Whats the logic behind eatting and smelling after.

[Old Crow]

I haven't really seen anyone saying that the smell system is bad. Some of us just think that certain foods shouldn't smell. In your example of cat food, I think you aren't considering this in your example...

The cat food hasn't been eaten already. It isn't in your stomach. Could they smell it from blocks away if you had eaten it? I really doubt it. They'd have to smell it on your breath, which is definitely not likely from blocks away. And even then, it would only be while you have your mouth open. I've mentioned in another post that having the smell be there for a short time after eating when breathing hard (out of stamina) would make sense and then not have it smell after eating when you have stamina. Or if you stay in the same place as where you ate it, it could leave a lingering smell, but if you left the area, the smell would remain in that area rather than follow you (unless you are breathing heavily, if you wanted to implement that kind of thing).

In the end, I don't think anyone suggests not having raw meat or meat-based food smell. And certain other foods like chili could smell. But other kinds of food don't make much sense. Take corn or potatoes as an example. Zombies aren't targeting your corn or potatoes in your farm, so why are they targeting you when you eat them? We don't have fruit trees, so pears don't have the same kind of example, but pears have very little smell and I can't really see zombies being that interested in the smell of pears. And that example is one that seems to be a common thing people think doesn't make sense.

You could make it so certain foods have smell and others don't, which doesn't worsen the smell system, but instead it makes it more interesting. Why? Because now you have to decide whether or not to make the food you prefer to make (I think most people make meat-based foods unless they are making vegetable stew) or instead make food you normally don't make so you don't have smell when eating it. Having to strategize what you are cooking adds to the smell system rather than taking away from it, imo.

Thank you for putting typed words to my exact thoughts.

First of all, it's a very fun mechanic. You have to put thought into when and where you need to eat. Secondly, I think it's plausible they can smell stuff from a long distance. If I put cat food outside, the coons smell it from blocks away possibly further as well as stray cats and show up like clockwork to eat it, even though they are never ever seen until we put food outside. Dried cat food, nothing delicious and if they can smell it then it's plausible a zombie can smell it. They have a single focus, to eat flesh, so it would be plausible their sense of smell is good to support that.

Finally we wanted to one up the old smell system. It's a lot of fun to only be on during hunting. A lot of interesting player stories can happen now. I didn't have any jars so I drank ditch water, got dysentery, farted and ferel zeds showed up and killed me. It was the best death story ever lol.

It IS a fun mechanic, but this line "You have to put thought into when and where you need to eat." is a bit silly. If I'm hungry and below 50% or less on hunger, why do we need to put thought into it? It's time to eat. No thought required.

Despite the really bizarre thoughts that run through your head, Joel, I have to say that I really am enjoying 2.5 a LOT. You guys are back on the right track with this one, and I'm glad you guys found your way again.

 

[Riamus]

but this line "You have to put thought into when and where you need to eat." is a bit silly. If I'm hungry and below 50% or less on hunger, why do we need to put thought into it? It's time to eat. No thought required.

Well, to be fair, the idea is that you might not want to eat when you're in the middle of a POI as it can draw a lot of zombies toward you if they are spawned already. So that is where he's looking at it being something you need to think about.

However, this doesn't really work in reality. Zombies that aren't spawned can't react to you eating food. So if you kill the room you're in and then pause to eat, you're not very likely to attract many zombies. You might get a couple from outside if they happen to be really close to the POI, and if there are any spawned zombies that you haven't yet seen/killed, they could be attracted to it, but if you can complete the POI, it isn't going to hurt to have zombies in the next room (if they are spawned) come to attack you because you ate something. It wouldn't be any more difficult than if you went into that room to kill them. About the only time it could cause any increased challenge is if you draw some in from outside, but you'd need a large smell area for that to happen. And I thought I saw faatal mention that smell is reduced when inside, so that is even less likely to happen. You're actually more likely to have trouble from screamers than from eating food. So in theory, it sounds like it could make you think about whether or not to eat, but the reality is that most people are just going to eat when they would normally eat and if they have to deal with some zombies because of it, they'll just do so. So it doesn't really make you put any extra thought into whether or not to eat. At least, I don't see any reason not to eat when I'm hungry, no matter where I am or what is around me. And I really don't think most others would care either, but I can't speak for them.

