrong.

As far as the pregens having traders in the middle of nowhere... I never play those, so never noticed. That just seems a poor design to me, though I know they started doing that in 1.0. I don't like traders that aren't next to towns.

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 1:01 PM

Ever since the introduction of the party system, players who form parties or teams have exploited it.
Since you are seeking reasons, here is one of many:
The party share game stage automatically assigns the lowest-ranked individual joining the highest game stage within the party.
In other words, teams or players can send their strongest player to the wasteland while the remaining team or party members benefit from the rewards in the pine forest.
This makes the party system overpowered for experience gain and game stage loot bonuses.
As I mentioned earlier, the party system has diminished the survivability aspect of the game.

Faatal said changed how the party balance works, so it's not that bad anymore. But even so, that's just cheesing the game. If people want to cheese the game, it doesn't impact me since I'm not going to do that. I don't really care how other people choose to play. If they want to pogo stick their way to the top of a POI to get the loot room without doing the POI, let them. If they want to run into a higher biome for better loot, let them.

Also, don't forget that there is a distance limit to gain the party game stage changes. If you aren't close enough, you won't get it.

 

[theFlu]

I can't imaging they last more than a couple game hours. But maybe I'm wrong.

19:24 to 21:50 is two and half in-game hours. If you're slightly wrong, you're not only stranded in the storm, you're stranded in the storm at night, with feral spawns around.

As far as the pregens having traders in the middle of nowhere... I never play those, so never noticed.

I play those, because I assume they fulfill whatever checklist of features TFP wants the players to face. If traders are meant to be in the middle of nowhere, then I'll be here complaining about it _for a reason_ and not just a matter of stupid RWG luck. Esp for experimentals.

 

[zztong]

Not precisely. They don’t come to the forums looking for ideas because they need something to do but they’ve never do read and implement ideas from the forums. This newest update has a few changes that came directly from some forum posts. TFP isn’t allowing forum consensus (as much as it exists) to drive development but they’ve never read and like good ideas.

Huh? Maybe I'm the only one confused by that.

I think you're saying the Devs do read the forums and do sometimes find good ideas that they use, but they don't rely on the forums to guide development as they prefer their own professional judgement and goals.

 

[theFlu]

Huh? Maybe I'm the only one confused by that.

Nah, too many nevers in the text; or some such. I just figured to wait for edits before commenting ..

 

[Riamus]

Yeah, remove the two nevers and it makes sense.

 

[bwestdpm9]

Dear Dev Team & Fellow Survivors,​

Let me start with a sincere thank you.
I've been playing 7 Days to Die since Alpha 6. I've lived through its evolution—bugs, rebalance passes, feature overhauls. This isn't anger; it's concern. Not a rage-fueled rant, but an honest attempt to highlight what’s been lost—and what desperately needs reconsideration.
I’m writing this because I truly believe: the soul of 7 Days is being erased. Unless we call it out, we’ll be left with a Borderlands-style looter shooter wearing a zombie mask.

Let’s break this down honestly:

---

1. Every Game Now Starts the Same (on Default Settings)​

No matter what world seed you use, every single run follows this exact pattern:

• Spawn near a trader
• Loot a few buildings
• Craft a stone axe
• Do the trader's quests
• Run into the city
• Search for magazines
• Unlock the next trader
• Repeat

Even when you unlock Trader 2, 3, or 4, the loop doesn’t change—it just grows in size. More quests, more loot runs, more POIs. By Day 30, you’ve seen everything. It’s not dynamic. It’s not survival. It’s a linear loop.
What happened to sandbox freedom?

---

2. You Removed Features Instead of Fixing Them​

Many systems that gave 7 Days depth and immersion were removed—not reworked, not improved—just deleted:

Feature	Status
Smell system	Removed in Alpha 19. Never replaced.
Water jars	Removed in Alpha 20. Artificial progression cap.
Custom armor slots	Replaced by meta sets. No style, no creativity.
Farming in soil	Replaced by crop plots only—makes no sense.
Temperature effects	Nerfed. No real heatstroke or freezing.
Rain, wetness, storms	Just blurry visuals—no gameplay effects.
Random worldgen variety	Flattened. Biomes are samey, linear, and predictable.

