PC When will A17 experimental be released 3?

[JCrook1028]

No, the return is not "steady alpha's". That is an illusion you built in your own mind. You bought the ability to play as it builds with the understanding that it may never complete. Period. End of story. Anything else you expect is your own illusion.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Does that mean that I cannot hate (i dont) them for it?

The promise for a full game is there. While I can't (as far as i know) take legal action against EA games not releasing/releasing in an unfinished state, I can be disappointed. I can ask for more and I can be disgruntled if progress is so slow you can barely see it.

The fact that you defend it, just because they are legally allowed to do it is something that infuriates me to no end. Because it is used to justify EVERYTHING whenever you give criticism.

"Star Wars: Last Jedi was bad!" 'just don't see it' "but it ruined the franchise I have grown to love" 'its not your franchise and disney can do whatever they want'

YES OBVIOUSLY. That doesn't mean that I can't be disgruntled, tell others about it and tell them not to buy the game/never to buy games from that Developer ever again.

For example I wont touch an EA game until I see change in their way of making games.

I bought Jurrasic World full price because Planet Coaster (same studio) gave us huge updates over months.

Same with TFPs. Next time they release an EA title, I will hesitate to buy it. Because I know their development starts slowing down dramatically after the big sales have faded (thats a baseless accusation, but it only is baseless, because they don't share enough.)

If you take ANYTHING out of this for the future:

EVERYONE has the right to criticise anything and voice their opinion. Especially when they paid for something that doesn't turn out to be about what they expected.

DON'T reply. Just let it sink in. Try and understand what I have said and why any argument based on "they are not legally wrong" is not an argument to brush away criticism.

 

[Roland]

If you take ANYTHING out of this for the future:

EVERYONE has the right to criticise anything and voice their opinion.

and then...

DON'T reply. Just let it sink in. Try and understand what I have said and why any argument based on "they are not legally wrong" is not an argument to brush away criticism.

If everyone has the right to criticize anything and voice their opinion then why can't they criticize your arguments? Why tell someone "Don't reply and just let it sink in"?

See, I actually believe your first statement as a general rule but you don't. You want to be able to give your viewpoint in a vacuum and not have to read any counterpoint to what you write. That doesn't equal a discussion in a public forum. That equals writing your thoughts in your journal and leaving it in your nightstand drawer....

You voice your opinion.

Someone disagrees with counterpoints

You disagree with counterpoints

Readers read both and decide for themselves which is more compelling

NOT

you voice your opinion

Someone disagrees with counterpoints

You tell people not to reply and let your opinion sink in

Discerning readers will read THAT and dismiss your viewpoints summarily. If your opinion can withstand scrutiny and counterargument then it is worthy of respect even if not everyone will agree.

I've been reading the recent negative reviews and they all have in common one thing. The reviewer has turned off comments...lol

That is the surest sign of a weak argument only beating out resorting to personal attacks by a slim margin.

Now I welcome any response to this post disputing what I've said or illustrating why it is that those who criticize the game should be able to do so without those who have opposing views being able to respond. I'm willing to let my stance sink into the minds of the readers as they read the responses of those who disagree and they decide which opinion make the most sense for them.

 

[Kattla]

Deadlines are insolvable in TFP.

edit: And i like it that way.

 

[Roland]

It's why their name is not The Deadline Pimps.

 

[Guest]

I've been reading the recent negative reviews and they all have in common one thing. The reviewer has turned off comments...lol

That is the surest sign of a weak argument only beating out resorting to personal attacks by a slim margin.

Ah, the good old "if you don't open yourself up to getting annoyed to death by developer acolytes, your opinion is invalid"-argument.

 

[JCrook1028]

Does that mean that I cannot hate (i dont) them for it?The promise for a full game is there. While I can't (as far as i know) take legal action against EA games not releasing/releasing in an unfinished state, I can be disappointed. I can ask for more and I can be disgruntled if progress is so slow you can barely see it.

The fact that you defend it, just because they are legally allowed to do it is something that infuriates me to no end. Because it is used to justify EVERYTHING whenever you give criticism.

"Star Wars: Last Jedi was bad!" 'just don't see it' "but it ruined the franchise I have grown to love" 'its not your franchise and disney can do whatever they want'

YES OBVIOUSLY. That doesn't mean that I can't be disgruntled, tell others about it and tell them not to buy the game/never to buy games from that Developer ever again.

For example I wont touch an EA game until I see change in their way of making games.

I bought Jurrasic World full price because Planet Coaster (same studio) gave us huge updates over months.

Same with TFPs. Next time they release an EA title, I will hesitate to buy it. Because I know their development starts slowing down dramatically after the big sales have faded (thats a baseless accusation, but it only is baseless, because they don't share enough.)

If you take ANYTHING out of this for the future:

EVERYONE has the right to criticise anything and voice their opinion. Especially when they paid for something that doesn't turn out to be about what they expected.