The only thing smell actually does to make me change how I play the game is that if I kill an animal and want to harvest it, I'll first kill the nearby zombies or else I'll harvest quickly and immediately drop it in my vehicle and then leave if I don't want to deal with them. But those are extremely minor things. Other than those, smell doesn't have any actual impact on how I play the game and certainly doesn't make it more challenging. I'm not saying it can't be good, but it just doesn't change how I play other than that minor thing with harvesting a corpse. I think it could definitely be adjusted and improved if they are willing to do so. But I'm not suggesting it should be removed.

 

[Old Crow]

Well, to be fair, the idea is that you might not want to eat when you're in the middle of a POI as it can draw a lot of zombies toward you if they are spawned already. So that is where he's looking at it being something you need to think about.

However, this doesn't really work in reality. Zombies that aren't spawned can't react to you eating food. So if you kill the room you're in and then pause to eat, you're not very likely to attract many zombies. You might get a couple from outside if they happen to be really close to the POI, and if there are any spawned zombies that you haven't yet seen/killed, they could be attracted to it, but if you can complete the POI, it isn't going to hurt to have zombies in the next room (if they are spawned) come to attack you because you ate something. It wouldn't be any more difficult than if you went into that room to kill them. About the only time it could cause any increased challenge is if you draw some in from outside, but you'd need a large smell area for that to happen. And I thought I saw faatal mention that smell is reduced when inside, so that is even less likely to happen. You're actually more likely to have trouble from screamers than from eating food. So in theory, it sounds like it could make you think about whether or not to eat, but the reality is that most people are just going to eat when they would normally eat and if they have to deal with some zombies because of it, they'll just do so. So it doesn't really make you put any extra thought into whether or not to eat. At least, I don't see any reason not to eat when I'm hungry, no matter where I am or what is around me. And I really don't think most others would care either, but I can't speak for them.

The only thing smell actually does to make me change how I play the game is that if I kill an animal and want to harvest it, I'll first kill the nearby zombies or else I'll harvest quickly and immediately drop it in my vehicle and then leave if I don't want to deal with them. But those are extremely minor things. Other than those, smell doesn't have any actual impact on how I play the game and certainly doesn't make it more challenging. I'm not saying it can't be good, but it just doesn't change how I play other than that minor thing with harvesting a corpse. I think it could definitely be adjusted and improved if they are willing to do so. But I'm not suggesting it should be removed.

I'm not suggesting it be removed either, but it could use some tweaking. That said, I made a hunter build specifically to test the Smell system out, and I'm enjoying it a lot. I always carry paper and grass on me now so I'm prepared to wrap up the spoils of my hunts. It feels not just more immersive, but like I'm actually taking survival actions.

 

[theFlu]

So if you kill the room you're in and then pause to eat, you're not very likely to attract many zombies.

Looks like smells don't even wake up sleepers (from video, not tested myself). The only thing it might change for me is putting a stack of steaks on my toolbar to nibble on while running.. but I think I'll end up using it as a lure more often than avoiding the effect

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

why would they be attracted to your vegetable or fruit food?

It doesn't make sense to me, but if they restrict smell to raw meat and foods that include meat alone, I imagine the temptation will be just to go vegetarian, have your pears and eat them, too. I wouldn't think it would matter if some players chose to do that or not, but others might feel it discourages hunting or negates meat recipes or something. What matters, I would think, is the frequency of the occurence of being chased down by zombies just because you ate something. That's not something you can wrap up in paper or put on your bike. There's no offset. faatal says it has a short duration. I'll have to test a while and see whether, playing normally, eating feels like it has to be micromanaged or not. That's what it would come down to for me anyway.

 

[grz__]

It doesn't make sense to me, but if they restrict smell to raw meat and foods that include meat alone, I imagine the temptation will be just to go vegetarian, have your pears and eat them, too. I wouldn't think it would matter if some players chose to do that or not, but others might feel it discourages hunting or negates meat recipes or something.

Basically, that's it. Plus, the game is full of things that don't make sense. We could make a list, but it's not as bad as it seems, at least not the vegetables that don't feed much, like pears. I haven't tried the vegetable stew yet, but basically, it disappears before you know it. If you have it set up so that the zombies don't run, you can pretty much ignore it.