These systems were core to survival gameplay. They forced the player to adapt. Their removal didn’t streamline the experience—it gutted the tension that once defined the game.

---

3. The New Skill System Forces One Playstyle​

Progression is now entirely locked behind random magazine drops.
You no longer level up by doing. You don’t improve by surviving. You improve by looting.

• Want to be a base builder or a crafter? You’re useless without specific magazines.
• Want to mine or farm in peace? You can’t progress without going to the cities or doing quests.

This punishes alternative playstyles:

• Miners
• Farmers
• Base-bound crafters
• Non-combat builders

Sandbox survival means letting players choose their path. This is the opposite of that.

---

4. Survival Is Nearly Nonexistent in Default Settings​

Let’s be honest: survival mechanics are almost cosmetic now.

Survival System	Current Status
Thirst & Hunger	Easily bypassed with vending machines/canned food.
Temperature	Nullified with biome badges. No tension.
Shelter & storms	Storms are just blurry visuals. No danger.
Wetness	No gameplay consequence. Just screen clutter.

These systems used to matter. You had to prepare. You had to plan. Now they’re just background noise.

---

5. By Day 30, There’s Nothing Left To Do​

Once you hit Tier 5 quests:

• You’re god-tier
• You’ve looted every POI
• There’s no fear, no pressure, no reason to build smarter
• You have every mod, every gun, every tool

The loop collapses.
You’re left with a base full of loot, surrounded by zombies that no longer matter, in a world that no longer challenges you.
No weather risk.
No temperature risk.
No thirst or hunger pressure.
No meaningful decisions.

---

6. Crops, Crafting, Clothing — All Gated​

This is where the illusion of sandbox really breaks down.

• You can’t plant seeds in the ground. You must use crop plots—even on fertile soil.
• You can’t craft a forge without the right magazine. Want to roleplay as a blacksmith? Good luck.
• You can’t wear what you want. Everyone wears the same armor because stats outweigh style.

This isn’t creative freedom. This is railroaded progression.

---

Update: 2.0 Makes Everything Worse​

The recent 2.0 update ("Storm's Brewing") doubled down on all the problems above.
You’re now forced into a rigid biome progression system:

• Loot is capped per biome
• You must earn badges to progress to the next biome
• Badges control whether you find better loot, not skill or survival

It’s no longer “survive the apocalypse.”
It’s “complete the challenge badge and graduate.”
You’ve replaced survival sandbox with quest-gated loot progression. It’s like WoW with zombies. Nothing says "immersive survival" like artificial badge challenges and loot locks.
Storms? They’re just worse screen clutter. They add zero gameplay pressure—just more fog and noise that gets in the way.

---

Final Thoughts – Let Us Survive Again​

You once had a survival game that let players:

• Be who they wanted
• Play how they wanted
• Endure the world, not just run a loot loop

Now we’re forced into:

• Loot
• Trader
• Badge
• Repeat

No one is asking for perfection. We’re asking for freedom. For variety. For systems that make us think, plan, and sweat.
Let us:

• Starve
• Freeze
• Struggle
• Craft
• Thrive

Don't turn this into another linear progression RPG. Don't turn it into another lifeless looter-shooter.
Please—give us back the survival game we’ve loved for over a decade.

With respect,
Annihilator

Sadly I agree with pretty much all of this. I know it’s a zombie game but “realism” makes it so much more entertaining and adds to replay value. Badges to go into a cold biome instead of needing fire or coats and insulation???? A smoothie drink? Even traders…seem a little odd.

The magazine scheme is so random and does take away from learning a skill by doing things which allows a player to develop how they want or how their group needs. To have to wait for 75 books to be able to plant a seed is just bizarre. But so is having to go to biomes after obtaining mystical badges instead of once you are leveled up and have good gear and feel able to make a run for some better loot and supplies. So easy to fix but all this time to add biome progression?