DON'T reply. Just let it sink in. Try and understand what I have said and why any argument based on "they are not legally wrong" is not an argument to brush away criticism.

If it "infuriates you to no end" that you got exactly what was promised to you when you bought in then again, that is your own personal problem. Yes you can be disgruntled. Yes you can tell people to not buy. Yes you can look like a spoiled brat and a fool. It's all your choice.

 

[vonbruening]

- - - Updated - - -

Ah, the good old "if you don't open yourself up to getting annoyed to death by developer acolytes, your opinion is invalid"-argument.

Do you exists outside internet reality? because that's has to be the dumbest cop-out i have ever heard. because there was this time when people were killed over their alternate views.

 

[Guest]

- - - Updated - - - because there was this time when people were killed over their alternate views.

You'll be happy to hear this still happens in the present day, so my "cop-out" is even dumber!

Now, lemme go back to "outside internet reality", before you destroy me even further, lol.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

@Roland: and people like you are the reason why my texts become walls of text because I try to think of EVERY SINGLE HOLE anyone may want to pick in my argument.

I did not say "dont voice your opinion".

What I meant was "don't reply (after reading this) because you are probably in an argumentative state and nothing I will ever say will get through. Let it sink in. Evalute it. And if you still think that what I'm saying is wrong, tell me."

@JCrook:

have you read my comparison with the cake?

Just because they haven't promised me to finish it, it still is something that can be generally viewed as "a contract".

I TECHNICALLY get everything I paid for. But if no EA game ever finished, nobody would ever buy them. Because the baseline is "you update the game until its playable and hopefully in a limited timeframe".

Why do you think ppl are downvoting EA games that are never released/released unfinished?

How would you feel if you bought an EA title, only to find there is absolute standstill and after 4 years they "officially" release v1.0

Its exactly what you were promised when you bought into it.

And if you agree with this mentality, then we have VASTLY different views on economy and consumer behaviour.

Some things are to be expected, even if they aren't explicitly stated as a goal.

 

[Gazz]

I really only wanted to say that I appreciate any comparison to cake.

How would you feel if you bought an EA title, only to find there is absolute standstill and after 4 years they "officially" release v1.0

If that's Electronic Arts - normal.

If Early Access - normal. (because it's kinda the whole point that the game is in development)

It's not so uncommon that in-development titles get canceled completely. "The public" only knows about a handful of those. I don't see this happening here so... you're welcome!

 

[Jedo]

Well everything you said was unconditionally. What you said has no consequence if it doesnt happen.

Then you've misinterpreted. My questions were a response to someone saying that a significant delay equals a failure. I was asking whether other significant delays equal a failure, with the implication being that none of my examples would be considered a failure. (Well, not to any rational person.)

While I can't (as far as i know) take legal action against EA games not releasing/releasing in an unfinished state, I can be disappointed. I can ask for more and I can be disgruntled if progress is so slow you can barely see it.
The fact that you defend it, just because they are legally allowed to do it is something that infuriates me to no end. Because it is used to justify EVERYTHING whenever you give criticism...

If you take ANYTHING out of this for the future:

EVERYONE has the right to criticise anything and voice their opinion. Especially when they paid for something that doesn't turn out to be about what they expected.

I've said this before: You surely can string together whatever words you want to, but there are some caveats here.

1) Telling TFP how they should do things or that such-and-such way would be some vague notion of "better" simply is not valid because of your (and everybody else's on the forum) position. There is not a one-size-fits-all model, and we don't have all of the information. Again, you can say whatever you want (within the confines of the forum rules), but those arguments won't have any traction.

2) It is reasonable for you to be upset about unmet expectations, but there are some caveats here also.

a) Your unmet expectation is a delay in production, and while frustrating, it will save you a lot of time and energy if you would reserve judgment. After all, delays happen in this world all over the place--some are outside of the control of pretty much everybody and some are chosen because it will result in significant gains to the product. I was super upset (for a day) when the New Mutants movie was pushed back a year, but if the reshoots make it better, I will be totally fine with it. If, in the end, I wait for a year for a product which wasn't worth that wait, then my renewed disfavor will be better placed.

b) Your unmet expectation is unrealistic. If you were told upfront to expect one thing, but you created a different expectation in your mind which was unmet, then the problem lies with you. Feel free to be upset, but it isn't TFP's fault. This happens with people all the time, and it stems from our ability to talk ourselves into a state of denial. "It won't really be like they say." or "That's probably true for other people, but I'm an exception." In the end, when the stated expectation comes true, you have nobody to blame that your expectation wasn't met except for yourself.

Anyway, I expect that you will vehemently argue against this, but don't expect me to agree with your position in anyway. We'll see whether you take me at my word.