 

[meganoth]

I haven't really seen anyone saying that the smell system is bad. Some of us just think that certain foods shouldn't smell. In your example of cat food, I think you aren't considering this in your example...

The cat food hasn't been eaten already. It isn't in your stomach. Could they smell it from blocks away if you had eaten it? I really doubt it. They'd have to smell it on your breath, which is definitely not likely from blocks away. And even then, it would only be while you have your mouth open. I've mentioned in another post that having the smell be there for a short time after eating when breathing hard (out of stamina) would make sense and then not have it smell after eating when you have stamina. Or if you stay in the same place as where you ate it, it could leave a lingering smell, but if you left the area, the smell would remain in that area rather than follow you (unless you are breathing heavily, if you wanted to implement that kind of thing).

You are arguing for realism but actually don't know anything beyond layman knowledge about that topic, right? So you doubt it, others bring up how good dogs are at smelling, and smelling not only food but also learn to identify the reason why they are suddenly smelling food.

Me, I never had a dog, I can only see two layman fractions arguing over something only a scientific experiment or an expert could really decide conclusively. I think this question is beyond what we can really decide with common sense alone.

About the range, even if that were somewhat inflated, it might be for gameplay purposes, so that you get wandering zombies from the street when you are in a POI. Without it there would be a lot less surprises.

In the end, I don't think anyone suggests not having raw meat or meat-based food smell. And certain other foods like chili could smell. But other kinds of food don't make much sense. Take corn or potatoes as an example. Zombies aren't targeting your corn or potatoes in your farm, so why are they targeting you when you eat them?

Here you seem to disregard what others have been saying. The zombies don't target the pears, potatoes or corn but the smell and specifically change in smell from people and food when it is eaten! If you want to challenge the other side you have to explain why this is impossible, not bring up zombies that don't react to potatoes in a farm. This has already been explained sort of.

We don't have fruit trees, so pears don't have the same kind of example, but pears have very little smell and I can't really see zombies being that interested in the smell of pears. And that example is one that seems to be a common thing people think doesn't make sense.

You could make it so certain foods have smell and others don't, which doesn't worsen the smell system, but instead it makes it more interesting. Why? Because now you have to decide whether or not to make the food you prefer to make (I think most people make meat-based foods unless they are making vegetable stew) or instead make food you normally don't make so you don't have smell when eating it. Having to strategize what you are cooking adds to the smell system rather than taking away from it, imo.

Actually having some food that not attracts zombies would be a nice addition for gameplay purposes. But it needs to have low food values and would be expensive to make, i.e. definitely need canned food in the recipe so you can't mass produce it with a farm.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Basically, that's it. Plus, the game is full of things that don't make sense. We could make a list, but it's not as bad as it seems, at least not the vegetables that don't feed much, like pears. I haven't tried the vegetable stew yet, but basically, it disappears before you know it. If you have it set up so that the zombies don't run, you can pretty much ignore it.

Well, not really. The people who chose to go vegetarian would be trying to avoid it altogether in which case, they might as well turn it off.

 

[grz__]

Well, not really. The people who chose to go vegetarian would be trying to avoid it altogether in which case, they might as well turn it off.

If someone doesn't want to deal with the smell at all, it's better to turn it off. I don't mind if they reduce the intensity of the vegetables, but the thing is that zombies are attracted to food that gives off a smell, not because it's meat. If we completely eliminate the smell of vegetables, basically people are going to choose the vegetable stew, and those who want smell will have to force themselves to eat meat, So I don't see why people wouldn't deactivate the smell if they're going to choose vegetables to avoid dealing with the smell.

 

[theFlu]

First, I'm mainly just happy to have another mechanic to play around. I've played for a day, and I'm already dreaming of aoe-farming the wasteland .. A good meal, a motorcycle and a few boombooms...

I don't mind that veggies attract zeds, mainly from that game-mechanics pov. But it might also become an interesting mechanic to play around to have "safe" foods and "non-safe" foods. If you're suitably afraid, you'll eat your meats at home, and save your veggie stew for the road. Sounds somewhat immersive, and most of the good foods are meat-based anyway. No reason to change that now ..

