PC Why did you ruin your game?

[Kalen]

I was surprised by the results and don't at all think jars are more important than bandits and perhaps the people who watch these videos tend to lean one way more so than another but I was honestly surprised to see the how people voted.

I suspect you're right about the audience being predisposed to certain version of the game.

As far as bandits, I'm not really sure how I feel about them. Back when they were first announced (A17, A18?) I was pretty excited but over time, I've become more and more concerned about how they'll be implemented. Two things immediately spring to mind as potential problems (at least to me). First, I fear that they're going to have unlimited ammo. I would imagine that would be far easier to implement than to have the game track every bandits ammo supply. Second, I worry that a bandit shooting at me with an AK, is not going to drop an AK when I kill him. Honestly, that would annoy the crap out of me.

 

[Kyoji]

I suspect you're right about the audience being predisposed to certain version of the game.

I think it's a combination of all the things missing or lost. Nights are not scary, no real temperature, armor offering magic bonuses, water being too easy still and water sources having no value, parts quality offering 0-600 instead of the current 6 tiers, cities offer everything at your fingertips so there is no need to explore, quests give far too much value to realistically have anything else matter. I can go on, but regardless of whether anyone agrees with me the writing seems to be on the wall that there is some dissatisfaction with the current trending of the game. I like the current game, I do. But, I also would be remise if I didn't point out some things that could make it better in my opinion.

As far as bandits, I'm not really sure how I feel about them. Back when they were first announced (A17, A18?) I was pretty excited but over time, I've become more and more concerned about how they'll be implemented. Two things immediately spring to mind as potential problems (at least to me). First, I fear that they're going to have unlimited ammo. I would imagine that would be far easier to implement than to have the game track every bandits ammo supply. Second, I worry that a bandit shooting at me with an AK, is not going to drop an AK when I kill him. Honestly, that would annoy the crap out of me.

It's all guess work, but I do believe Laz stated they wanted to try giving remnant POIs some life by having bandits occupy them. If they can offer distractions from spamming quests then I think they will be very beneficial.

I also think you are taking the realism angle to the extreme. It's one thing to not enjoy magical armor bonuses or fantasy zombies, but we have suspensions of disbelief for a lot of game mechanics as it is such as not being able to fill used food cans with water or how eating one type of food doesn't kill you for lack of nutrients. So why would unlimited ammunition be a problem? In all the games you play how many NPCs run out of ammunition mid battle? Frankly that's silly. As far as the weapon drop concept I wouldn't expect that either. We have tires on cars. Why am I not getting 4 tires every time I dismantle a car? Again, some of the mechanics have to be "gamified" for ease of use and to allow people to enjoy the game.

I appreciate certain levels of realism, but there is a limit to that as well.

Either way for people asking for some stats on some of the systems. There you have at least one sample.

 

[Kalen]

I also think you are taking the realism angle to the extreme. It's one thing to not enjoy magical armor bonuses or fantasy zombies, but we have suspensions of disbelief for a lot of game mechanics as it is such as not being able to fill used food cans with water or how eating one type of food doesn't kill you for lack of nutrients. So why would unlimited ammunition be a problem? In all the games you play how many NPCs run out of ammunition mid battle? Frankly that's silly. As far as the weapon drop concept I wouldn't expect that either. We have tires on cars. Why am I not getting 4 tires every time I dismantle a car? Again, some of the mechanics have to be "gamified" for ease of use and to allow people to enjoy the game.

To each his own, but I don't feel that its taking it to an extreme. Having a bandit continuously shooting at me, while I, possibly, run out of ammo would annoy me. Its very much dependent on the role they play, however. Running into a few bandits in a POI wouldn't be a problem.... but if they have bandits that wander and possibly attack our bases that would be a far different situation where their having unlimited ammo would be a problem.

And yeah, every single game I've played where an enemy doesn't drop whatever loot they are clearly using annoys me.

Neither of these things are deal breakers, but, if it comes to pass, it would absolutely dampen my enthusiasm about bandits as a feature.