 

[EvilPolygons]

Sims are a different thing. We were talking about hardcore survival. There's a difference. For a lot of people who love sims and love planes, spending a lot of time flipping switches in a plane sim (something I don't enjoy personally even thought I like sims) is fun because flying a plane or learning to fly one is something they are interested in. Take someone else who likes playing sims but doesn't have an interest in planes and sit them in front of a plane sim and they aren't going to appreciate it. Many others who love sims prefer sims that don't require a great deal of time spent to accomplish things. Sims may be considered a single genre, but different sims can be so different that they might as well be individual genres.

Now, take this game. You might get a few people who want to play this game just to cook. But most aren't playing this game because it offers cooking. It doesn't matter if they love sims. Most aren't here for that. They'll do it, and they might even like it. But they are here for other reasons. The biggest of those (I don't have stats, so can't give you actual breakdowns) will be fighting zombies, building, destroying the fully destroyable voxel world, and yes... even questing. If they come here for any of those things as their main interest, most aren't going to find themselves feeling like they have accomplished anything in a 1-2 hour window that they might have available after work if all they do during that time is cook.

A sim is a sim. It doesn't matter what it's simulating. Survival games can be sims just as flight, sub, space, farming, hospital management, or any other kind. "Sim" simply means simulation, which is essentially a game with an extremely high degree of detail. Now, is vanilla 7DTD a hardcore survival sim? No. But that has nothing to do with the fact that you made a blanket statement about the kinds of people who are into more hardcore games.

It's fine if one isn't interested in that kind of game experience. It's not fine when one casts shade on others for having different interests. And yes, insinuating that anyone who enjoys hardcore survival games is an unemployed kid? That's definitely casting shade.

As I've said before, it's possible to talk about what one enjoys without criticizing others for the things they enjoy.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Sadly I agree with pretty much all of this. I know it’s a zombie game but “realism” makes it so much more entertaining and adds to replay value. Badges to go into a cold biome instead of needing fire or coats and insulation???? A smoothie drink? Even traders…seem a little odd.

The magazine scheme is so random and does take away from learning a skill by doing things which allows a player to develop how they want or how their group needs. To have to wait for 75 books to be able to plant a seed is just bizarre. But so is having to go to biomes after obtaining mystical badges instead of once you are leveled up and have good gear and feel able to make a run for some better loot and supplies. So easy to fix but all this time to add biome progression?

I agree with a lot of it, but I was never that bothered by the change to skill magazines. I mean, skills in these kinds of games are so abstracted anyway. Would I prefer learn-by-doing? Sure, I guess. I'm a realism nerd. But for me personally the magazines are an either/or kinda thing.

I'm a lot more disappointed by the biome badges and smoothies. They're just so gamey. I was hoping for something more like Metro 2033's masks and filters and other gear. The badges and smoothies feel like something right out of a causal mobile game.

 

[Rotor]

I sThe badges and smoothies feel like something right out of a causal mobile game.

More like console friendly and "quick" implementation.

 

[meganoth]

More like console friendly and "quick" implementation.

I think "quick" is the right word here. I really don't think they look at everything through a console lens except for performance.

Maybe they also wanted to make the achievement system have a real use. But it it really seems like a bad idea. Bad for immersion, bad for giving the player a vibe that is worse than the " bring me 10 pelts" quests of MMOs.

We have a quest system in the game and a crafting system, we have a mod system for armor. With just a little more effort we could have had an immersive way to get into new biomes and a new mod item that would have filled the spots left empty after removal of the temperature mods.

 

[meganoth]

Ever since the introduction of the party system, players who form parties or teams have exploited it.
Since you are seeking reasons, here is one of many:
The party share game stage automatically assigns the lowest-ranked individual joining the highest game stage within the party.
In other words, teams or players can send their strongest player to the wasteland while the remaining team or party members benefit from the rewards in the pine forest.
This makes the party system overpowered for experience gain and game stage loot bonuses.
As I mentioned earlier, the party system has diminished the survivability aspect of the game.

I partly agree: They never got the trader and all his rewards balanced correctly in the previous alphas, and the POI respawn for quests removed any need for exploration.