 

[Gamida]

Well, not really. The people who chose to go vegetarian would be trying to avoid it altogether in which case, they might as well turn it off.

I don't feel you need to turn something off if you avoid it.
I mean I avoid breaking my leg but I wouldn't turn it off. Same with zombie dogs. I REALLY avoid them lol but I wouldn't turn them off.
Some might enjoy the pursuit of a vegetarian diet to avoid smelling.

 

[Roland]

Yesterday I ventured about 150 meters into the snow biome without protective gear to get a supply drop. I was freezing by time I got to it and it had a vegetable stew in it which I immediately ate because the cold had severely reduced my hunger bar as well. I was hoping it would have a buff against cold but it did not. I ran back to the forest biome and when I looked behind me after crossing the border with an audible "whew!" There were 2 bears, a wolf, and about 7 zombies running towards me attracted to the smell. I gasped and turned around and ran making it to the top of a shop just in time before all the animals and zombies arrived. Theshop had a ladder so I dispatched the zombies as they came up but the bears and wolf were still down below and even after my smell debuff disappeared they still wouldn't forget about me.

Finally I jumped off the roof on the other side and ran through another house and onto another roof. Only one of the bears followed but I eventually lost him by running around and between a few more buildings before getting back to my base and then heading to the trader.

I'll take enemy creatures able to smell vegetables for an experience like that every time.

 

[Adam the Waster]

From what I can tell from the comments, everyone thinks the overall smell system is good, but could do with a little refining.

All I need is maybe a wash system and maybe a better nose icon but even then it doesn't bug me

 

[Rotor]

I'll take enemy creatures able to smell vegetables for an experience like that every time.

Sounds like survival to me. I like it....or already what I've read.

Although with dead is dead, there maybe a lot of noob diary posts from me in the future.

 

[Dead Wombat]

Well, not really. The people who chose to go vegetarian would be trying to avoid it altogether in which case, they might as well turn it off.

but can you turn it off... my food was at 23% so i ate and every zombie about 10 of them came crashing down get a turn off smell feature jeus i just started out and every $%@$% zombie within 100m comes calling at a run frenzied?

 

[Riamus]

Looks like smells don't even wake up sleepers (from video, not tested myself). The only thing it might change for me is putting a stack of steaks on my toolbar to nibble on while running.. but I think I'll end up using it as a lure more often than avoiding the effect

Yeah, I wasn't sure if it would wake any sleepers up even if they were spawned so I didn't include that. I had a feeling it wouldn't but didn't want to give wrong information. Thanks for noting it.

It doesn't make sense to me, but if they restrict smell to raw meat and foods that include meat alone, I imagine the temptation will be just to go vegetarian, have your pears and eat them, too. I wouldn't think it would matter if some players chose to do that or not, but others might feel it discourages hunting or negates meat recipes or something. What matters, I would think, is the frequency of the occurence of being chased down by zombies just because you ate something. That's not something you can wrap up in paper or put on your bike. There's no offset. faatal says it has a short duration. I'll have to test a while and see whether, playing normally, eating feels like it has to be micromanaged or not. That's what it would come down to for me anyway.

Hunting is already not really necessary after the early game unless you want to do it. If you prefer that over farming, you can choose to go that route, and many do. Or you can farm and make vegetable stew and never hunt again, and many do that already as well. By having a choice to make - risk of being attacked versus no risk (or less risk) - you give players a reason to actually think about what they are cooking and decide what they want to make based on those risks. Maybe some will never hunt again, but you're still going to get many (probably most) who hunt now who will continue to hunt and continue to make meat-based foods because that's what they want to make. Also, meat-based foods are the only foods that are at the top tier of foods. Spaghetti, Tuna, the new honey brisket or whatever it is... those are all meat-based. So there is still incentive to make meat-based food.

In the end, giving players a reason to think about what they are cooking instead of just cooking the best of the best (or at least the best that doesn't require canned food) is a good thing. How players respond to the choice - still making meat-based foods or not - doesn't make having more reasons to think about what you're doing being a bad thing.