 

[theFlu]

Running into a few bandits in a POI wouldn't be a problem.... but if they have bandits that wander and possibly attack our bases that would be a far different situation where their having unlimited ammo would be a problem.

I'm about 99% convinced that they'll have infinite ammo; and that they will not drop the gear they're obviously wearing. It's mostly a balance thing, you wouldn't have to loot any gear from anywhere if you could always get a full set per bandit. They'd have to be stupidly dangerous (like actually being able to one-tap you with that hunting rifle they'd drop) and rare to warrant that type of drops.

And you'd probably have to lose all your stuff when losing to one. Risk / reward wouldn't really be balanced even then, you would kill one, stash the loot to not risk it and then kill another. But at least either you mug em or they mug you. Mug em!

Best case, they'll drop a good-for-parts low tier weapon of whatever type they're using and some type of "scrap armor" you can tear down for mats (not worth wearing, even if possible).

I'd kinda be all for "realistic" player-like bandits (actual gear, having similar stats as a player would), but it'd be ■■■■ punishing. Not fitting for the arcade looter shooter we have been going for for the last 7 patches.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

What is "proper" or "better" is entirely subjective. It's opinion, and everyone has their own opinions about what is good or bad and proper or not.

when it comes to opinions about comparing versions of the game, how much credit is giving to those who didn't even play the version in reference?
also for example how many of those playd multiplayer vs single player because i believe both play styles are completely different.

in multiplayer generally people want a fair, balanced game where everyone has the same advantage vs single player where most people turn on god mode.

so, when i post something im generally referencing the multiplayer community pve and pvp.

 

[Kyoji]

I'd kinda be all for "realistic" player-like bandits (actual gear, having similar stats as a player would), but it'd be ■■■■ punishing. Not fitting for the arcade looter shooter we have been going for for the last 7 patches.

Fallout is one of the few games that offers that feature that I can think of and it's more looter shooter than this game by far.

Most games don't have one for one drops.

Realism doesn't equal a better game and as you stated it would ruin the balance. If bandits were too strong it would also ruin the balance for early game or relegate them to wasteland only which is a worse tradeoff to not having limited ammo or accurate drops.

We went from wanting a bit more realism or believability to wanting a simulator. I'll pass on the Green Hell style gameplay.

 

[Riamus]

when it comes to opinions about comparing versions of the game, how much credit is giving to those who didn't even play the version in reference?
also for example how many of those playd multiplayer vs single player because i believe both play styles are completely different.

in multiplayer generally people want a fair, balanced game where everyone has the same advantage vs single player where most people turn on god mode.

so, when i post something im generally referencing the multiplayer community pve and pvp.

You are mixing multiplayer with PVP. In co-op multiplayer, balance and advantage aren't usually as important. It is fine to have people with different builds that play differently. It is when it is PVP or competitive that balance is really important. In this game, where it is designed for co-op, there isn't anything wrong with different weapons having different uses, where someone using one weapon is going to be potentially better than someone using another, at least in certain situations.

You also make a wholly incorrect assumption that most people play god mode in single player. Unless you only mean they enable it once in a while for something - such as because they are looking around a map they made to check for problems, or are testing a POI for bugs and aren't really playing the game. For normal gameplay, I am pretty certain the vast majority of solo players do not use god mode.

Regardless, opinions are still only opinions. What one person likes, another will not. Even if you're only talking to PVP players. And you definitely will have different opinions if you talk to both PVP and PVE players. As far as whether or not someone's opinion is worthwhile because they may not have played a specific version or a specific mode of play (single player, multiplayer PVE, PVP, etc.).... everyone's opinion is valid. Most gamers have played many different games and know how things work. And even if they haven't, they know what they like. You may occasionally get someone who changes their mind after trying something different, but people tend to be set in their ways and prefer certain things and you won't change their opinion.

PVP shoots itself in its own foot. It purposely makes other people hate PVP due to how much of the community treats others. Things like killing people who are low level or preventing people from accessing something like a trader or just being jerks to everyone. As long as PVP acts like that, it will never become popular among the majority of players. It is possible to play PVP and treat others with respect, and if PVP players did so, there would probably be more people interested in it.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

once again your going off your pre answer check list trying to make it a pvp issue, stick to reality please.
The question i asked is extremely important because someone who didn't play a16 and prior wouldn't have no knowledge to what people are even talking about.
Their opinion would be biased to the current state of the game they play.