 

[Gazz]

Game development is not like assembling Ikea furniture. (assuming that all parts were included)

Sometimes people expect a certain release date (whether stated or not) and if that isn't met

by this fiendish treachery.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

@Jedo:

Yeah but you are comparing apples and oranges At least in my mind.

This game is not unconditionally. The condition beeing, that I paid for access (which i didn'T have in A14&15 btw ).

I have invested something and expect some sort of return.

A child beeing born 2 weeks later is not a failure, because there is no (additional) investment required. But if the father has taken 2 weeks off to be their for mother and child, then there is.

If a movie gets pushed back then there is no(additional) investment taken.

But if you have booked and paid for a ticket on releaseday, where you have taken a day off and it THEN becomes delayed, there is.

You see what I mean? If you have a problem with that is a different story. Maybe you don't care. And obviously I have an understanding in game development and patience... but that will wear off someday. For some it wears off after a few weeks... for some after months or years.

1) I don't think anyone DEMANDS TFPs to listen to them. (well there are always some pricks who do) but if there is a problem and you give them hints how to fix it or complain that it isn't fixed, that is not an irrational thing to do. And if they ignore you completly, you have the right to get mad.

2) generally not wrong. but as I have stated.

-If the plumber tells you he'll come "after 1pm" and he shows up at 10pm... he told you when he would come. If you had different expectations, then this is your problem.- Is not valid, because there are generally some social/economic and other rules and values that contribute to our expectation. As I have said. Legally, the plumber is not in the wrong (maybe some law only allows him to come until 8pm or something but u know what i mean), that doesn'T mean that you have no grounds to complain. It is not your "faulty expectations".

PS: sometimes i get condescending, when ppl don't see what I mean. Please do not be offended... its a personal flaw and not an attack on you

 

[Jedo]

The man brings up a good point that maybe I (and others) do not make clearly: Be offended (or upset) if you want, but it seems like a waste of time. What you argue in your offence, though, is open for debate.

 

[Jedo]

@Jedo: Yeah but you are comparing apples and oranges At least in my mind.

This game is not unconditionally. The condition beeing, that I paid for access (which i didn'T have in A14&15 btw ).

I have invested something and expect some sort of return.

A child beeing born 2 weeks later is not a failure, because there is no (additional) investment required. But if the father has taken 2 weeks off to be their for mother and child, then there is.

If a movie gets pushed back then there is no(additional) investment taken.

But if you have booked and paid for a ticket on releaseday, where you have taken a day off and it THEN becomes delayed, there is.

What you are describing and what I am describing are apples and oranges. Things being delayed is not a failure. It's the nature of stuff in this world. That is my point. In your examples, the "failure" actually is on the part of those who foolishly made other plans which did not leave room for potential delays.

1) I don't think anyone DEMANDS TFPs to listen to them. (well there are always some pricks who do) but if there is a problem and you give them hints how to fix it or complain that it isn't fixed, that is not an irrational thing to do. And if they ignore you completly, you have the right to get mad.

Ummm...no. You can give suggestions (on game stuff, not business model/development stuff), but they have no reason or responsibility to listen to you. You may waste your time and effort getting mad that they ignore you (as anybody could), but it is not justified.

2) generally not wrong. but as I have stated. -If the plumber tells you he'll come "after 1pm" and he shows up at 10pm... he told you when he would come. If you had different expectations, then this is your problem.- Is not valid, because there are generally some social/economic and other rules and values that contribute to our expectation. As I have said. Legally, the plumber is not in the wrong (maybe some law only allows him to come until 8pm or something but u know what i mean), that doesn'T mean that you have no grounds to complain. It is not your "faulty expectations".

You are correct that there likely are social customs at play which would make his arrival so late at night inappropriate. That social custom/contract does not apply here because of the nature of EA. You bought and paid for the game as it was, and you get continued access to the development. If you expect more than that, that is your problem. You already have received your product in full. The rest is bonus. You have no grounds to complain that you did not receive the bonus. If your work says that they would like to give everybody a bonus, and at the end of the year are unable to, you have no grounds to complain. You received your regular check as you are owed, and there was no promise or contract to give you the bonus. If you already made plans for that money (or already spent it), the problem lies with you. Notice: In these scenarios, you can be disappointed that you did not receive the bonus, but it was not owed to you and you have no right to demand it.

 

[deathless]

I think we need a sunday gameplay video.

 

[Gmad03]

Well after today would be 3 weeks without a new video from madmole. In his previous video he talked about maybe a video the following week I wonder if this will be the week.

 

[Space4Ace]

Well after today would be 3 weeks without a new video from madmole. In his previous video he talked about maybe a video the following week I wonder if this will be the week.

Madmole said "probably" so that's never a guaranty. I'm sure there's other priorities... Like taking a weekend break maybe?

 

[Jacoviz]

I think we need a sunday gameplay video.

I think that too