As far as smell following you around, the highest concentration of smell remains with the containers the food was in (assuming you didn't spill it on yourself). If you then drive away in a vehicle (they all are open-air), the air circulation will have quickly dispersed almost all remaining smell that remains with the person. You can drive a kilometer and still have the smell on you in the current form in this game, but that wouldn't really be true if you did so in real life other than breath smell, which again happens when the mouth is open, so no all the time. Yes, there are foods that have a very strong smell that might last longer. But what foods are we eating that have such a strong smell that would remain if you were to drive away from the area where you ate the food? A couple could be that way. Tuna, for example. Most would not. And if they made different foods have different strengths (range) of smell and different durations of smell, then that would be enough even if they don't remove smell from certain foods. For example (these are semi-random numbers and not intended to represent the best numbers), if tuna had a radius of 50m with a single serving and a duration of 60 seconds, something like pears might have a radius of 10 with a duration of 10 seconds per serving. That would be far more realistic and immersive than the current method of "let's have pears and corn and potatoes smell like tuna."

In the end, I don't care too much about about realism in the game. But when something gets too far away from what makes sense, then it becomes grating. Improving the smell system in ways that have been mentioned would not have a negative impact on those who like the smell system. Unless someone can explain why having something like pears not smell or have minimal smell would create a negative impact on the smell system for them? So it doesn't make sense why people are so against the idea that the smell system gets tweaked. They act like people are trying to get rid of it.

And honestly, if you are are paying any attention to your surroundings, it's not hard to eat without worrying at all about being swarmed. A quick 360 tells you if anything is within 50-100m of you. If there is, you either don't eat until you go further from them or you kill them first or you just eat and deal with them. You might have a few hidden behind trees or buildings, but there shouldn't be so many that you can't see if you look around yourself that you can't deal with them. And in most cases after the early game (you won't normally see bears and dire wolves and stuff in the early game), you'll have a vehicle. Since smell inside a POI isn't normally going to bring enemies from outside unless they are very close to the POI, inside a POI doesn't really have that risk. And if you're outside a POI, you are normally at least somewhat close to your vehicle. Certainly close enough to run to it and leave if you did have a swarm coming for you. The idea that you'll die because of eating makes little sense to me. It screams of not paying attention to your surroundings.

 

[faatal]

Smells that represent sudden and unusual changes in their environment, even if very slight, should attract them. Such are the signs of The Living. The zombies are all possessed with the remains of a human brain. Potentially they catch a whiff of something, and bubbling up from the dead tissue in their brain is "That is canned peaches. New. Freshly eaten. THE LIVING!"

My dogs can tell when I've eaten something recently, even if they weren't around to hear me eat it and I'm nowhere near where I ate it.

Studies have shown that while prolonged heroine abuse has deleterious effects on brain tissue, that olfactory response is sometimes strongly enhanced.

Yeah, I can absolutely make sense of the current implementation and I can do it without digging very deeply into the fantasy underpinnings of zombies.

Still, I think tweaking it would be a good idea. Game-wise the amount of smell should correlate to how beneficial the food eaten has been and it should stack (does it stack? I haven't looked and I can't tell). Except: eating hobo stew should remove smell; it may have a powerful smell, but it smells of rotten meat and zombies should ignore that.

Yes. Those are pretty much my thoughts. Smells trigger latent memories that are associated with humans, which they want to eat. Same reason zombies prefer doors, as they remember that is how you enter structures. I peeled some oranges yesterday and thought, wow these smell, and I do not have a great sense of smell!

I do think some of the food smell range numbers should be adjusted for more variety.

 

[Adam the Waster]

Yes. Those are pretty much my thoughts. Smells trigger latent memories that are associated with humans, which they want to eat. Same reason zombies prefer doors, as they remember that is how you enter structures. I peeled some oranges yesterday and thought, wow these smell, and I do not have a great sense of smell!

I do think some of the food smell range numbers should be adjusted for more variety.

Well im not complaining about it because I really like the changes I just think veggies should give less smelly and having other foods you hold smell.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Sounds like survival to me. I like it....or already what I've read.