 

[Riamus]

once again your going off your pre answer check list trying to make it a pvp issue, stick to reality please.
The question i asked is extremely important because someone who didn't play a16 and prior wouldn't have no knowledge to what people are even talking about.
Their opinion would be biased to the current state of the game they play.

Which wouldn't change whether or not they like the game. And your assumption was still wrong.

Besides you replied to my comment that opinions are just opinions and people have different views that can't all be made possible. Nothing you said is a response to that other than to try to pretend that only people who have played from day 1 and play every mode matter. Sorry, but your pretend hours didn't make your opinions more valid than anyone else's. If someone have played a certain version, they can still have an opinion about it. It isn't like it is difficult to see how old versions worked. There are plenty of videos and information available to show that. And in the end, as I stated, you might sometimes get someone to change their mind after they try something that they originally didn't think they would like, but that is not common.

Consider that if someone's opinion didn't matter if they didn't do something first, then almost no one here had an opinion that matters because almost no one is a game developer. See how dumb that sounds?

 

[Kalen]

I'm about 99% convinced that they'll have infinite ammo; and that they will not drop the gear they're obviously wearing. It's mostly a balance thing, you wouldn't have to loot any gear from anywhere if you could always get a full set per bandit. They'd have to be stupidly dangerous (like actually being able to one-tap you with that hunting rifle they'd drop) and rare to warrant that type of drops.

I'm not really sure how much it would imbalance things, to be honest. I would suspect you're not going to be taking on bandits until you have decent weapons yourself.... so if you're killing one with your AK and he drops his AK, so what? Its not like the old days where you could combine them to make a better version. You could kill a squad of bandits who each drop an AK and you just get a bunch of things to sell to a trader. Not really all that game breaking.

And worst case scenario, maybe you manage to kill a bandit with primitive weapons and get his gun in return.... well, IMO, that should be your reward since the risk is high.

I dont expect that will be the case, I would think their loot will be similar to zombies, maybe a little better.... just saying it would annoy me.

 

[theFlu]

so if you're killing one with your AK and he drops his AK, so what?

The AI. You burn one through a wall with molotovs from your first T1 quest while having no pants to your name; free AKs for everyone. And full sets of armor. The AI won't be uncheesable, not in this game.

Next best option would be to spawn them only carrying equivalent tier stuff of what you have, but we'd end up cheesing that too; either get one Good thing from a trader and farm yourself free gear again, or spawn them in naked and then gear yourself up for an easy fight.

It'll be yellow bags, can't see another way tbh.

 

[Kalen]

The AI. You burn one through a wall with molotovs from your first T1 quest while having no pants to your name; free AKs for everyone. And full sets of armor. The AI won't be uncheesable, not in this game.

Next best option would be to spawn them only carrying equivalent tier stuff of what you have, but we'd end up cheesing that too; either get one Good thing from a trader and farm yourself free gear again, or spawn them in naked and then gear yourself up for an easy fight.

It'll be yellow bags, can't see another way tbh.

Ok, yeah good point.... I honestly didnt think of it that way.

 

[Rotor]

I think they will also have the latest laser guided skynet targeting systems.

You want end game? Bandit only PoIs and you better have your latest and greatest upgraded doom slayer armor.

Not my cup of tea in this game, but I fear the worst.

Should really concentrate on glass jars type stuff, for example.

 

[Roland]

Maybe they will implement a yeti-style bandit who bends down, forms a glass jar, and then throws it at you causing lacerations on impact. They could make it so players who timed it right could catch them out of the air and that would be the ONLY way to get glass jars in the game.

 

[ALEXZANDER]

They ruined a good game because: 1) half of community (especially youtubers) were swallowing all terrible decisions made by devs since 17 alpha until 2.0 came and youtubers finally started talking about bad game state, while it already was clear that since 17 alpha the game is moving in a strange direction (where they removed tons of stuff with no adequate explanation) 2) TFP stopped to care about game after 15 alpha (yes in 16 they removed some stuff but it wasnt critical, was just a beginning and A16 still was ok) + they saw that players didnt question enough their actions - so they continued ruining game since 17 alpha! Idk how else to explain this! 3) They promissed a lots of things and still didnt achieved it (kikstarter included) + After 2.0 release, the chosed to milk the suckers on new overpriced skins which were suppose to be released before directly in game craftables (because a sucker is not a mammoth, it won't die out), no offence its just a harsh truth!

 

[Kyoji]

Next best option would be to spawn them only carrying equivalent tier stuff of what you have, but we'd end up cheesing that too; either get one Good thing from a trader and farm yourself free gear again, or spawn them in naked and then gear yourself up for an easy fight.

That could be somewhat of a fix. You have bandits tied with game stage like loot in general. So day one you are fighting against pipe weapons with a small gradient range (maybe one or two will have a pistol, etc).

The "bandit game stage" could be influenced by days played, loot stage, biome and tiles. Each increase in loot stage and days would increase the difficulty of bandits. Likewise harder biomes would spawn more challenging bandits with perhaps a tier difference in difficulty. This would allow you to, in theory with temperature back, brave the elements and the more difficult zombies and storms to fight against harder/larger bandit groups to get a pistol, hunting rifle, etc day one if you could manage that.

In this way, while I can't think of a reasonable solution for running out of ammunition at least you could have a chance at a more realistic loot system. Perhaps not every bandit will drop gear, but you would have a better shot at it that a simple loot bag drop from zombies as an example.

 

[theFlu]

The "bandit game stage" could be influenced by days played, loot stage, biome and tiles.

This is already what the loot stage does; I have no doubt it will be applied to bandit drops. But the "absolute realism" that Kalen was hoping would make looting POIs pointless. You get roughly one piece of gear per POI, and it might not fit your plans; for a single bandit to be dropping a full set gear, even if "game stage -appropriate", all your gear would be from bandits.

With the recent trend of making the entire game suitable for new players, I can't see TFP making bandits actually even that hard; if they drop any significant loot, they'll be loot pinatas for anyone who's played an FPS before this title.

 

[RipClaw]

This is already what the loot stage does; I have no doubt it will be applied to bandit drops. But the "absolute realism" that Kalen was hoping would make looting POIs pointless. You get roughly one piece of gear per POI, and it might not fit your plans; for a single bandit to be dropping a full set gear, even if "game stage -appropriate", all your gear would be from bandits.

There might be a way to limit loot without losing realism. For example, if you only got parts or broken gear from bandits most of the time.
Imagine that you kill a bandit with an AK-47, but you only get a completely broken AK-47 that cannot be repaired. You could only scrap it for parts.

 

[Kalen]

There might be a way to limit loot without losing realism. For example, if you only got parts or broken gear from bandits most of the time.
Imagine that you kill a bandit with an AK-47, but you only get a completely broken AK-47 that cannot be repaired. You could only scrap it for parts.

I could get behind that

 

[theFlu]

There might be a way to limit loot without losing realism.

I .. don't really mind either way. Just mainly pointing out that realism and balance don't really go hand in hand that easily.

I'd be fine with any of the following:
- Completely realistic drops, but limiting most bandits to pipe tier; nothing's saying the bandos need to be superior to us, just dangerous in their own way (distinct from zombies). All the pipe loot you want, but who wants it .. ? (maybe add bandit gear that is statwise roughly the Primitive Set but looks more menacing)
- Dropping thematic loot on rare occasion. Like a 5% chance of getting that lever action.
- Dropping dysfunctional weapons; not a fan myself, once I've killed a couple the fact that the weapon broke exactly as I killed the mob starts grating me more than getting no drops at all. But it'd be .. "something".
- Dropping random stuff, like the contents of the yellow bag; not sure if I care if they drop the "realistic" type of ammo, it's random anyway. (and maybe don't drop books unless you're implying they're too stupid to read... )
- Dropping nothing.. only a tad worse than any of the above IMO, and a whole lot easier to balance