Seems like opinions are split between "realism" and abstract immersion. My interest in everything is aesthetic, so I'll let others argue over the mechanics. I'll just be over here with my eyes glazing over.

i just started out and every $%@$% zombie within 100m comes calling at a run frenzied

I imagine people with more interest in combat will want it to be more frequent, perhaps even actively luring them in (as theFlu suggested), while others might prefer more peace and quiet. From what I'm hearing, there is no mechanical way, e.g. a setting or gameplay offset to govern the frequency (is there?) and it's not like the situation with screamer or, even, bees, which is why I'll be testing the frequency and management angle. If I'm swamped too much (because, as Old Crow suggested, you may not always be able choose when and where to eat) and it has to be micromanaged, that might detract from other aspects of gameplay, imo. I can easily see it becoming tiresome after the newness of the feature wears off. Guess we'll see.

 

[grz__]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if it would wake any sleepers up even if they were spawned so I didn't include that. I had a feeling it wouldn't but didn't want to give wrong information. Thanks for noting it.


Hunting is already not really necessary after the early game unless you want to do it. If you prefer that over farming, you can choose to go that route, and many do. Or you can farm and make vegetable stew and never hunt again, and many do that already as well. By having a choice to make - risk of being attacked versus no risk (or less risk) - you give players a reason to actually think about what they are cooking and decide what they want to make based on those risks. Maybe some will never hunt again, but you're still going to get many (probably most) who hunt now who will continue to hunt and continue to make meat-based foods because that's what they want to make. Also, meat-based foods are the only foods that are at the top tier of foods. Spaghetti, Tuna, the new honey brisket or whatever it is... those are all meat-based. So there is still incentive to make meat-based food.

In the end, giving players a reason to think about what they are cooking instead of just cooking the best of the best (or at least the best that doesn't require canned food) is a good thing. How players respond to the choice - still making meat-based foods or not - doesn't make having more reasons to think about what you're doing being a bad thing.

As far as smell following you around, the highest concentration of smell remains with the containers the food was in (assuming you didn't spill it on yourself). If you then drive away in a vehicle (they all are open-air), the air circulation will have quickly dispersed almost all remaining smell that remains with the person. You can drive a kilometer and still have the smell on you in the current form in this game, but that wouldn't really be true if you did so in real life other than breath smell, which again happens when the mouth is open, so no all the time. Yes, there are foods that have a very strong smell that might last longer. But what foods are we eating that have such a strong smell that would remain if you were to drive away from the area where you ate the food? A couple could be that way. Tuna, for example. Most would not. And if they made different foods have different strengths (range) of smell and different durations of smell, then that would be enough even if they don't remove smell from certain foods. For example (these are semi-random numbers and not intended to represent the best numbers), if tuna had a radius of 50m with a single serving and a duration of 60 seconds, something like pears might have a radius of 10 with a duration of 10 seconds per serving. That would be far more realistic and immersive than the current method of "let's have pears and corn and potatoes smell like tuna."

In the end, I don't care too much about about realism in the game. But when something gets too far away from what makes sense, then it becomes grating. Improving the smell system in ways that have been mentioned would not have a negative impact on those who like the smell system. Unless someone can explain why having something like pears not smell or have minimal smell would create a negative impact on the smell system for them? So it doesn't make sense why people are so against the idea that the smell system gets tweaked. They act like people are trying to get rid of it.

And honestly, if you are are paying any attention to your surroundings, it's not hard to eat without worrying at all about being swarmed. A quick 360 tells you if anything is within 50-100m of you. If there is, you either don't eat until you go further from them or you kill them first or you just eat and deal with them. You might have a few hidden behind trees or buildings, but there shouldn't be so many that you can't see if you look around yourself that you can't deal with them. And in most cases after the early game (you won't normally see bears and dire wolves and stuff in the early game), you'll have a vehicle. Since smell inside a POI isn't normally going to bring enemies from outside unless they are very close to the POI, inside a POI doesn't really have that risk. And if you're outside a POI, you are normally at least somewhat close to your vehicle. Certainly close enough to run to it and leave if you did have a swarm coming for you. The idea that you'll die because of eating makes little sense to me. It screams of not paying attention to your surroundings.

Nah, I think we have completely opposite ideas of what's fun. I don't see the fun in “thinking up a strategy and cooking safe food,” which is nothing more than consciously turning off the feature so you don't have to deal with it. Nothing against it if that's how you like it.

For me, the fun is having it active, with the zombies getting excited and it being frenetic and intense.


Also, remember that there are many things in the game that are unrealistic or break the immersion...